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Author Topic: Undecided Voters? We pander to YOU!
vwiggin
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If you are still undecided and there is any information you would like to know that will help you make up your mind, please let us know.

If you were undecided but had actually settled on a particular candidate based on something you've read on this (or any other) forum, I would be interested in hearing your story as well. [Smile]

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vwiggin
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I'm interested in finding out what undecided voters are looking for. Liberals and conservatives, feel free to jump in and provide what you believe may sway the undecided voters your way. Just please don't post anything like this:

"I'm undecided on whether Bush's incompetence is feigned or genetically inherited" or "I'm undecided as to Kerry's war crimes, did he shoot the VC before or after he ate those babies?"

[ October 10, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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How are Kerry's plans for Iraq, as he has revealed them, substantively different from Bush's plans?
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vwiggin
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That is a great question! I suspect it is one that bothers a lot of undecided voters. [Smile]

Based on my recollection of the last two debates, the major difference I remember is that Kerry wants to build a broader coalition by allowing foreign companies from countries that were not part of the "coalition of the willing" to bid on reconstruction contracts in Iraq.

I think as more foreign countries have financial interests in Iraq, there will be more international support for Iraq's reconstruction, leading to less costs for America and more legitimacy for Iraq's government.

There might be other major differences, but this is the one that stands out in my mind.

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Misha McBride
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I was undecided until I saw these Constitution class movies.
I'm voting for this guy. Seriously.

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vwiggin
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No more swing voters besides MPH?

Misha, I still have nightmares from my old con law lectures. So I'm going to skip the videos, for now. [Wink]

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Tammy
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I do not wish to vote for Kerry or Bush!
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lem
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Did Kerry really visit North Vietnam and talk to the leaders during the Vietnam War?

What was discussed?

Before I choose a Commander-In-Chief, I want to understand in what way he (someday she) interacts with our opponents. I have heard too much second-hand partisan rantings to determine if that was treasonous or if he was trying to work out the peace without compromising our national security. I really want to know what was said/planned between them.

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Alucard...
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I'm undecided as to whether I should stick my head in the sand for 4 years or actually vote and regret my decision to do so.

New Bumper Sticker Marketing Idea:

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for Bush or Kerry OR Nader!

[ October 11, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]

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lem
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Favorite line from the TV show Monk:

quote:
I don't vote. It only encourages them.

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skillery
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Which candidate is most likely to pull the U.S. out of the U.N., close down the Federal Reserve, abolish farm subsidies, open the border with Mexico, put a stop to federally funded abortions, and call an end to foreign aid?
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Tammy
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Are you joking Skillery?

Not going to happen!

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skillery
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I'm not joking.
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Dan_raven
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lem--No.

When Kerry was you he volunteered to fight for his county, and was sent to Vietnam.

There he was a highly decorated soldier and, from most accounts, fought bravely.

When he returned he had seen some things that were being ignored or kept from the country as a whole. He listened to other veterans who had seen some very terrible things. He decided to fight against the war, protesting and complaining.

He went to Paris, where there were peace talks being negotiated. There, it is said, he spoke with representatives of North Vietnam, even though we were still at war and he was still a reservist officer.

He did not do this to sell out our country or surrender vital information. He did it to encourage the peace talks that he believed were purposefully being stalled by the military and the administration.

If you believe that standing up against the government about a war that was being fought badly and unjustly (look at the % of minorities killed in Vietnam vs the % actually drafted, or the % of draftees that were minorities vs the % of non-minorities) is a disservice to other men in uniform, than you will be upset at what he did.

I personally think it is honorable.

However, Kerry never went to North Vietnam (accept possibly as part of his duties in Vietnam. I don't know where he was stationed.)

Kerry was such a good speaker, and his position of War Hero Against the War was so powerful that President Nixon started a dirty tricks campaign against him.

The person running that campaign in 1971 is also the person running the Swift Boats campaign now.

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Zamphyr
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@skillery

Would you be describing Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian candidate recently arrested while protesting the Presidential Debates ?

