FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Star Wars(Getting Worse?) (Page 3)

  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   
Author Topic: Star Wars(Getting Worse?)
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, but it works for most games. You make the players special, the population average, and the monsters in a nice range of danger. There's fun in standing up to 1000 kobalds and in fighting a single dragon.

Dagonee

Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chris Bridges
Member
Member # 1138

 - posted      Profile for Chris Bridges   Email Chris Bridges         Edit/Delete Post 
Now, having complained, the Armchair Director(TM) will solve these problems. Here's some suggestions for Phantom Menace.

Change the alien accents, or use subtitles.

Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force.
Even having Anakin grab Jar-Jar's tongue in mid-air after seeing Qui-Gon do it once would be something.

Let Qui-Gon explain the Force to Anakin by showing him instead of telling him. Not only has Anakin never seen it, but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped. Also a good spot for Anakin to get to do something to prove to himself (and us) that he's Force-ful. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock. See how this works:

"Very good, Anakin. There's not many that can do what you just did. Now, I want you to try pushing it towards me, but this time I'm gong to try and push it towards you. It's not a perfect way to test how strong you are in the Force, but it'll do for now. Ready?"

The stone shivers, then moves slowly towards Qui-Gon. He closes his eyes and smiles. The stone stops and moves steadily back towards Anakin. Anakin frowns and concentrates. The stone stops. Obi-Wan looks at both of them, starts to look concerned. Qui-Gon isn't smiling anymore. The stone shakes violently in place. Suddenly it whips across the room. Qui-Gon ducks just in time for it to miss him and shatter on the wall behind him.

Anakin opens his eyes. "Was that good?"

Qui-Gon looks stunned. "Yes, yes, that was excellent. You should run along now." Anakin leaves.

Obi-Wan looks at the rock shards. "How strong is he?"

"That's only happened to me once before."

"With who?"

Qui-Gon looks down the hallway after the boy. "Yoda."

See? Tense, visual, we get a sense of the boy's power, and it makes the Jedis edgy right off.

Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.

Anakin's mother should give him something of hers when he leaves. We need a connection between them that the audience can see. Personally I wouldn't have minded hearing Anakin ask if they can free her, too. Be nice to know he tried.

Show us the suffering on Naboo, something besides the single shot of people being led away. I had real problems believing tales of misery and woe from an elected Queen who can't wear the same extravagant outfit twice running (mistaken identity nonetheless). Could we see the blockade blocking something? Are medical supplies running low? Are they starving? What?

The underwater chase scene was wasted. That should never have been some sea monster, it should have been part of the blockade, Sidious' soldiers chasing our heroes underwater, possibly while hunting for the Gungans. That way we wouldn't have had the sense of a dropped-in-for-the-video-game aspect, it would have progressed the plot and shown us how dangerous the situation is, and we would have had a better sense of "our heroes are in constant danger" from then on.

The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.

When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."

Some scenes showing us more of the fighting in the Senate might have helped, and the ridiculous floating Mickey Mouse shoes need to just go away. They didn't have the sense of grandeur or majesty that even a small courtroom can have. Put 'em in tiered seats and let 'em argue.

Give us a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin butt heads, instead of Obi-Wan just not liking him. We need a reason for the animosity and the scene would allow us to identify with one of the other, depending. When Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon for his attitude towards the boy, Qui-Gon should have told him "I'm not the one to apologize to." Nice place to strengthen (or worsen) the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Jar-Jar should be shoved in with the front line foot soldiers, where he could have had exactly the same misadventures.

Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way.

I can live with Anakin getting stuck in a fighter on autopilot. But lose the unbelievable accidental crap. Let him exhibit whatever visual Force-using method he did in the pod race (see above) and dodge stuff. This is also a spot where the humor of the first three movies was missing here. Anakin should have fired on something that caused the people on the planet more problems first, like knocking aside a laser that took out the top of the building the Jedis were climbing on or something. After he crashes into the bay, let him ask R2 what that big thing over there is. R2 tells him it's the reactor port, and that damage to that could kill Anakin as well. Let Anakin shoot it (on purpose) anyway, and then get pleasantly surprised when his ship escapes damage. That can be as miraculous as you like since that character will have "earned" it in the eyes of the audience.

Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.

[ January 05, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IanO
Member
Member # 186

 - posted      Profile for IanO   Email IanO         Edit/Delete Post 
Very nicely done. All good suggestions.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Foust
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for Foust   Email Foust         Edit/Delete Post 
When we're talking about Star Wars post-RotJ, we need to keep in mind Knights of the Old Republic, the best video game of last year, and the best Star Wars story of the last 20 years.

Anyone else here play that?

Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Chris, you will be the first person to whom I might ever show my highly illegal fanscripts for the prequel trilogy. [Smile]
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chris Bridges
Member
Member # 1138

 - posted      Profile for Chris Bridges   Email Chris Bridges         Edit/Delete Post 
[Smile]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Chris, you will be the first person to whom I might ever show my highly illegal fanscripts for the prequel trilogy.

[ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL]
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ginol_Enam
Member
Member # 7070

 - posted      Profile for Ginol_Enam           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force.
Even having Anakin grab Jar-Jar's tongue in mid-air after seeing Qui-Gon do it once would be something.

That's not how it works. It would require immense training for Anakin to be able tp physically move things with the Force. Remember how hard Luke had to concentrate to grab his lightsaber in the Wampa cave in ESB? Fixing an engine in the middle of a race would far above Anakin's head. And I think the Podrace itself shows just as much use of the Force as grabbing Jar Jar's tongue would. Quick relfexes are wuick reflexes.

quote:
Let Qui-Gon explain the Force to Anakin by showing him instead of telling him. Not only has Anakin never seen it, but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped.
If we were following your rules, Anakin would have seen the Force before Qui-Gon showed him. According to you, Anakin should have been absentmindedly pulling wrenches into his grasp. When Qui-Gon would then show Anakin the Force, would have to recognize what he was doing (and considering his dreams of being a Jedi anyway, it 'd make him the dumbest Star Wars character ever for not noticing what it was) and shrug it away. "Oh I've been doing that for years." It wouldn't work.

And you think lifting rocks would be "new Force moves?" Besides hardly being "new," Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were deflecting lasers and Force pushing droids all over the place in the Trade Federation ship. I'm sure the audience was satisfied with TPM in terms of Force powers used.

quote:
Also a good spot for Anakin to get to do something to prove to himself (and us) that he's Force-ful. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock.
It doesn't matter how strong Anakin is in the Force, he would not be able to move a small rock. That'd be like saying a guy with huge biceps would be able to hit a home run, just based on the size of his muscles. Let's not consider hand eye coordination or anything of that sort. As long as he has the strength, right? It'd be same expecting Anakin to be able to manipulate the Force without training.

YOue ever wonder why Obi-Wan was only becoming a Jedi Knight after twenty years of being a Padawan? Its not supposed to be easy.

quote:
Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.
Well if we're ditching the virgin mother thing, we might as well just say the father's dead or something. Shmi saying she doesn't want to talk about it would serve nothing other than making people ask question that would most likely never get answered.

quote:
The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.
Not only would that then mean that we have to lengthen the tatooine sequence long enough to get even more repair parts (thus nullifying the entire Podracing sequence, anyway), it doesn't fit Darth Maul's character. If he did slice of pieces of the ship, it would be the parts that would most cripple the ship giving him more time to kill everyone on board. Darth Maul does not have fun, he gets the job done.

Besides, that was just a teaser battle for the one at the end. It wasn't supposed to be fun. Not as much anyway.

quote:
When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."
I don't really see what that would really add. If your saying Obi-Wan should be a smart aleck in front of the Council, you need to stop suggesting things to fix Star Wars. Obi-Wan would not spend twenty years of his life training to be a Jedi only to act disrespectful in front of the Council. In front of Qui-Gon, perhaps, who would be more like a father to him than an authority figure. But never in front of the Council.

And if you weren't suggesting Obi-Wan saying anything in front of the Council, then I still don't get what it would add. I would think Obi-Wan says plenty of smart aleck things anyway. "The negotiations were short." etc.

quote:
Some scenes showing us more of the fighting in the Senate might have helped, and the ridiculous floating Mickey Mouse shoes need to just go away. They didn't have the sense of grandeur or majesty that even a small courtroom can have. Put 'em in tiered seats and let 'em argue.
Considering the politics were what a lot of people hated the most (outside of the childishness), I seriously doubt very many people at all would agree with you.

quote:
Give us a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin butt heads, instead of Obi-Wan just not liking him. We need a reason for the animosity and the scene would allow us to identify with one of the other, depending. When Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon for his attitude towards the boy, Qui-Gon should have told him "I'm not the one to apologize to." Nice place to strengthen (or worsen) the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
I personally wouldn't say Obi-Wan was overly rude to Anakin at all. He didn't agree with taking the boy along, and said so to Qui-Gon, but he never more than simply left Anakin alone. Episode I was not about Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. That's Episode II.

quote:
Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way.
Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately. He would have had a reason, which would have had to have been shown, which would have slowed down the movie. A few more small snippets of Darth Maul tracking would have been nice, but hardly necessary. There are very many people who find Darth Maul cool enough as he is. No need to try to milk it.

quote:
Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.
Again, Darth Maul is not playful. He was trying to kill the Jedi and that was joy enough for him. He didn't need to toy with them. Besides, he was tough but not so tough as to be able to just play with Jedi. He was fighting just as hard as Anakin and Obi-Wan were.

And the rest of the fight could have been done like that, or it could have been done like it was already. Why change it? It adds nothing more to the scene. In fact, it would have to cut out the entire one-on-one duel between Kenobi and Maul (my favorite part), since I doubt Qui-Gon would have allowed himself to be killed for an opening that may or may not come 20 moves later. And since you are so intent on making everything about Maul "cooler," destroying the best part of the Maul fight would be counter-productive.

