posted
I'm a curious person and one day it will be my downfall.
Why are there so many "back-handed" congrats in Nathan's thread? I don't get it, I really don't. Isn't there a better, more gracious way to air concerns rather than putting them in the thread that announces Jamie and Nathan's wedding date? And haven't people already aired their concerns in the thread that announced the engagement?
Why aren't other members of Hatrack subjected to this scrutiny? Scott R. is having his fourth child - has anyone grilled him to see if his marriage is stable enough to handle the stress or if he's financially okay? It doesn't happen with other people; they just get congratulated.
If someone could explain this to me I'd love to hear the answer.
posted
I don't know. I don't get people. When I announced my fourth child, I got tons of backhanded comments, online and to my face.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Oh, don't read my post as an attack on Scott. I think Scott is a great guy. I was just using him as an example. He, like Jamie and Nate, are 'rackers. All three of them will soon be going through big life changes. Why are Jamie and Nate questioned but he isn't?
Don't take that to mean I think we *should* question Scott. It was supposed to point out that Jamie and Nate are being singled out, in my opinion.
posted
Yeah, but I have four kids - I'm just wondering why anybody would care how many kids someone else has.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I think it's the idea of backhanded stuff in general. There's a gracious way to do it. Like Tom's for instance. He communicated both his disapproval of the decision itself, but also communicated the support of the friendship he extends regardless of what we choose to do. It just made me respect Tom all the more.
Then...there's the not-gracious way. I won't point out examples.
And yeah, I have no problems with big families if that's what they want and they have the means and all. Who are we to judge?
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I didn't read that post but, yeah, I think it's wrong to single people out and jump on them for life decisions.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't think I've seen any backhanded comments on that thread.
Some people think Jamie and Nate are making a mistake, and because they care about them, they would prefer to see them not make a mistake. Now there are several schools of thought about this:
Stay out of it. Even if it's a mistake, it's none of your business.
Stay out of it, because you won't change what they are going to do, and they'll just get angry at you for voicing disapproval.
Speak your peace, regardless of whether it is wanted or well-received, because friends don't watch friends make large mistakes without saying anything about it.
Now, I'm not agreeing that Jamie and Nate are making a mistake. But I believe that everybody who has posted in that thread is motivated by genuine good wishes for both people, and I'm not repudiating any of them, either.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
in the first post in that thread, Nathan brought up the idea that many people can or do think this decision is a bad decision. He brought it up, and I don't see how it's inappropriate for others to comment on it themselves.
edit: I disagree with what I wrote there. Nathan didn't ask for advice -- the decision has already been made, and he was just explaining himself. I was in the wrong.
posted
Porter, the only comment I remember disliking was ...yours, actually. Backhanded was a pretty good word for it. But I see that now it's gone, anyway.
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posted
I used to think nothing should be edited if it had been replied to. But I don't think that anymore.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I think not just saying it but even feeling it is wrong. All individuals are in charge of their own lives. Major life decisions simply cannot be made by others, because a person is a complex and unknowable mystery, even to themselves, and certainly nobody else has any idea what it's like being them. People of any age are barely (if even) qualified to make their own life choices. The old people I know are not generally wiser or happier or more joyful than the young. It's an objective fact that nobody can possibly be qualified to make big decisions for anyone else.
All choices in life are fraught with peril. Every love, every profession chosen, every marriage, every child conceived, every move to another city or a new job is a difficult and dangerous undertaking. There is no guarantee that any of these things will work out well, yet with luck and grace, with humility, and persistence, and with the love and support of our family and friends, we all know that much joy can be found.
Beginnings are delicate things. The most unpropitious circumstances have been known to give rise to the greatest results. What do you suppose Mary and Joseph's friends thought of their marriage, and of their new baby, born in a barn?
When people are announcing major life moves, they have passed the point at which they are deciding. Their decision is already made... by the ones God placed in charge of their lives, (if you like), by themselves. If other input was needed it would be from their closest most trusted family and friends, and it would have been requested much earlier.
If someone has dire predictions about someone else's choices, then why would they feel the need to voice them, unwanted and unheeded? So in case it doesn't work out, they can have the satisfaction of saying, "I told you so"? Are such comments really motivated by love and concern? I have a hard time feeling that some of them are. A very few seem to come from close and caring people. Much more often they seem to be made by people who've evidenced, up to that point, little to no interest in the parties involved.
