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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » "Why I am an Agnostic" (Page 6)

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Author Topic: "Why I am an Agnostic"
beverly
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Seems to me that there are agnostics that lean towards atheism and there are agnostics that lead towards theism. Of course, there are probably truly neutral agnostics also. It seems to me that it is a spectrum with atheism on one side, theism on the other, and a band of agnostics in the middle that overlap on both sides. No clear-cut black and white here. That's just how it looks to me. [Smile]
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Chris Bridges
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beverly - thank you. Had Xaposert started off with that this thread would be two pages shorter... [Smile]
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beverly
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[Big Grin]
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celia60
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Do we all still bear that animosity to God that you mentioned a few pages back? [Wink]
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celia60
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quote:
This is why I think agnostics are often atheists, even if they don't want to be - because they can't flip off the atheist switch by willpower.
Can you not see that either one requires some leap of faith? The default is neither. Neither!
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beverly
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Good question, celia. I am trying to figure out how I perceive this as I go. I think the "agnostics" that I made reference to there would be on the atheistic side of the spectrum. I just can't think of any "atheistic" agnostics that I have seen that don't have some feeling of animosity towards the Biblical God.
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katharina
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Frisco declares himself atheist, but isn't hostile to the Bible or religion. He just doesn't believe it.
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Chris Bridges
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While I'm certain many do, some "atheistic" agnostics have less of an animosity towards a God than they have an animosity towards the God's followers, particularly where their influence affects the agnostic in question. And that can often appear to be the same thing.

[ December 02, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

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celia60
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I have to agree with Chris on that.
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beverly
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Yup, there is definitely animosity from some towards believers.

Kat, I don't know much about Frisco's outlook except what he said in this thread, and while he didn't express any animosity, he also didn't address the matter at all. But I also imagine you are more familiar with his take on it than I am.

Maybe I tend to hear from those who hold animosity because those who don't also don't really care enough to say anything at all. True apatheists. [Razz]

[ December 02, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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Xaposert
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quote:
Seems to me that there are agnostics that lean towards atheism and there are agnostics that lead towards theism.
That's what I've been suggesting, except with one important additional point:

Can you really "lean" a direction without actually believing? It seems to me that leaning a direction is simply what belief is, and although you can have varying degrees of confidence, you either believe or you don't. Thus, if you lean towards atheism, you believe atheism, I'd say. That's what it is to believe.

quote:
" This is why I think agnostics are often atheists, even if they don't want to be - because they can't flip off the atheist switch by willpow"
Can you not see that either one requires some leap of faith? The default is neither. Neither!

The leap of faith is just as automatic as the belief itself is. Normally even the default requires a leap of faith, whatever that default may be (but I don't think it is typically neither).
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Storm Saxon
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I think a distinction should be made between agnostics and theists who aren't Christian. I think anyone who just reads the Bible, that hasn't been raised in a Christian culture and doesn't have someone there explaining things to her, is going to come away with a, shall we say, mixed view of God, and quite possibly an antagonistic view of God.
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katharina
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beverly, I'm only going off of what Frisco said in this thread and in other places on Hatrack. First example I thought of someone who was not impressed or believing, but not hostile.

[ December 02, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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celia60
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quote:
Can you really "lean" a direction without actually believing? It seems to me that leaning a direction is simply what belief is, and although you can have varying degrees of confidence, you either believe or you don't. Thus, if you lean towards atheism, you believe atheism, I'd say. That's what it is to believe.
arrrghh! didn't you just say:

quote:
This is why I think agnostics are often atheists, even if they don't want to be - because they can't flip off the atheist switch by willpower.
A desire to believe is not a belief.

quote:
The leap of faith is just as automatic as the belief itself is. Normally even the default requires a leap of faith, whatever that default may be (but I don't think it is typically neither).
Um, I think your definition of default is a little off. Default is the value assigned before the user inputs anything. I'm willing to accept that I may have had a different default setting than you, but by definition, a movement in any direction removes the default setting. The default value is what comes up the first time you open the settings menu. Do you believe in God? What was the first response you had? Mine was, "I don't know."
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Chris Bridges
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You missed the "Of course, there are probably truly neutral agnostics also" part. That's the part I've been arguing exists.
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beverly
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Xap, it seems to me that there must be overlap because of the definitions. If an atheist is someone who believes there is no God and an agnostic is someone who believes you can't know one way or the other, can't a person fall under both definitions at the same time? Likely, someone could believe there is a God but simultaneously believe you can't be sure. I don't think an agnostic has to be neutral to be an agnostic. All my life I had thought of atheist, agnostic, and theist as three separate things. Now while I still think atheist and theist are clear-cut separated, I think agnostic includes people in both categories *as well as* those who are neutral.
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Xaposert
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Celia,

A desire to believe is not a belief, but "leaning" one direction is. (Desiring to lean one direction is not.)