Some of these things you've listed are downright ludicrous when placed into the Star Wars universe, or unnecessary as a whole. While I agree that TPM could have been done a lot better, it would not have been your way. Not without even more corrections to your...corrections.

PS: Anything I didn't quote, etc. I pretty much agreed with. Just FYI. Not all was bad, just the parts above.

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sarcasticmuppet
Member
Member # 5035

 - posted      Profile for sarcasticmuppet   Email sarcasticmuppet         Edit/Delete Post 
The first thing I would have done was NOT KILL QUI-GON! [Smile]
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Ginol, almost everything you said was wrong. Luckily, there were some things you didn't say, because you agreed with Chris -- and on those things, you were right.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chris Bridges
Member
Member # 1138

 - posted      Profile for Chris Bridges   Email Chris Bridges         Edit/Delete Post 
Thing is, I don't know anything more about the Star Wars universe than is in the movies, and one or two of the books. I don't know that Darth Maul wouldn't have done any of that. All I know of him is what's on the screen, and it didn't impress me. He wouldn't be playful? Fine. Show him being relentless.

And I think the Podrace itself shows just as much use of the Force as grabbing Jar Jar's tongue would.

I'll concede the unliklihood of the rock-moving, but I can't give you this. I don't get anything out of Anakin during the pod race. The goggles block his face and he barely moves.

Fast racing.
Anakin stares at screen.
Pod explodes.
Anakin stares at screen.
Another pod explodes.
Anakin stares at screen.
Another lap, much like the rest of them.
Anakin stares at screen.

Introducing Luke into the mysteries of the Force was fun to watch. Anakin's introduction felt like sitting in a clinic.

Well if we're ditching the virgin mother thing, we might as well just say the father's dead or something. Shmi saying she doesn't want to talk about it would serve nothing other than making people ask question that would most likely never get answered.

So? I don't mind mysteries in movies. I do mind a poor plot point trying to add mythos to a character who doesn't need it. Maybe virgin birth children are common on Tattoine, I dunno, but I would have expected her to either keep quiet about it or reveal it only carefully, and then in a much more emotional scene as that, not like she was describing his first baby tooth.

...it doesn't fit Darth Maul's character.

Again, how do I know that? All I know about him is that he has a skin condition. I would settle for at least one scene of him tracking, something to show his character.

If your saying Obi-Wan should be a smart aleck in front of the Council, you need to stop suggesting things to fix Star Wars.

Actually I was suggesting he say something as an aside to Qui-Gon, not as a proclamation to the councilm but I didn't make that clear.

Considering the politics were what a lot of people hated the most (outside of the childishness), I seriously doubt very many people at all would agree with you.

They would if the politics didn't bore them. Granted, working exposition into a scene without losing your audience isn't easy, but I think it could have been done better than this was.

Episode I was not about Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. That's Episode II.


Not suggesting it should have been. I would have appreciated thirty seconds of screen time to establish their relationship at that point, though. When Obi-Wan agrees to train the boy at the end, we know he's not thrilled with the idea. It would have had more impact if we'd seen them interacting beforehand and gotten an idea of how stressed (or not) their relationship was. By the time Episode II starts that's already been resolved.

Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately.

Again, how do I know that?

A few more small snippets of Darth Maul tracking would have been nice, but hardly necessary.

I'd settle for one decent one, ideally something that reveals his character. Or, if that's impossible, how about a reference from Sidious?

"What about the Jedi?"
"I've unleashed Darth Maul. There's no escape for them now but the grave," or something suitably cheesy.

I should have been afraid of him. I should have been dreading his appearance in every scene because of how evil or mean or just terrifyingly efficient he was. I wasn't.

Again, Darth Maul is not playful. He was trying to kill the Jedi and that was joy enough for him. He didn't need to toy with them. Besides, he was tough but not so tough as to be able to just play with Jedi. He was fighting just as hard as Anakin and Obi-Wan were.

One thing that also might have helped, and not just here. Where are the injuries during lightsaber duels? We seem to have only three possibilities: death, lopped-off hand, or no harm at all.
The number of lopped off hands in the Star Wars universe isn't that unlikely. In any swordfight the hand and arm is an obvious target, and when your weapon can slice right through things lopping is almost inevitable. But why not other injuries? Slashes, cuts, a kidney stab? One of the scenes I remember from Splinter of the Mind's Eye was Luke activating his saber while someone was standing behind him, which made perfect sense to me.
How about if I leave the last battle alone, but we add in numerous near-fatal injuries, along with at least the same level of damaged surroundings that occurred in, say, the Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?

I will admit that the last battle wouldn't have been nearly as ludicrous to me if someone in the Star Wars universe would put some freaking railings on their thirty-story walkovers.

Some of these things you've listed are downright ludicrous when placed into the Star Wars universe, or unnecessary as a whole.

Only if you look past the movies. If I have to know the entire Star Wars Canon, read every book and comic and play every video game, just to enjoy the movie, I'll just stay at home, thanks.