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vwiggin
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quote:
I do not wish to vote for Kerry or Bush!
Hey, we all feel your pain. But do you feel that their positions on foreign policy, tax cuts, civil rights, and the environment are so similiar that there is no difference between them?

Tell us the one issue you care about the most and we'll see if we can convince you to lean towards one candidate over the other. [Wink]

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Alucard...
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quote:
Which candidate is most likely to pull the U.S. out of the U.N., close down the Federal Reserve, abolish farm subsidies, open the border with Mexico, put a stop to federally funded abortions, and call an end to foreign aid?
Actually, the Federal Reserve is not a federal bank. It is a private bank. But that is ANOTHER story...more appropriate for a time closer to Halloween.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Misha, I still have nightmares from my old con law lectures. So I'm going to skip the videos, for now.
Was it just me or was Con Law the class with the least link between the lectures and the exam of pretty much any class you've ever taken.

The lectures were all "textualist thoeries suggest this..." and "originalists think that..." and "application of the representational reinforcement theory of judicial review results in this..." and the exams were straight up application of case law that could have been gotten from Emmanuel's.

Dagonee

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vwiggin
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When I took conlaw affirmative action was still a big issue in California. So every class basically degenerated into a shouting match between the two sides.

Sure, that sounds like fun, but after a few weeks I begin to think, "I see better debates on Hatrack, and Hatrack doesn't charge me tuition!"

You're absolutely right about Emmanuel's (I use Barbri outlines). Regardless of what was discussed in class, I noticed most conlaw exams focus on application of rules from case law.

If you have a cool professor, he might throw in one bonus question where you can show off your reasoning skills. But the curve is so competitive in most schools I'm sure people mostly write in what they think the professor wants to hear and not their personal opinions.

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Dagonee
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I din't use Emmanuels, but when I was done with my outline, I realized it was basically, "Find the power, see if it interferes with a right, pick the level of scrutiny, identify the purpose, and write, write, write.

All the high theory stuff just falls through the cracks when you have to apply the law to a hypothetical.

Good thing I don't have a scholarly bent. [Smile]

Dagonee
P.S., I skipped the day we covered Roe v. Wade. I didn't think it was worth the hassel and the emotion when I knew it was superseded by Casey.

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skillery
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Zamphyr,

I wish I were describing a candidate that had a chance of winning an election.

Why can't the Democrats and Republicans find a real issue? There are so many of them.

This Iraq war thing should not even be an issue. We all want our boys home, leaving behind a peaceful, well-governed Iraq. Throw in some free-flowing oil to relieve some of the war debt that we've piled up. Unfortunately, that is not on either party's agenda.

How about this for an Iraq agenda: we return to expansionism; Iraq is now our fifty-first state; we bought it with the blood of our young people; the U.S. Constitution is now in force in Iraq; federal taxes will now be charged for every barrel of oil that comes out of our newly-acquired ground; China, Russia, EU, and the UN can all suck eggs.

We've become international wimps.

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Dan_raven
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ConLaw? Law is a Con? Hmmm, somehow I am neither surprised nor shocked.
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beverly
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*raises hand*

I am a swing voter. Though I am not coming up with any good questions to ask. I think I will just read this thread and continue to learn what I can. If I come up with a question, I will ask.

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vwiggin
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"Good thing I don't have a scholarly bent."

Good for you. The one person I know who didn't pass the bar was too "scholarly" for his own good. Instead of writing standard exam answers, he would write these fantastic essays applying every possible legal theory to the fact pattern as well as analyzing the impact each legal theory would have on the society as a whole.

Of course, the bar examiners are just looking for certain key words and nice penmanship. Save your scholarly energy for Hatrack. [Smile]

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vwiggin
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Yes Dan, and I work at Dewey, Cheatem & Howe. Are you satisfied? [Razz]

Bev, have a seat and enjoy the show. [Smile]

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skillery
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Okay, which candidate is most likely to bring about a regime change in North Korea?
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katharina
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Which candidate is going to clean my bathroom? That's what I want to know.
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beverly
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[ROFL]

<=== is avoiding cleaning bathrooms at this very moment

[ October 11, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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skillery
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So Kat, you're saying that bringing about regime change in foreign countries is no more a responsibility of the president of the U.S. than is cleaning bathrooms?