Also, "I don't know" is different from "Neither." If I say "Do you believe God exists or do you believe He doesn't exist?" and you say "I don't know" then it means one thing, and if you respond "Neither" it means something entirely different. I don't think many people start off saying "neither", if any.

Chris,
Well, that is possible, but that's the group whose beliefs I find particularly problematic.

Beverly,
I agree - I think most agnostics are actually also something else.

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celia60
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So maybe Beverly should define if she means lean to be desire or to be believe?

And that isn't the question I asked. Yours represents your continuing effort to impose a system with only two options. Yeah, I guess mine represents my continuing effort to impose a system which doesn't require an either/or response. To your question, I would say neither. To my own question you might even say "no" because you don't interpret God as the person asking does. Meaning, I have fallen into the foolish notion that there actually is only one possible interpretation of a higher power in my last post.

Alas, that was my experience and that was my default setting. But add any other possible explanation in and I still have to answer "I don't know."

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celia60
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quote:
I think most agnostics are actually also something else.
Happy? I'm happy. Is that something else?
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beverly
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Xap, to a certain extent, I agree with you. BUT, it sounds like you are trying to tell people who indeed are agnostic that they are not agnostic but something else. I would say, OK, maybe they are atheist. But they are *also* agnostic. [Smile]
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celia60
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And I would say "God damn me, I am not an athiest!"

[Razz]

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beverly
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Celia, if you say you are not an atheist, I think it would be rude of me to dispute that. You know yourself far better than I, and we have access to the same definition. I leave the defining of self in your capable hands. [Smile]
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Chris Bridges
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Chris,
Well, that is possible, but that's the group whose beliefs I find particularly problematic.


Fair enough. But your problem is not solved by declaring that no such group exists. You may not have out-and-out said that, but your every response has implied it. As a member of that group. I was a bit peeved [Smile]

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TomDavidson
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"There is zero cost to believing in something...."

Hm. I would dispute this.

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Chris Bridges
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Why? We have Pascal's Wager to guide us. Personal integrity and principles are as nothing compared to the cost-analysis method of theology.
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Xaposert
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Tom,
I would dispute that too, but that's because you took off the rest of the sentence. Here's the whole claim (emphasis added):

quote:
There is zero cost to believing in something (except that you may have to defend that belief to yourself and/or others), and doing so allows one the chance to make better decisions, as long as one believes what seems most likely to be true (which people do I think.)
If you would still dispute this, please say why. I can't respond if you don't say why. [Wink]

[ December 02, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

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katharina
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I do not agree that believing in something has no cost outside the effort to defend it. Believing in something places a value on it, more value than other things. If you truly believe it, that means you are investing and sacrificing for it - it costs something, it costs the other things it took precedence over.
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TomDavidson
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"If you would still dispute this, please say why."

Because the mere act of belief is exclusionary -- and takes effort.

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Why? We have Pascal's Wager to guide us. Personal integrity and principles are as nothing compared to the cost-analysis method of theology.
I'm going to weigh in here with the opinion that belief is not a choice. (Just my opinion, I'm not going to argue detereminism vs. free will).

If it made sense to me to believe in God, I would. But it doesn't, so I don't. Pascal discusses this in the wager, but suggests that we attempt to brainwash ourselves to believe something that we don't. That's hogwash, you can't do it. (My opinion, again)

This is just another reason why I think it's important to separate belief from knowledge. They are not the same. So we needs terms that describe states of knowledge, and *separate* terms that describe states of belief. Huxley did that, when he coined "agnostic."

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Glenn Arnold
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A (catholic) friend of mine once defined "Agnostic" as anyone who isn't willing to die to find out if there's a heaven. If you don't know...
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Morbo
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quote:
Puritans frequently came to Vagabond camps bearing the information that at the time of the creation of the universe--thousands of years ago!--certain of those present had been predestined by God to experience salvation. The rest of them were doomed to spend eternity burning in hellfire. This intelligence was called, by the Puritans, the Good News.
thoughts of Jack Shaftoe, "King of the Vagabonds," in Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson. I read this a few days and it seemed appropriate for the thread, and shows characteristic Stephensonesque humor (cynical, sarcastic, realist, ironic [Dont Know] .)

quote:
There is zero cost to believing in something (except that you may have to defend that belief to yourself and/or others), and doing so allows one the chance to make better decisions, as long as one believes what seems most likely to be true (which people do I think.)
xap, this is the silliest thing on the thread. Not only are there often enormous costs to believing in something (assuming it has effect on their behavior), do you really believe people believe in "what seems most likely to be true?"

