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I have always thought polygamy has the potential to be very enriching to children. You never have to look for daycare or a sitter, and they have a wider range of adults to learn from.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Now, let me clarify. The 'problem' I said I had with polygamy (by which I meant 'polygyny' Thank you Stray) was a societal one, not a legal one.
Meaning, I'm actually okay with legal polyamory, though I think it would cause some socialogical difficulty, moreso than gay two-person marriages.
I think our society is nearly ready to deal with same sex marriages, but not as close to accepting plural marriage. Maybe if they have a sitcom called "Will, Grace and Gerald" in the next decade or so...
BUt seriously, I tend to separate how I think things should be in the long term from how I think things should be in the short term, AND from what should ultimately be legal.
Like, I believe people should be able to get reasonably safe abortions without the courts nosing into their reasons, though personally I think abortion is not the moral choice in most situations. So, my hope is that society as a whole would be more responsible on the personal level, and less reliant on the state to tell us what to do.
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Still trying to work our particular situation out to the cofort and benefit of all three spouses, but want to remind everyone that there are practicing polygamists on the 'Rack. Lisa
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Yay! Another one! I thought of starting a thread to ask if there were any other poly folk on here, but decided I'm still too much the n00b to be that forward yet.
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That was a thread by plaid. But it was about intentional communities in the “sharing living arrangements, labor, and economic resources” sense, not polyamory.
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You'd get to hear the good, the bad, the ugly and the amazing about it. We did not come together for religious reasons, moreso out of a desire to be less consumer-minded (why have 1 refrigerator for each two people, when 4 or 6 people can store all their food in one?), and as a support to the two-income necessity. 1 person at home for the kids, two people working to support the family.
For those who were so supportive last week, we hashed a bunch of stuff out, and are slowly working on other stuff. I'm not quite ready to talk about any of that yet, and frankly am still pretty wounded. Still a firm believer in the concept, though.
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Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that intentional communities have poly, but that it was another thread about a "not mainstream" trend in social relationships.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I'm frankly curious what the make-up of the poly relationships is-- Man-Woman-Woman, Woman-Man-Man, MWMW, etc. But no need to answer if you are not comfortable talking about it. I wouldn't want to make someone uncomfortable just to satisfy my idle curiosity.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Do you mean DocCoyote's and my relationships specifically, or poly relationships in general? Cause in general, they can take almost any form, the three you mentioned and lots more besides. My own relationship right now is a hierarchical or primary/secondary model. The marriage is the primary relationship and takes first priority. We each have varying numbers of outside relationships (right now he has one girlfriend and I have one boyfriend, but those numbers change over time), which are secondary...which does not at all mean that these people aren't important to us or that we don't love them as much, just that they don't live with us and hence they're somewhat less involved in our day-to-day life.
I'm happy to clarify more if you have any more specific questions Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Polygamy does not necessarily create more children. However, polygamy does decrease the adult:child ratio.
For example, ten people--five men and five women--were stranded on a desert island. Assume all the women are capable of having one child per year.
Scenario 1 traditional marriage: There would be five couples. One year later, there would be five children. There are two adults responsible for each child (2:1).
Scenario 2 polygamy: One of the men (let's call him Beren) took all the women. One year later, there would still be, at most, five children. There are six adults responsible for five children (6:5).
So while the number of children has not increased, the number of adults responsible for children has. Of course, as I mentioned before, there might be certain child care advantages to polygamy. But I haven't seen any studies on that theory so it remains pure speculation.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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[aside] Folks, please forgive my "widely rejected" remark in the first post. I meant rejected by the public (as homosexuality used to be), but now that I know that there are those who practice polygamy here at Hatrack, perhaps I should rephrase the question: "Just HOW widely rejected IS polygamy?" It seems that it's probably less than I thought! [/aside]
Now returning you to your regularly scheduled discussion. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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vwiggin a 2:1 ratio divides out to 2. 6/5=1.2
If they each have two children under both scenarios then 2:2 = 1 adult per child while 6/10= 0.6 adults per child. How can the latter possibly be desirable? Even if you leave 2 parents taking care of the 10 children and free up 4 to hunt and gather you haven't gotten that far ahead.