Some of the things I suggested are, in their own way, just as illogical as what they replace. But what they're there for is to involve the audience, to show us what we need to see, to bring us into this created world and be so swept away we don't notice the cracks here and there. When I watched the movies, mostly what I saw were the cracks.

[ January 05, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ginol_Enam
Member
Member # 7070

 - posted      Profile for Ginol_Enam           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'll concede the unliklihood of the rock-moving, but I can't give you this. I don't get anything out of Anakin during the pod race. The goggles block his face and he barely moves.

Introducing Luke into the mysteries of the Force was fun to watch. Anakin's introduction felt like sitting in a clinic.

The idea was that podracing is a very very fast and dangerous sport, more so to a 10 year old human. The fact that Anakin could do it alone, the relfexes he would have to require, etc., should be enough to establish he has the Force, at least to some degree. I can understand some shots maybe wanting to see Anakin "seeing" something before it happens, but any controlled use of the Force would be... Incorrect.

quote:
So? I don't mind mysteries in movies. I do mind a poor plot point trying to add mythos to a character who doesn't need it. Maybe virgin birth children are common on Tattoine, I dunno, but I would have expected her to either keep quiet about it or reveal it only carefully, and then in a much more emotional scene as that, not like she was describing his first baby tooth.
The virgin birth is supposed to show that Anakin is the prophesized one. Anakin was pretty much the Force creating what it needed to blanace itself out. The scene revealing that could probably have been handled well (Shmi most certainly would have thought about it more than, "He's special.") But I don't think it so out of place to need to change it.

quote:
Again, how do I know that? All I know about him is that he has a skin condition. I would settle for at least one scene of him tracking, something to show his character.
Alright, there could have been a scene or two perhaps explaining Maul a little, but given Maul's status as pretty much a mere tool for Sidious, I don't think it would have drastically increased the quality of the movie.

quote:
Actually I was suggesting he say something as an aside to Qui-Gon, not as a proclamation to the councilm but I didn't make that clear.
Alright.

quote:
They would if the politics didn't bore them. Granted, working exposition into a scene without losing your audience isn't easy, but I think it could have been done better than this was.
Well, that depends. People were going into Episode I expecting a movie pretty much exactly like the classic trilogy, only a generation back. Since the Classic Trilogy didn't have any politics except for a throwaway line explaning the disbandment of the Senate, a lot of people were... I don't know. It was what they were expecting. I doubt that any political scenes would have been well received no matter how wonderful they were.

quote:
Not suggesting it should have been. I would have appreciated thirty seconds of screen time to establish their relationship at that point, though. When Obi-Wan agrees to train the boy at the end, we know he's not thrilled with the idea. It would have had more impact if we'd seen them interacting beforehand and gotten an idea of how stressed (or not) their relationship was. By the time Episode II starts that's already been resolved.
I don't really think it would added that much. Its very easy to see where Obi-Wan's and Anakin's relationship was at the end of TPM even without exposition. I got it when I was eleven years old, I don't really think it was complicated at all. And its not hard to imagine that relationship growing into the one the pair had in AotC. Its doesn't need to be explained.

quote:
One thing that also might have helped, and not just here. Where are the injuries during lightsaber duels? We seem to have only three possibilities: death, lopped-off hand, or no harm at all.
Depending on the character the injuries can't be too serious, of course. The Jedi are strong, but not all powerful. There has to be a limit to how much a character can be damaged.

In Episode I, in particular, the only character, I think, who could really have been damaged was Qui-Gon. If Darth Maul was injured during just the normal fight, it would have taken some of the threat away. I think the fight at the end gains a lot of suspense just simply because it was two against one, and the one was holding his own; perhaps even winning. Obi-Wan couldn't have been damaged too badly since he does have to survive.

Then if you consider Episode II where Obi-Wan is actually damaged besides arm and death (he gets "cut" [burned would probably more correct, hoewever] both in the shoulder and hip in the fight with Dooku), you'll see he was completely knocked out of the fight even after 10 more years of training and experience after Episode I.

Qui-Gon getting damaged before his death would have just been adding on unnecessary punishment. While that would be good for some other movies, I don't think it would really fit Star Wars. At least that scene, and especially in Episode I where Lucas tried to aim even more towards children.

quote:
How about if I leave the last battle alone, but we add in numerous near-fatal injuries, along with at least the same level of damaged surroundings that occurred in, say, the Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?
Structural damage works in some battles, less so in others. The battle in TPM was between two very well trained and experienced duelists and an almost fully trained apprentice. They fight with far more finesse than a drunken brawler with claws and his female counter-part.

Besides, you have plenty of structural damage in Episode II and the Classic trilogy where everyone's trying to chuck debris at each other with the Force.

quote:
I will admit that the last battle wouldn't have been nearly as ludicrous to me if someone in the Star Wars universe would put some freaking railings on their thirty-story walkovers.
Yep.

quote:
Only if you look past the movies. If I have to know the entire Star Wars Canon, read every book and comic and play every video game, just to enjoy the movie, I'll just stay at home, thanks.[/quote}

Well, I think "understand" better fits than "enjoy," but I concede.