I feel it's far better always that we should celebrate engagements, marriages, and births, and give our full love and support to those who announce them. When people make these announcements on hatrack, they're inviting us to share their joy. It is a privilege of friendship which they extend to us. How well do we repay them for that privilege of joy, if in return we do our best to squelch it?
posted
You can't really win sometimes, so, one might as well support a person no matter what they do and help them no matter what happens without snarky comments. People should elevated each other at all times, not tear each other down........ *hopes that does not sound wrong*
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think a more important question about singling out 'Rackers is why Bob and Dana get so much sappieness leeway when I get slapped down for so much as mentioning that I like the way Annie looks.
OK so maybe it's not more important, but I don't really have any input on the orginal question.
posted
I think Icky-chirops is right....it is rooted in a spirit of friendship.
Personally, I wish someone had been willing to take me aside and tell me what a mistake I was making in marrying my first husband. Instead, there was a pool among my "friends" for how long they thought it would last. I should have had them give me the money to defray the cost of the divorce.
Thus, when true friends *did* say some cautionary words to my now-husband and I about marrying, I took it in the manner it was meant, ended up taking a lot of it to heart -- we took some extra pre-marriage counselling as a result.
And I don't think anyone would think to say anything to ScottR about having his 12th child because we all know he's LDS and have no reason to worry over his marriage. If Magson, OTOH, said he was considering having another with his stbx-wife, I'd imagine there would be some cautionary posts.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: why [do] Bob and Dana get so much sappieness leeway when I get slapped down for so much as mentioning that I like the way Annie looks. [Grumble]
That's easy to answer. Their sappiness is contained. They start new threads for their sappiness that are easy to avoid. You, on the other hand, tend to ooze sappiness that gets all over almost any thread you visit. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I often get offended at frank advice from friends, even when it is couched in well-wishing. The mere thought that they don't agree with me irritates me.
That said, I have often looked back on such advice with gratitude, and consider my real friends the ones who told me what they thought I needed to hear, rather than what they thought I wanted to hear. Even when I disagreed with their advice, I appreciated the fact that they'd cared enough to share it.
My grandmother is a curmudgeony old lady who has never been happy with one of my mother's pregnancies. My mom's had six kids and has put up with a lot. Grandma now has discussions with me about what I need to be doing with my life - why I should consider a career and not run off and get married like my mom did. I don't agree with many of her offered opinions, but I understand that she gives them out of love and concern for me.
It's possible to wish someone well and congratulate them on a happy event and at the same time be concerned or cautionary. I don't see it as backhanded or mean; I see it as concerned and compassionate.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I agree. I appreciated, recently, when a friend took the time to tell me what he thought of a situation I was in, and then proceeded to tell me what he thought I ought to do about it. Others had told me similar things, but no one had pushed it. Indeed, some very dear friends appeared to not want to upset me, and therefore did not tell me things I "did not want to hear", which, though nice, was not very helpful. Sometimes the caring frankness is the only way.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I agree that the time and place for open disapprovel has passed. Mack and Nathan already know who disapproves, now it is time to celebrate, period. I appreciated the frank advice/words of caution in the other thread, and thought they were received by both in a very mature way. Now, they are announcing they are getting married in a few days. Do they need to hear it all over again? It makes me feel sad for them. If it were me, I would be hurt.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I like ribbing people who have kids because I GET ribbed for not having them. It's that thing where neither lifestyle is right or wrong, more or less rewarding (necessarily) and yet everyone has an opinion on it. Ribbing people about it sort of cushions the topic in my mind.
That said, I would think it just as offensive to truly criticize someone else's decision to have more children as I would take offense at criticism for not having kids. There are, like, five people on planet who I would feel comfortable butting into their personal business. Everyone else is just doing their thang, man.
(I think I might be a closet hippy.)
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I have a good friend who got married to a guy she met over the internet and had met in person once. She had never been in a dating relationship before. He was divorced and had recently had a child out of wedlock with another woman.
Needless to say, I was concerned.
I told her I was concerned, but that more importantly, I was her friend and always would be there for her no matter what. I think she really appreciated that. As far as I know, their marriage has been fine over the last year and a half. You never know.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
As long as people can take care of their kids, I don't object. I feel irratated towards people who have kids before they are ready or have enough money, but mainly because I am concerned about the kids. That sort of thing isn't even amusing on sitcoms. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: I think not just saying it but even feeling it is wrong.
I disagree. No feeling is ever morally wrong to have. You can't control what you feel.
You make some compelling points about now not being the correct time to voice those concerns. One difference, however, between this thread and the earlier one is the significant alteration of the timeframe.