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Now if you do practice some population control, and have three adults and three children, and you leave one of the parents watching 3 kids, while the other two work, I could see advantages. But only if deliberate population control is in effect.
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Hence the fact that, in non-Westernized/Third World countries that practice polygyny, it's always the wealthiest men who have more than one wife, and the poorest who have none. And most of them just have one. In Westernized countries with women in the workforce and readily available birth control, of course, it's a whole other story.
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AND you have four other guys on the island trying to get one of the women, or, heaven help us, children. Or else maybe humping each other or talking to volleyballs.
Either way, it doesn't seem fair to them if they'd rather be with a woman. So, the four other guys kill Beren, have one wife each and fight over the floater.
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That's a good point AJ. I'm assuming that the people in my model are rational actors and would not have more children than they can support. But of course, people are not always rational.
Many people practice polygamy for religious reaons, and their religion may encourage having as many children as possible. In these cases, your scenario is certainly the more likely one.
Olivetta - In my island fantasy, um, I mean scenario, Beren is loved by all! Men, women, children, and chipmunks!
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I find it hard to believe that a hetero guy can love another hetero guy enough to be gracious about being forced into celibacy wile Beren has a wife for every night of the working week. But okay. Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:I'm happy to clarify more if you have any more specific questions
Alright then, I’ll ask. Do you have a relationship with your husband’s girlfriend, and he with your boyfriend? I don’t mean in a sexual way, but do you do things like have dinner or just hang out or anything as a threesome or foursome? Or are the “secondary” relationships just something you and your husband know about and are OK with?
Posts: 48 | Registered: Feb 2004
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It is absurd for the government to create a LAW that will not allow a man to take several women as his wife, and it is absurd to disallow one woman to marry several husbands.
The government has no grounds on which to base this LAW and its punishment.
...but hey, the government is now the church so what can you say?
Posts: 2752 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: ...but hey, the government is now the church so what can you say?
It's always been the church since the founding of the nation, it's just a question now of continuing it's influence and to what degree if any.
Church being a part of State isn't a new idea. The Constitutional Ammendment with religion listed in it is old. The Supreme Court decision interpreting it and setting their precedent of it meaning "separation of church and state" for all future cases is relatively new.
EDIT: the earliest I could find is 1948, but there could be earlier cases.
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It must be very young men (who have never actually lived with a woman) who think that polygamy is a good idea. I can barely handle all the honey-do projects one wife comes up with.
I think polyandry is a much better idea. Share the workload over several men. Then I'd have some time to goof off.
Posts: 173 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Olivetta said: Guys who aren't getting any are statistically more likely to do crazy, destructive stuff.
All of these other types of 'relationships' with men/women make it less and less likely I'll find a normal woman. With that said, I'm going to be doing crazy and destructive stuff.
I say relationships because, I don't think marriage should be dictated by law. Originally it wasn't and only recently (last 100-200) years has it been. Before that, it was mostly by religion, and in other cases of adultry.
Still, I can't make a stable relationship with most of my family members, how on earth would I have multiple relations with other 'partners'?
Also stated, Child abuse is a big topic when it comes to these types of things; Personally I feel that we should find the source of a healthy environment for children to learn and grow. A said environment in it's most basic form would be one of each party / relation:
1 Woman - Mother
1 Man - Father
I say this because that is what is needed for that child to reproduce and to stay in the gene pool. Any other sort of combination results in a child that doesn't learn from the get go how things about parents and social structure work. Not to say that it can't be taught to them but to say that the simplest way of things is much easier for a child to understand.
quote:The government has no grounds on which to base this LAW and its punishment.
...but hey, the government is now the church so what can you say?
Sure, as long as YOU say so. Never mind that people have listed several different grounds. We don't need the courtesy of refutation or anything like that.
quote: Do you have a relationship with your husband’s girlfriend, and he with your boyfriend? I don’t mean in a sexual way, but do you do things like have dinner or just hang out or anything as a threesome or foursome?