[quote]Some of the things I suggested are, in their own way, just as illogical as what they replace. But what they're there for is to involve the audience, to show us what we need to see, to bring us into this created world and be so swept away we don't notice the cracks here and there. When I watched the movies, mostly what I saw were the cracks.

I can understand where you're coming from, I just don't think you're going the right direction. I don't think TPM's problems were so much in the story itself or in scenes that could be added, but just the mishandling of what's already there. Mostly in terms of the mismanagement of what's funny and what's serious and exactly how much darker the underlying story is, as opposed to what George Lucas presented.

To make myself feel better, I like to rationalize it by thinking that Lucas was trying to give us some light-heartedness before the gradual increasing darkness in II and III. Spoonful of sugar...

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?
Yuriko

Or Lady Deathstrike, depending on where in the timeline you want to look. But even at that they totally screwed up her character in the movie. Wolverine and her were supposed to have a long history together, but they totally erased all that.

Then again this has nothing to do with Star Wars, it's just an in general rant about comic books being screwed up on the journey to the big screen.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Choobak
Member
Member # 7083

 - posted      Profile for Choobak   Email Choobak         Edit/Delete Post 
Wow ! I am impressed by all you can write about Star Wars ! Unfortunatelly, i can't follow all of that and must read in diagonal [Frown]

Ok, Neo-dragon, I understand better about the third trilogy.

I don't think G.L. was inspirate a lot by the WW2.
I think he made a story about The young boy with his friend the old Wizard (like bilbo and gandalf) who go to the tavern to form a team. This team was the Big Warrior and the good and crafty robber. They want to help the princess napped by the Black knight and after that go to destroy the Dark Emperor Castel.

I think Georges Lucas play Roles playing games as ad&d...

Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WheatPuppet
Member
Member # 5142

 - posted      Profile for WheatPuppet   Email WheatPuppet         Edit/Delete Post 
Luke takes 2D12 damage from the wampa ice monster! George, roll me some initiative! [/geeky_voice] [Big Grin]

I agree with many of the previous comments about Episode I. What character development that did exist was done in a fairly tactless way. I always cringe when Anakin asks Padme, "Are you an Angel?" and proceeds to tell an interesting but very poorly acted story about space angels. As any high school writing teacher would say, It's telling, not showing.

I also have trouble plotting the line between Anakin in PM and Anakin in AotC. He goes from good natured boy to sullen teenager, and there's little that reveals why. Maybe Obi-Wan beat him or something (kidding [Wink] ). Maybe he's just being a teenager, but then why would the Jedi want to train children, when they are so dangerous as adolescants? I'd deny them any real training until they were emotionally stable 20-year-olds. In any case, there should be some foreshadowing of the conflict between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Also, it was my understanding that in the Star Wars universe, force-sensitive people do exhibit force abilities independent of training. It was also my understanding that there were force users outside of the Jedi and had no formal training in the use (or even existence) of the force. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Darth Maul was a stupid character. Darth Sideous would want an intelligent and cruel apprentice before one that was just trained in the lightsaber. Any tweak can learn to use a lightsaber, given time, it's the cunning and the evil that I'd look for, as a dark lord. It would be really cool to have a scene where Maul was "extracting" information from an informant at the point of a lightsaber.

I would like to see many more near-misses and glancing blows in lightsaber duels. It would be really interesting to see the blades whiz past our protagonists close enough to slice robes and perahps hair. Another cool moment could be when two sabers lock, and the audience watches as our protagonist's saber is forced into his own clothing, slowly cooking it (CGI effects, of course). The hero then regains his strength (or whatever) and the lock is broken. The hero isn't hurt, but tensions are high for a few seconds.

Also, I'm tired of rehashes of the same Star Wars space battle. The battle above Naboo was basically the same as the two Death Star battles: fly inside the enemy ship, shoot it, fly out. I would've loved to see a Naboo cruiser lift off from the capital city, and fly up there to engage in a capital ship v. capital ship slug fest. A pivotal moment could been when the Naboo ship--after holding its own against many Trade Federation ships--is overwhelmed rendered a burning hulk in space (none of this spastically blowing up sillyness) as the last of its vapors are blown out of its wrecked hull. Meanwhile Anakin zips around in little art-deco fighter and ends up saving the day. Or something.

I may have missed something--why are the trade federation ships also highly proficient warships? It's usually hard to make a good warship-freighter combo becuase it's hard to find room for cargo and good guns.

Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IanO
Member
Member # 186

 - posted      Profile for IanO   Email IanO         Edit/Delete Post 
On Darth Maul and his "playing" with the Jedi, I think that is exactly what he would have done.

Even the crappy EU stuff on Darth Maul shows his arrogance and desire to show up the Jedi and how superior the Sith are. This is hinted at in TPM, when DM says to Sidious, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will take our revenge," and his hubris in taking on 2 Jedi at once. But while this is hinted at, making him more than a walking lightsaber would have done an number of things. It would have been more menacing, both in terms of, 'wow, Sidious is something to have this beast under his absolute control,' and also showing the rage of the Sith, explaining it, fleshing out the character of this Sith apprentice, and making him much more menacing. I do believe he would have been casual in his violence as he searched for his enemy. Again, I'm not the only one. EU crap shows this too.