People believe things for various reasons, and
likelyhood is rarely the chief criteria, often likelyhood is not even a consideration.

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dkw
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I agree with Tom and Morbo and kat. (That was fun to say.)

If it costs you nothing to believe in God I would argue that you don’t really believe. Or you might as well not, since it isn’t impacting your life anyway.

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rivka
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*jumps on the Tom-kat-Morbo-dkw bandwagon*

Toot!

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Dagonee
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Definitely. It goes back to a discussion we had about whether someone can believe something they don't want to.

Dagonee

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Frisco
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quote:
This is why I think agnostics are often atheists, even if they don't want to be - because they can't flip off the atheist switch by willpower.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you not see that either one requires some leap of faith? The default is neither. Neither!

For this to be true, an active disbelief would be required for someone to label themselves an atheist. But my personal default is atheism, because that's the way I've always been and will remain until something convinces me differently.

The atheist/agnostic argument is pretty much semantics. To me, the words are the same. I've never met anyone who truly didn't have any belief one way or the other. (Not that I've never believed in a higher power--I believed in Santa Claus for two weeks in the first grade because somebody dressed as him ran through my backyard.) And I've met far fewer atheists, proportionally, who claim to be as positive in their belief that a god couldn't possibly exist than I have theists who believe that the universe couldn't exist without a creator.

quote:
Theist: One who believes in the existence of a god or gods.
Atheist: One who does not believe in the existence of god or gods.
Agnostic: One who does not believe in either the existence of a specific god or gods or in the certain nonexistence of a god or gods.

See, Chris, I've never met an atheist who was certain of the nonexistence of a god or gods, which, to me, makes the second two choices read the same. Atheists, I think, are just a little further from the 50/50 mark of belief/lack of belief than are agnostics.

quote:
Frisco declares himself atheist, but isn't hostile to the Bible or religion. He just doesn't believe it.
Well, I'm not a hostile person, in general. But does it count as "hostile" if every so often I take great pleasure in reshelving various religious texts into the "fiction" section of Barnes & Noble after I'm done reading them? [Razz]
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beverly
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I think part of the problem may be that there is more negative association with the term "atheist" than "agnostic". People seem to find "atheist" more threatening somehow.
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Xaposert
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quote:
Because the mere act of belief is exclusionary -- and takes effort.
Exclusionary in what way? How is that a cost?

It is exclusionary in that believing one thing means you can't believe things that contradict that thing. But I'd hardly call that a cost, provided you are believing what seems to be true. What is costly about it?

As for effort, it takes almost no effort. I just looked at the weather channel and now believe it will be sunny tommorrow. Did it take effort for me to attain that belief? Not really, except maybe a few neurons firing and a second of thought.

quote:
If it costs you nothing to believe in God I would argue that you don’t really believe. Or you might as well not, since it isn’t impacting your life anyway.
What does it cost you to believe in God then?

quote:
Not only are there often enormous costs to believing in something (assuming it has effect on their behavior), do you really believe people believe in "what seems most likely to be true?"
Yes. Have you ever believed in something that you didn't consider to seem most likely true? If so, I'd really wonder why.

[ December 03, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

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TomDavidson
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"As for effort, it takes almost no effort. I just looked at the weather channel and now believe it will be sunny tommorrow."

Because you have prior reason to have faith in the Weather Channel. If I showed you a frog, skipped in a gay circle around you, and declared that my researches just then had made it clear to me that a typhoon would shortly be arriving to mess up your hairdo and do nothing more, I believe you would be skeptical. [Smile]

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Xaposert
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There's still no significant effort involved. When I go on a trip and turn on the local news station, I believe them too - and I don't have to do any research on the news station to try and figure out if I should have prior faith in them.

When it comes to God, many people first started believing simply because their parents said so. There is no troublesome effort required to do that. You just hear that piece of information and start believing one way or another. You can later choose to do more research if you want, but that's a cost of refining your belief, not believing itself.

I also haven't seen anything to indicate atheists go through any more research or effort than agnostics do, despite the fact that they make the jump to belief that agnostics supposedly do not. Agnosticism is not easier than atheism.

[ December 03, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

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celia60
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Frisco, see my other post about us not neccessarily having the same defaults. My default is agnostic and either direction would take a leap for me.
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Chris Bridges
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See, Chris, I've never met an atheist who was certain of the nonexistence of a god or gods, which, to me, makes the second two choices read the same. Atheists, I think, are just a little further from the 50/50 mark of belief/lack of belief than are agnostics.