Yes, we do those kinds of things from time to time. One of the rules is that we have to meet the spouse's other partners and "approve" before they can do anything more sexual than kissing and snuggling. Ideally I'd like his girlfriends to be people I like and can be friends with, and that's usually the case, but if not, then they're at least polite to me and respectful of the primary relationship. Same goes for him and my boyfriends. And depending on ours and our partners' availability, we do things together socially when we can, like dinner or coffee or movie night or a club event.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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So if they legalize polygamy, will there be people from the conservative polygamy side of things who will oppose gay polymarriage? "Polygamy is the marriage between one man and two or more women!" I only ask because I know of a polygamous relationship with three women. It has interesting dynamics and I don't see it lasting, but there you go. Just wondering if there are polygamist purists...
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Our family is sort of non-traditional polygamist. As I stated, we're not together for religious reasons. Originally we planned for an intentional community of 4 adults, but my then-husband decided to bow out, emotionally and psychologically. And then there were 3.
As David says, "Everyone thinks I have the dream life, 2 women, all that sex... But really, I got to have double the PMS, post-partum depresion, and all that sex." Add to that the fact we've have their 3 grown girls living with us at any given time, and he's been seriously outnumbered.
Honestly, though, it's hard work. Period. Think of all the emotional situations you have to compromise about as a couple, then add another point of view. But when it works, there is an incredible support system.
B and I are not sexual with each other, that's all I have to say about that.
Stray, I admire your candor in discussing your relationship.
I'm working stupid hours again, so it'll be tomorrow morning before I get back online. I'd actually enjoy comparing and contrasting Stray's situation with ours.
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And it isn't even all that much more sex, really...poly people still have jobs and all the other stuff of ordinary life to attend to, and we don't shag any faster than mono people, so there's definitely a limit to how much more sex we can have. All the other relationship baggage (birthdays and anniversaries to remember, personal crises to deal with, "those talks" to have) increase exponentially whereas the sex only increases logarithmically for a while and then flatlines. I think it's well worth it, though, because the amount of love in my life increases right along with the difficulties, and I wouldn't want to trade that for anything.
I'm actually really enjoying this discussion, and comparing my relationship with DocCoyote's I was a bit hesitant to bring up the topic, since I'm new here and feared getting a response of "Ewww, you're an evil disgusting pervert and you should go crawl under a rock and die!" but now I know Hatrack is better than that.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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For those in poly relationships, do you want them "legal" or accepted? Do you want there to be a status with them that equate's marriage? How would that look? Like many in the gay population, there aer some ways to make gay unions more "civil" (in terms of shared rights, property, etc.) so do those same means apply to 3 or more? Would some of the current gay marriage bans effect these for you, as well? For example, Ohio has on its ballot an atypical gay marriage amendment. Not only do they want to state that marriage is between a man and woman only, but (and here is the unusual exception that makes our states the strictist) it also makes it illegal to create situations, laws, rules, etc. that could parallel benefits of being married. Meaning, all those private corporations that offer domestic partner benefits...gotta stop. Lots of progressive companies that want to have the widest possible access to potential employees offer such benefits to their people but now, in Ohio, they will no longer be allowed to do so. Would this be a barrier for a poly relationship that wanted to "legitamize" their relationship (meaning, you want more out of it than the relationship...shared custody of kids, shared benefits, etc.).
quote: It must be very young men (who have never actually lived with a woman) who think that polygamy is a good idea. I can barely handle all the honey-do projects one wife comes up with.
Amen, amen.
I wonder what the Heart Attack rate for Men in Polygamous lifestyles is.
My heart can barely take the load it has....
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I can't remember the name of the comic, but someone in an online polyamory community I frequent posted a one-panel comic a while back. The caption was something like "why you rarely see female polygamists" and it was a picture of three or four men sitting on the couch watching TV together, and a woman standing in the doorway saying "So...none of you took the trash out?" Very true, and it made my day Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Whether or not you want to call it poly, I'm finding myself in a situation that might be considered such.
I'm friends with, and seeing, a woman who is also friends with, and seeing, two men. It's not impossible I could find myself further intertwined, but I don't know yet. It's not poly in the sense that these aren't relationships first, friends second. It's more friends with benefits as long as the benefits aren't hurting anyone. And it's less accountability than should be in a poly relationship. But it's working out just fine.