I don't think anyone sounding a cautionary note did so to be able to say "I told you so" later, but merely out of a hope that what they believed to be wisdom might possibly get through, and out of a sense that it might be irresponsible to do less.
Please note two things. First of all, I am not defending those who expressed misgivings out of any sense of misgiving on my own part, but because I think those people were simply trying to figure out what it takes to be a good friend. You may be right, Anne Kate, that their decision was faulty, but it's hard to know in a dilemma what the right choice it. (And by the way, I'm not sure who in that thread has "never shown any sign of caring" for mack and T before.) Second, I am not saying that I think backhanded comments or saying hateful things about people's life decisions is appropriate, merely that I didn't really see that going on in Nate's thread.
The biggest shame of all would be if some of us, including Jamie and Nate, incorrectly imputed ugly motives to people who did not have them, and decided to ostracize or vilify people who were doing their best to do what they thought was right.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I guess I meant I would consider it wrong for me to think that about someone. Wrong as in a mistake.... like getting the wrong answer to a math problem, you know?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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twinky, I heard what you just thought. I'm going to have to write you up for that, you know. *shakes head sadly*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Icky, I was speaking in general and not really about Jamie and Nate. This is only the latest in a long series of such things on hatrack, where someone shares their joy and then receives a lot of negative comments and unwanted unheeded and highly impertinent advice and opinions.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
That thread is hardly an outpouring of cynicism. It might not be a full-on lovefest, but there's plenty of support and good vibes.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
When I announced my impending marriage here, I got a bit of that, too. It didn't change my mind. But then I also got that from friends IRL thinking I was being a fool for moving halfway around the world to marry someone I didn't know. But it was comments like that that was part of my decision to elope. I didn't want the negativeness to interfere with my happiness. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Would you have preferred they lied and said they thought it was a great idea, though? Or just that they simply offered congratulations and best wishes, keeping their opinions to themselves? Because those two options differ significantly.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
There is also the option that the friends have to realize that quid knows what she's doing, that she is qualified (more qualified than they) to make decisions for her own life, that they respect her choices, and that she's their friend and they love her and wish her the very best outcome possible. Don't forget that option.
posted
I see it as being totally different. I feel with both your options that the friends seem sure they know better than quid herself what is right for her to choose. I guess what I'm advocating is a healthy dose of humility and respect for people exercising their own free agency.
posted
How does having an opinion of your own about the decision conflict with that in any way? I never said that the congratulations and best wishes should be anything other than heartfelt.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
And I could throw in the fact that my life has always been odd, so why would it suddenly become normal? Plus I'm old.
I don't know what I would have preferred. I think I personally would have preferred all nice and happy - I get enough negativity as it is. It felt like they were raining on my parade, so to speak. Like my decisions weren't good enough for them. But then, I'm over-sensitive on such things, much more so than they realize. The fact that I chose to elope has to say volumes - I chose to not subject myself to the negativity. I didn't allow it any further opportunity to take place.
And having said all that, I could have been more sensitive on the other thread. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think the issue is that our opinion in such a situation is almost guaranteed to be based on incomplete data - much more incomplete than the couple's information.
Now, in cases where one person knows something about the friend's spouse-to-be that the friend needs to know to make a decision, speaking up might be warranted. But even then, one wouldn't be forming an opinion so much as providing additional information.
posted
Hobbes, was that kamakazi IM just now your way of telling me you think I'm all wrong about this? <laughs>
For the record, I think you're super cool too. And I like the Hobbes brand™ rampant leakingintoeverythread sappiness. It's obviously quite sincere so I think it's really sweet.
The kamakazi ims often puzzle me, though. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
In my view, option two (the friends keep their opinions to themselves and wish you all the best) is fine. Option one, however (the friends lie and say they think you're making a good decision) is not cool.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I think bringing anything up at Hatrack is opening it up for debate, whether you mean to or not. Not that debating it is always the right thing to do, but that it always happens. I don't recall a thread where something like this wasn't debated when the thread starter didn't want it to be.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I just try to avoid the "ganging up" mentality. If I know people have voiced appropriate concerns, then I feel free to only offer encouragement and excitement. It'll make the object that much happier. But if I don't think anyone's mentioned the concerns I have, then I'd rather bring them up quietly, privately, and briefly. It's a duty as a friend to mention it, but it's a duty as a friend not to embarass or shame them.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Absolutely. I don't think I would mention it in public. And having misgivings certainly wouldn't conflict with my wishing my friend(s) the very best. They're my friends. Of course I want everything to work out well for them. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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