That would answer the question of why neither presidential candidate has identified any real issues. The president is not responsible for dealing with issues.

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Lost Ashes
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Okay, here's a big one:

Next term, there is a chance for the president to select what might be from one to three members of the Supreme Court.

Which candidate can I select that will choose candidates of strong moral fiber, encyclopedic knowledge of constitutional law, actual experience, unwavering fairness and untarnished by political or ideological affiliations?

In short, who will choose the candidates more bound by wisdom and the Constitution than one political stance or the other?

And which candidate has more in common with the average person trying to raise a family on $50K a year or less?

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Alucard...
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In my countdown to Halo 2 being released for the XBox, I caught this quote at bungie.com, and it reminded me of the election:

"Life is a like a box of cherries, sometimes you get the really yummy ones with the gooey caramel and other times you get the gross raspberry creme **** ones that taste like @$$."

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Misha McBride
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For clarity, those constitution videos are done by Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian candidate. [Smile]
They aren't Con Law, but a guide to understanding the Constitution as it was written, and to the original ideals of the founding fathers.

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CStroman
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quote:
He went to Paris, where there were peace talks being negotiated. There, it is said, he spoke with representatives of North Vietnam, even though we were still at war and he was still a reservist officer.

He did not do this to sell out our country or surrender vital information. He did it to encourage the peace talks that he believed were purposefully being stalled by the military and the administration.

That's the liberal spin on it. Remember, he was still a reservist when he want to Paris, unapproved, to meet with leaders of North Vietnam.

They think it's honorable. I think it is selling out your government. It's also very important to note that his visit there did nothing to further peace talks at all. It was a failure.

I personally do not want to see John Kerry sitting accross a table from OBL or Zarqawi making "deals".

My opinion.

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Ben
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chad you still didn't havent answered my question from the other thread?

will you be my best friend?

please?

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vwiggin
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Hi Chad. I'm still waiting for your response in this thread.
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vwiggin
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quote:
In short, who will choose the candidates more bound by wisdom and the Constitution than one political stance or the other?
If you mean which candidate is more likely to select a texaulist or strict constructionist, it is probably Bush.

As for "wisdom" that's a tougher call. I think Democrats are more likely to appoint judges who will protect our civil rights. Whether that is the same as "wisdom" depends on your personal values.

quote:
And which candidate has more in common with the average person trying to raise a family on $50K a year or less?
Both candidates favor tax cuts for the middle class. However, Kerry wants to roll back tax cuts for people earning more than $200k/yr and close tax loopholes for corporations.

Kerry has a very aggressive healthcare plan that will cover more lower and middle income families. However, it is unclear how he will pay for this ambitious healthcare package AND balance the budget AND fight the war in Iraq.

[ October 11, 2004, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]

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School4ever
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I am a swing voter, so I found this site in an attempt to pick a third party candidate. The five candidates I looked at where absolutely whacked, crazy, insane....

[ October 12, 2004, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: School4ever ]

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beverly
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Hey S4E, long time no see! I was thinking about you just the other day. How are you doing?
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School4ever
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I'm OK, I just can't seem to find time to keep up with Hatrack. I think I am a thread killer at Hatrack, when I post the threads seem to die.

I really am a swing voter. I am torn between the two candidates. I need to decide which issues are the most important to me, I hope that will help me decide.

Ed: how many times can you use the word "decide" in a sentence.

[ October 12, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: School4ever ]

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Tammy
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quote:
I think I am a thread killer at Hatrack, when I post the threads seem to die.

Hey...don't even try to take my job away from me.

This election is really beginning to bug me. I'm beginning to realize what a bunch of crazies I live around and associate with.

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Narnia
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Tammy, I totally understand. This election has taken perfectly normal people and turned them into crazy whackos. I can't wait until it's over. [Frown]
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