posted
I came across an article just now on Yahoo about PETA filing a complaint against a major Kosher slaughtering company for "outrageous" levels of cruelty. Link
As it happens, I believe the article could have been written in a less sensationalist way - particularly with fewer of the graphic accusations made by PETA - but that is not what prompted me to begin this topic. I do not think that PETA's complaint is (necessarily) stemming from anti-semitism, though that may be a contributor.
But out of morbid curiosity, I clicked on the link to view the discussion board - and the comments there are horrifying, though I must admit I (unfortunately) do not find them shocking.
Claims that Hitler should have finished the job abound; similar extreme and graphic anti-semetic remarks of other varieties comprise a disturbing percentage of all posts. And no, the posts are not being made by the same group of people over and over again. Link. (Thanks, Dagonee!)
More than once, I have heard both Jews and non-Jews express the opinion that there is only a small amount of anti-Semitism in America. I have always been sure that this was not the case; perhaps I should save this link to offer future proof.
quote:Out of curiosity, how do you know this isn't the case?
Because the usernames are not the same usernames, and posting requires a log-in to a Yahoo! account. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that these people do not have dozens of different Yahoo accounts that they log in and out of to give the appearance of being different people.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Why does Jewish law forbid stunning the animals before killing them?
This site seems accurate. The question you ask is the the sixth from the top. Link.
(Edited to add: You might want to read the rest of the page as well, as it does a good job of explaining why Shechita actually is humane - as has been proven scientifically. It LOOKS cruel, perhaps - it's certainly gory - but that doesn't equal more painful if the animal is almost immediately rendered unconcious.)
Edited to Add: And even while the cow is still concious (as far as I know) the bleeding isn't actually painful.
quote:Because the usernames are not the same usernames, and posting requires a log-in to a Yahoo! account. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that these people do not have dozens of different Yahoo accounts that they log in and out of to give the appearance of being different people.
I've seen stuff like that done before. Don't know if it's happening in this case, but I have seen it on several sites.
posted
There is both more and less to the complaints than stated. There are relatively humane methods of slaughter which comply with kosher and halal law, however not all kosher/halal slaughterhouses have adopted them. While PETA does strongly oppose meat-eating, PETA's main complaint in this case is that AgriProcessors hasn't adopted the more humane methods adopted by other kosher slaughterhouses.
posted
Reader, there does seem to be a great deal of ugly anti-semitism on that message board. But I imagine this is in part due to the way the internet brings people out of the cracks who believe a certain way. The population on a message board, especially the vocal population, is not representative of the world's actual population.
On the other hand, people will say things under the cloak of anonymity that they would never dare say otherwise. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Aspectre - fascinating articles! Thanks for the links. I've read Temple Grandin's book and several of her articles, but I had no idea she has worked so closely with Jewish slaughter rabbis/companies.
It seems, then, that the actual process of Kosher slaughter is extremely humane - but with the advent of machinery, there have been problems in a few companies caused by the machinery itself, not the slaughter.
I would need to find out more before forming any conclusive opinion, but at the moment, I'm leaning towards thinking that I would probably be in favor of pressuring the slaughtering plant in question to convert to the more humane machinery system.
posted
I don't misuse them, but I have multiple yahoo accounts. I use them mostly for various e-mail purposes.
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posted
I wouldn't read overly much into the comments about the story. (Where did you find them?) People go farther way-over-the-top-insulting inregard to animal cruelty than they do about similar treatment of humans.
Remember that $115thousand was raised as reward for the capture of a man who killed a dog. Can't think of a non-political case in which a similar amount was publicly raised to capture a murderer or kidnapper. Nor one that aroused such public vitriol.
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And whether or not people react more strongly to animal cruelty or human cruelty is moot; the point is that protected by the anonymity of the Internet, literally hundreds of people are expressing extreme anti-semitism.
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posted
Long time no see, reader! I was afraid you had left us for good.
*sigh* Yeah, posts like some of those make me ill. But I really do believe that they are a very small minority -- if a loud and horrifyingly obnoxious one.
And I love Tiny Url! (Never can remember to USE them, but they're really cool.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Sorry, couldn't help myself. I checked out the message board, and honestly, reading the subject lines were enough for me. Ack!
And a sick joke begins to form in my head. It has something to do with dumb prejudiced people only marrying their own kind, and then there's something about the back hills of, let me see, which state was that? Oh, yeah. Arkansas.
Sorry, nice Arkansas people. You kinda get a bad rep from the rest of them. [/attempt at sarcastic humour or something]
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I'm definitely still around, but mostly in lurker mode. My life is really, really busy now - I'm in college full time and I'm working full time - so I don't really have the time for any significant amount of posting. Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Personally I believe the new wave is being fueled by movements opposed to Israel.
I hope you aren't saying all or any large proportion of people who are opposed to Israel are anti-semitic. Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
If you are opposed to specific actions of the Israeli government -- or even many or all of its actions -- I don't think that makes you anti-semitic.
If you are opposed to Israel's existence, then I would say you probably are.
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posted
It goes something like this, Israel assasinates a terrorist leader and kills some bystanders who may or may not be "innocent." People opposed to this action then blame it on Israel. Then they blame Israelis as a whole, then they blame the people who are Israelis: the Jews. Now, I'm not saying all people who think assasinating a terrorist leader in such a way that it endangers bystanders is wrong go through this process, I'm just saying that it seems that a lot of the anti-Semitism is generated this way. I also believe Israel acts as a target of people who are anti-Semitic, but don't want to say that's what they're against. Sometimes, those people who will flat out say that they're just anti-Zionist, but that Zionism isn't the same as being Jewish.
posted
Anti-semitism is the same thing as any other kind of raceism, and should be viewed in the same light. Most people who dislike Isreal (not saying whether they're right or not) do so because they do not like the actions taken by the country, and should be alowed to say so.
quote:If you are opposed to specific actions of the Israeli government -- or even many or all of its actions -- I don't think that makes you anti-semitic.