As it is, we see Sidious being manipulative and the offscreen results are death and violence (the Naboo invasion/war). But the results are largely offscreen. Oh, and we see him speaking to a bunch of morons (Nemoidians). Way to go with your bad self, Sidious. He seemed- what's the word?- not malevolent, but more just there and mildly bad. He should have oozed evil and malevolence. The contrast between his private persona (Sidious) and his public (Palpatine) would have been interesting to see and made the Palpatine scenes resonate with foreboding. They don't really, as much as I did enjoy his machinations.

And Anakin could definitely been less "accidental" about everything he did (as I hear the "Phantom Edit" version makes him).

Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sarcasticmuppet
Member
Member # 5035

 - posted      Profile for sarcasticmuppet   Email sarcasticmuppet         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I may have missed something--why are the trade federation ships also highly proficient warships? It's usually hard to make a good warship-freighter combo becuase it's hard to find room for cargo and good guns.
I somehow read "guns" as "puns" and thought you were making a joke that I didn't get. [Blushing]
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
From the previews for the new Star Wars movie, I feel that it may be better than I orginally thought but it still won't be too good. Oh yes and bump. [Razz]
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm divided.

Half of me wants to argue with the non believers here who find it their mission in life to destroy the Prequels and uplift the original three.

The other half doesn't think it's worth it, because no minds will ever be changed.

But I will say this. If Episode III is godlike, half the people who hated the first two still won't like it, becuase they have themselves worked up into a tizzy. Either way, most people who hate the first two already have a firm idea that the third will suck, and nothing they see in the third one will sway them.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
I was looking over some physics problems the other day, and discussing them with a colleague. There was one problem we weren't quite sure how to solve, involving some orbits. So we discussed using the potential energy, but couldn't get that to work. "Can we use Kepler's Laws?" Nah... "Let's see, we know the masses involved... Use the force?" I swear, I didn't know that was going to come out of my mouth until I said it. [Big Grin] We eventually ended up solving it with conservation of angular momentum.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
KOM- I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lyrham- I agree. I like the original trilogy, and I like the second movie in the prequels, I thought Phantom Menace was too slow. Anyway, I'm sure I'll see it and I'm sure I'll like it. But I still don't think these can compare to the original trilogy. Personally, I think the advance in special effects just makes the prequels worse, they're like a fancy light show.

Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
I think the original trilogy was better too...depending.

I don't like to compare them though, they are based on totally and entirely different premises.

One is about the fall of someone from light to dark, the end of a great republic and the start of empire, the end of freedom and the start of tyranny.

The other is the opposite, the fall of a dark lord and the rising of a hero of light, the end of an empire and the start of a new republic, the end of oppression and the redawn of freedom.

How do you compare two things that are totally different? Space battles in the original three were rarely seen because the Rebel Alliance barely had any ships, and I admit being disappointed with the space battles in the new trilogy thus far, but I expect it to get better in the third prequel. As for special effects, I can respect your opinion, but I like...70% of the flashier CGI work. Some of it is too overdone and makes everything look artificial, but the majority of it to me is good.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
I compare them because they are both about Anakin Skywalker. Lucas admits that Luke was just a side character in the larger story of Anakin. I feel that the third trilogy is better because the plot seems more thought out. The prequels are flashy and seem to be just a way to get publicity and increase the size of his fan base, an attempt to entertain children and make them fans. If the third movie has any plot at all, then I will be wrong. But until then, I feel it is just a light show meant to enslave children.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
It's true the first two are much more lacking in plot than the original three. But, to defend Lucas at least a little bit:

The original story arc takes place over the course of a couple years. It's an easier to manage timeline, and there is enough time to introduce the plot in a well defined manner, along with the characters, who are by themselves already fully developed when they are first onscreen (with the exception of Luke).

The new one on the other hand takes place over the course of almost thirty years. He has to introduce Anakin, involve him with a woman, at the same time he has to show Palpatine's rise to power, create galactic conflict, and then he has to start Anakin's fall, while being involved with a woman, kill off the entire Jedi Order he spent the first two movies introducing, and show the total fall to the dark side.

You have to admit that is a lot of ground for him to cover in three movies. If he leaves any of it out, people complain that he left stuff out and that the movies suck because they don't explain enough. If he moves through it too fast and tries to cover all his bases, people complain that there's too much to it and that he doesn't stop to take the time to explain finer points.

In the end it's his own fault, he painted himself into that corner with the originial trilogy, but at the same time, people need to cut him a break, I highly doubt they could do any better.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Risare
New Member
Member # 7668

 - posted      Profile for Risare   Email Risare         Edit/Delete Post 
Yare yare...

Okay, first i'd like to say...
I really liked Chris' additions.
I sure as hell would have enjoyed the movie more... or wait, would i still be picking on it?! [Confused] i don't know!!!!