You might want to write to the people at www.atheists.org, then. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear it.
Same problem I've been having with Xaposert's posts: your inability to conceive of someone believing the way I do has no effect on how I believe. You don't get to say I don't exist.

When it comes to God, many people first started believing simply because their parents said so. There is no troublesome effort required to do that. You just hear that piece of information and start believing one way or another. You can later choose to do more research if you want, but that's a cost of refining your belief, not believing itself.

There was indeed troublesome effort to stop believing what my parents taught me. I was devout and dedicated, certain of the necessary constant struggle during life and my rewards after death. Deciding to let that belief go was a scary thing. Suddenly I was living without a net, without any comforting belief that no matter what happened to me here, as long as I believed in Jesus I would be all right. Even though it's a choice I made with eyes open, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't dismiss the effort so quickly.

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BannaOj
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quote:
"As for effort, it takes almost no effort. I just looked at the weather channel and now believe it will be sunny tommorrow."

Because you have prior reason to have faith in the Weather Channel. If I showed you a frog, skipped in a gay circle around you, and declared that my researches just then had made it clear to me that a typhoon would shortly be arriving to mess up your hairdo and do nothing more, I believe you would be skeptical.

Christy, if he wasn't yours and I didn't already have a man who'd say nearly the same thing although differently, I'd fall in love with your husband.

AJ

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dkw
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quote:
What does it cost you to believe in God then?
Me, personally? Everything I had planned to do with my life, my former political affiliation and economic philosophy, and a complete change of career to one with no financial prospects and no personal choice in where I will work or live.

I suppose it would be possible to believe in the God of deism with no personal cost, but I can’t think of any serious interpretation of the God of the Bible that wouldn’t require things of the believer.

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Frisco
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quote:
You might want to write to the people at www.atheists.org, then. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear it.
Same problem I've been having with Xaposert's posts: your inability to conceive of someone believing the way I do has no effect on how I believe. You don't get to say I don't exist.

Who the hell pissed in your cheerios? I said that, to me, atheists and agnostics are the same, only varying in degrees. It's obviously a semantic argument. Who are you to tell me that I'm certain in the nonexistence of a god? That I'm lumped in with extreme cases on a stupid website who, if you're right, believe that something, anything, can be proved to not exist.

Where have I expressed any doubt of your beliefs? Are you looking for things to be offended by? I acknowledge your beliefs, mostly because I have the exact same ones.

quote:
I don't believe in a god. I don't believe that there is no god. I have no evidence or personal knowledge either way and see no point in choosing one over the other. I don't care
These are my beliefs exactly, and I call myself an atheist. Whatever. Now bark up another tree if you need to find something else to get indignant over.

[ December 03, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]

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Xaposert
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quote:
Me, personally? Everything I had planned to do with my life, my former political affiliation and economic philosophy, and a complete change of career to one with no financial prospects and no personal choice in where I will work or live.
Your belief in Him just gave you the BENEFIT of realizing it would be best for you to do those things.
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katharina
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Wow. That was incredibly rude. Are you trying to be?
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Mike
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quote:
That I'm lumped in with extreme cases on a stupid website who, if you're right, believe that something, anything, can be proved to not exist.
I've done it before, and no doubt I'll do it again, but I'd just like to point out that it is possible to prove non-existence of certain things. For example, there is absolutely, unequivocally, and indisputably no largest prime number. It provably doesn't exist.

Carry on.

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Storm Saxon
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I'd just like to say that I appreciate Mr. Xaposert and don't really find him to have been rude in this thread. Disagreement is not rude.

He's stuck it out in the face of heated opposition, which takes guts, without resorting getting angry or resorting to name calling. In fact, I can't think of Mr. Tresopax ever being snide or catty, ever calling names, with anyone.

[Hat] Tresopax.

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dkw
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*snort*

Tres, by that logic my utility bill doesn't cost me anything either, since it's best that the house is heated.

Just because something is worth the cost doesn't mean it isn't a cost.

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Xaposert
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Storm... okay, let's not go too far. [Wink]

dkw,
Well, to draw the comparison, I do think that the piece of paper itself doesn't cost you anything. It's your use of the heating that costs you, and the bill just tells you. If the bill never came, you'd still owe - you'd just not know it. You might even pay a greater penalty, if you let the amount go unpaid.

I think belief is like the bill, the time and effort you give up to God and mankind in general is like the payment, and the benefits you get (which I'll leave up to you to describe, although when I go to church and do service I'd probably consider the benefits to be learning, joy, fellowship with the others there, and the experience of serving itself) are like the heat. And I think to say you are paying a price for your belief, is like saying you are paying a price for the bill you've recieved. I think the price is still there if you don't believe, and will probably be even greater - much like there is a greater penalty if you never look at your bill.

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