If you are opposed to Israel's existence, then I would say you probably are.
I'm always carefull not to brand someone as an anti-semite, just because they are opposed to Isreal. Though I personaly think that Isreal's presence in the Middle-East is a welcome boon of democracy, I don't think thier hands are clean in this war.
posted
I'm not sure I see the connection to opposing the existence of Israel and anti-semitism. I could be opposed to Israel and be perfectly fine with Jewish people.
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posted
rivka, this is not my opinion, so I may not capture it correctly, but here's the closest to being non-anti-semitic rationalization for opposing the existence of Israel I've seen.
It's basically an anti-colonialism argument, that a bunch of people from Europe came to land populated by indigineous people and were given control of it. Therefore, the colonizers and the descendents of those colonizers ought to leave and give the land back.
It's a gross oversimplification of what occurred, but there's enough of a grain of truth in it that I can conceive of someone holding that opinion without being anti-semitic.
I can't speak to whether such people exist or not, of course.
posted
I thought it was obvious from the beginning, and then I thought I made it more obvious, but since you're still confused I'll explain it again. Some people make the connection between being opposed to Israel's actions and being opposed to Jewish people. Others simply don't like Israel, but hold no grudge against Jews as a group or as individuals. Some people go through that process I described and become anti-Semitic, others don't.
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posted
Sorry, nfl, I wasn't responding directly to you. I was responding to rivka.
To elaborate, I was questioning any connection between being opposed to Israel's existence and anti-semitism, that being opposition or dislike of Jewish people in a general sense.
Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't think being opposed to Israel's existence is the same as being anti-Semitic, however being opposed to Israel is used an excuse to be anti-Semitic, many people who are opposed to Israel's existence are anti-Semitic, and much (but not all) of the rationalization for being opposed to Israel's existence is anti-Semitic.
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quote:Some people make the connection between being opposed to Israel's actions and being opposed to Jewish people. Others simply don't like Israel, but hold no grudge against Jews as a group or as individuals. Some people go through that process I described and become anti-Semitic, others don't.
I agree with this. A completely sensible dislike for the policies of the Israeli government could certainly lead someone to resent Jews -- much as an otherwise sensible outrage at terrorism can lead one to resent Arabs/Muslims.
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posted
The problem with claiming that colonizers must leave a country after living there for X amount of years is that once you're going back in history to figure out who the real, original occupiers are, you can't just stop where it's convenient. Israel has passed from one set of hands to the next that there would be no end to the backtracking you'd have to do. Maybe the Palistinians/Arabs were there before the Jews, but before them the Romans were in charge, and before that the Jews had been living there for hundreds of years.... (I'm skipping steps here, of course.) But even not regarding that point, there's the whole, well, is America prepared to give back its land to the Native Americans and just move out? Are the Australians all prepared to move out of Australia and leave it for the Aborigines? No, of course not! There is no concept in the world as we live in it today that if a new people moves into a country, and colonizes it, and lives in it for X significant number of years, and has built an entire government and nation there, that they should have to move out and give it up.
Clearly, anyone who thinks that the Israeli people should all move out is applying a gross double-standard, and the reason for this is almost definitely underlying anti-semitism. There may be a very rare case here or there that's an exception, but the general ridiculousness of the logic is such that anyone who believes that Israeli government should just hand over the reigns to the Palistinians, and/or that the Jews should all move out, is almost definitely anti-semitic - whether they admit to this or not.
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posted
reader, I specifically said I didn't hold that opinion.
Further, if one agrees a temporal line must be drawn, then Israel can easily be placed on a different side of the line than your other examples. For example, using a generational line might be defensible. Your refutation, while containing some sound principles, is incomplete.
I think a much better refutation can be found in examining the situation and showing how it's not simply a boatload of Europeans showing up to take the land.
posted
Most of the people opposed to the existance of Israel are Palestinian arabs, a semitic people themselves. Thus, them being anti-semitic would be a rather silly assertion, wouldn't it?
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posted
If the word was generally used in its original etymological sense, yes. Since its primary meaning (by usage, as these things commonly occur) now is specific to Jews . . . well, when you say, "nice," Annie -- what do you mean?
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posted
Dagonee - I was't directing the response at you in particular. I was directing it at the idea in general that people who are against the entire existence of the state of Israel are not necessarily anti-semitic. And I stand by what I said before - that yes, you could find some way, such as by number of generations, in which Israel is different than other countries - but still, the situation between Israel and other colonizations are similar enough, and the fact that there is an utter lack of governments just giving up all rights simply because they were colonizers, is such that anyone who is actively seeking out that distinction and applying it to Israel is probably starting off with some underlying anti-semitic feeling.
Of course, what you say about the situation not being a simple one of Europeans landing in Israel is also true; I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to, but among other pertinent issues, there is the fact that there was a significant population of Sephardic Jews in Israel, co-existing fairly peacefully with the Arabs, long before the European Jews arrived.
Edited to make it clear that this post is in response to Dagonee.
posted
Oh yes, and I think that's why the explanation doesn't work. My understanding is that emigrants didn't outnumber native Jews for quite a while, although I'm shaking on the actual timeline.
However, I'm willing to grant the existence of at least some people who opposed the creation of the state of Israel, continue to view it as a conquiring government, and yet are not anti-Semetic. However, I'd be willing to bet that many people who fit that description have given in to racism, at least a little.
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