I have some experience with observing people in poly situations. There are right and wrong reasons to be poly, and not everyone can fit into it. For one thing, jealousy is even more destructive and more of a possibility in a poly relationship. That's, in my opinion, the deciding factor in what makes you a poly kind of person or not.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Poly people get jealous too, certainly, and jealousy can be a destructive force no matter what kind of relationship you're in. (By the way, fil, I'm not ignoring your question above, I just need to think on it a bit.) I think the opportunity for jealousy to arise within a relationship is entirely dependent on how secure the people feel in that relationship, because jealousy is actually a symptom of insecurity. I have never felt any jealousy over my husband, because I just know deep down in my bones that he will never leave me for someone else. I've gotten jealous over other partners because I don't have that same deep-down certainty of them, or rather of my relationship with them. Sometimes the jealousy/insecurity was well-founded, sometimes not. I've had to do a fair amount of work on my coping skills for when it crops up, but I'm gradually learning to just let the feeling happen, process it and ride it out, and learn what I can from it.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stray, not to be insulting (and if I am, tell me!), but the way you describe your situation doesn't sound polygamous. It sounds more like one of those "open" relationships. You are married and yet each spouse has another significant relationship outside of that (that change from time to time). It is consenting for sure. It has boundaries but they don't sound like a poly "family" where it is one family unit with more than two adults. It sounds like you guys swing and I know enough couples that do that (some consenting, obviously others that do not...again, not trying to insult as "swing" carries too many negative conotations yet no other word seems to work). I had assumed poly relationships were all "equal" in that there was no primary spouse and so on. Just looking for the clarification. Isn't this what is called polyamourous...meaning a varied love life, but not really life-long connections for the benefit of a single family unit. At least that is what it sounds like to me.
posted
Well, my brother's wife had a terrible experience with a 'poly' community/situation. Her (then) husband suggested she visit some sites on the internet, and get information about it, because he was interested. She went along with him, basically following his lead. He documented all the sites she visited and who she went out with, etc. Even though it was his idea and he was more involved than she was, he was able to convince a judge that it was all her doing. So, when he divorced her (probably his plan all along) he got the kids and everything EXCEPT most of his debt.
He then married the woman he was supposedly going 'poly' with.
All I'm saying is that if anybody is reading this and thinking it sounds nifty... Well, I would advise against it, even though I'm sure there are people who make a fine go of it.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I suppose you're right, fil, my relationship isn't really polygamous right now, in the sense of a family with more than two "spice." We are polyamorous, meaning we have more than one relationship at a time, but there's a distinction between polyamory and swinging--swinging is primarily about recreational sex, though friendships and deeper bonds do sometimes form. Polyamory is primarily about close, loving relationships, although there is usually sex involved too (that's what differentiates it from just being good friends). But the sex is the main focus of swinging, and a secondary focus of polyamory. Of course there can be overlap between the two groups, but they're different things.
Ideally, I'd like to someday transition to a more "truly polygamous" relationship model in the future, if-when we find the right people. Right now my ideal configuration is a quad, two males and two females, not necessarily any homosexual activity going on. I know I'm most comfortable when I have two male "co-primaries," and I think it would be nice to have another woman around to help ride herd on the guys But I have to reluctantly admit that finding the exact right combination of people who would work out well in the long term is kind of slim. Ah well, I can hope, can't I? Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oh my lord, Olivetta, that's awful! But I do agree with Jim-Me, that the issue was really his dishonesty more than polyamory per se. I suppose he could have just as easily coaxed her into trying S&M, and then used that pretext to screw her over because she's obviously too much of a sick pervert to be allowed to keep her children There are definitely good and bad reasons to get into poly; the watchwords of the community are honesty, respect, communication, and ethics, and it sounds like that guy violated every one of them.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I think Olivetta wasn't so much pointing it out as a problem inherent in experimenting with poly, but more as a warning to how it might be used against one person. Stray's analogy to S&M is a similar type of warning.
Having a sexual relationship outside the marriage is going to be looked down on in divorce proceedings - this is a fact of life. It would behoove anyone participating in such activities to have proof of consent and mutuality before proceeding.
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I thought of starting a thread to ask if there were any other poly folk on here, but decided I'm still too much the n00b to be that forward yet.
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Beren! You didn't get the first wife's permission yet! ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
"So...none of you took the trash out?" ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
There are definitely good and bad reasons to get into poly; the watchwords of the community are honesty, respect, communication, and ethics, and it sounds like that guy violated every one of them.