[Smile] Regardless...

Sure they have some issues, and i am decently acquainted with the books and other SW media...but if Lucas is going to screw with/change/disregard those books (ex: Clone Wars and Bobba) why not some of this other stuff? :: shrugs :: I still think that the movies would have been more enjoyable with a bit more character thrown in. And i'm going to save everyone the time and say that i agree with his(Chris') aesthetic points.

Does it bother anyone else that Qui-Gon's relationship with Obi-Wan isn't all that... there? I know i know, they can't get into it too much due to time. But isn't it the mark of real creative genius to be able to show some of that along the way? You know, little bits here and there, perhaps a bit more emotion in regards to each other (i'm sure Anakin's wasn't the only one who had problems with the demands of being a Jedi on said person's humanity).

Me? For some reason, i don't remember why, i picked up and ended up reading the really little Young Adult books of the Jedi Apprentice series. And while they weren't all that great either, they really helped me become more involved in their Master/Padawan bond. I mean, Qui-Gon's last words to Obi-Wan were all about Anakin. I dunno about anyone else, but wouldn't that kinda bother YOU? Jedi or no Jedi...I was thinking about that even before i picked the books up, mind you.

Nit picky?
Sure, maybe a bit.

But what i love the most about movies, books, comics, anime; is characters. Not so much CG or continuity... but the people on screen coming off as people that connect back to the audience and realistic human existence. And we all know that these people can act, so it must be the lines or the direction. You know?

I didn't mind the movies. And let's face it, even the originals had their share of corny lines. ( and it's all the Monomyth anyway [Wink] )

Anyway, i had some other thoughts...
...but my room has been invaded and i was sucked into a Harrison Ford Movie conversation and now i've lost track...

It'll come back to me. [Wall Bash]


All in all, i've really enjoyed reading all these posts. And while looking too deeply into something you love can be concidered a bad thing, i think it helps, actually. I mean, would we be arguing if we didn't like it on some level? [Cool]

[ March 29, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Risare ]

Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
A fairly sensible argument.

I still think the bond between Obiwan and Quigon was shown somewhat well. The thing is though, it's a teacher-student relationship. Not father-son, not brother-brother, or any more familial relationship. The fact that Obiwan at the end of the first movie vowed to defy Master Yoda, and then threatened Yoda with that is testament enough to how high a regard he felt for Quigon.

I totally agree with you about how he messed up Boba Fett. I was so angry about that.

I wouldn't have had a problem with Lucas making the movies each an hour longer to include all the stuff the complainers feel is missing. There's a flaw I'm willing to admit. One of the previous few [Smile]

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Risare
New Member
Member # 7668

 - posted      Profile for Risare   Email Risare         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The fact that Obiwan at the end of the first movie vowed to defy Master Yoda, and then threatened Yoda with that is testament enough to how high a regard he felt for Quigon.
Oooh that is true... [Smile] that had kinda slipped my mind. :: looks guilty ::
It does show it...
....but is it enough? hmm, hmm?! [Razz]

And it was after the fact...before hand would have made his death more effective, perhaps? I remember my neighbors (who saw it with me, and were also fans) going "i felt like i was being forced to care" about Qui's death.

On a happier note: anyone else heard the Star Wars/John William's song by a group called Moosebutter?? [ROFL] Not enough people know what i'm talking about...

Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I'll give you that point, it should have been earlier. Would have made his death more powerful.

And yeah, someone just posted that moosebutter song. It's the best thing since sliced bread! I love it! I almost died of a asthma attack from lack of oxygen. Fantastically awesome song. My friends and I had a blast picking out all the John Williams themes.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
His Savageness
Member
Member # 7428

 - posted      Profile for His Savageness   Email His Savageness         Edit/Delete Post 
As someone who's only casually read any of the EU books (the excellent Zahn books and some of the really, really horrible Jason Anderson books) I don't know how Bobba Fett was supposed to get started. Everyone keeps mentioning how Lucas screwed it up, can someone fill me in?

I didn't hate the first two movies, but I didn't love them either. I agree with most of Chris's and would like to add one: make Anakin older. A lot of the things he did in TPM would have made more sense to me coming from a 12/13 year old than a seven year old.

Posts: 194 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Boba Fett (this is from memory, so I don't have all the details on me) was supposed to be Jaster Mareel, a former Journeyman Protector from some backwater planet. Basically he was a law officer but something made him go bad, I don't remember what, I think it was the corruption in the system.

He wasn't supposed to be a clone. His father was not Jango Fett.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Also just because I'm bored, I'll cover Chris' suggestions. I hadn't commented before because I felt Ginol had covered all the points well and I agreed with him. But I'll elaborate:

quote:
Change the alien accents, or use subtitles.
Relatively small plot point, but I'll give you that. Though personally I think just as many people would have complained about that either way.

quote:
Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force.
This is a horrible idea. Utterly horrible. Jedi can't lift rocks and do those kinds of things absentmindedly, or after five minutes of training. In the first movies it worked, because Obiwan had been guiding Luke all along the way, and then gave him a lightsaber. The podrace, while a little overdone, was meant to show his reflexes with the force, as Quigon explained in the movie to those who paid attention.

quote:
but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock.
Dump the mitichlorians fine, but other than that all bad ideas. There aren't really any new force moves. Levitation, Force push, those telekinetic things that we see visually is really all there is to it. You're just trying variations on a theme, and they don't fit with the prexisting standard of Jedi development.

quote:
Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.
Alright, I'll give you that one. It ruins the whole chosen one, conceived by the Force thing, but whatever.

The Anakin's mother thing, well, alright I can see that happening too. It would have set up the Episode II Anakin freak out a lot better, since we really aren't given a reason to believe he missed his mother that much. But that is the price you pay in skipping your timelime ahead 10 years between movies.

I'll also go along with the showing the effects of the blockade thing. Especially if this replaces the stupid underwater chase scene, which took up valuable screen time for virtually no plot movement. Underwater droid attacks would have been just as stupid. Should have cut the whole scene.

quote:
The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.
Again, stupid. They just spent the last hour of the movie fixing the damn ship, you want them to break it again? They'd spend the entire movie on Tatooine!

quote:
When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."
I don't think you understand Quigon or especially Obiwan. Obiwan is split between his obedience to the Council and his devotion to his master. And if Quigon had committed treason by not telling the Council of his plans, and having two padawans, that would have really screwed with the future plot lines when all of a sudden there's a random new powerful Jedi, and all of a sudden Quigon is villified.

I don't know what you mean by the Senate. I thought it was full of grandeur. Tiered seating? How would you ever be able to address the person you wish to speak to across the room in such a setting? I felt it was well done. And I don't know what you mean by Mickey Mouse shoe things, you mean the floating platforms?

I don't think they should butt heads at all, Obiwan and Anakin. You'd be creating a false setting for the second movie. Obiwan takes on a paternal role, you can't make it seem like he resents the boy all along, he doesn't, he's just worried about what will happen to Quigon.

Jar-Jar should be been killed, but I digress.

quote:
Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way
::Sigh:: Again, this sets things in the wrong direction. Darth Sidious is not yet strong enough or in the right position to act so brazenly. That's why Darth Maul is kept a secret for so long. He starts murdering people and running around like a vigilante and that screws with the overall story arc more. And he tracked the Jedi to Tatooine and attacked them there, where else do you want that to happen?

I think the fighter sequence is more like variations on a theme. Your way would work just as well, maybe a little bit better comedically for the reasons you mentioned. But overall it's not a huge difference. I'd let that change happen.

quote:
Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.
Your fight scene suggestion is one of the worst yet. The two Jedi move with the Force in tandem, and their movements come from Force driven instinct, they wouldn't be so easily manipulated, especially not Quigon. Also, what kind of crippling blows do you expect him to inflict with a massive lightsaber? Either you miss, you die, or you chop off a limb and they are out of the fight. Force field, no force field, tomato, tomahto, it's no different. As for the last suggestion, "there is no fear, only the Force." Especially for a Jedi master whose last words were about Anakin. Moreover, I think they could have won if they kept fighting him together, and that set up Obiwan's anger which led to him killing Darth Maul.

Some good suggestions, some very bad ones that just don't fit into the Star Wars universe. You want Lucas to compromise what he has created for the sake of making the movie fit your idea of how Star Wars should be. But there are groundrules in place, if you ignore those, you piss off just as many people.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bob the Lawyer
Member
Member # 3278

 - posted      Profile for Bob the Lawyer   Email Bob the Lawyer         Edit/Delete Post 
See, Chris is suggesting how to make the movie flow better so people care about what happens to the characters. Which is what we're looking at here, the movies should be driven by the strength of the characters and the throw away richness of the world. It wasn't and it sucked in pretty much every important criteria a movie can suck in. The acting was terrible, though Liam really tried he support the movie like Harrison did, the pacing poorly thought out, the exposition either missing or laughable, and the plot couldn't drive the piece because we already knew what was going to happen.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
"Some good suggestions, some very bad ones that just don't fit into the Star Wars universe."

See, you don't get to use that sentence in defense of Lucas. [Smile] For what it's worth, I think Chris is almost 100% right on target.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Well I guess I can't argue with you because we're looking at other things.

You just want any old sci fi movie that fits and works as any old sci fi movie.

I want Star Wars. Star Wars has rules, many of which Steve wanted to break with his suggestions, and what I think are his misunderstandings of some of the characters. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheTick
Member
Member # 2883

 - posted      Profile for TheTick   Email TheTick         Edit/Delete Post 
Where are these rules established, though? We know GL pretty much only looks at the other movies as canon, and he's pretty liberal with that himself. Having not devoured every SW book out there (KJA killed them for me and I never recovered) many of his suggestions sound okay to me. [Dont Know]
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
"I want Star Wars. Star Wars has rules, many of which Steve wanted to break with his suggestions..."

Bah. [Smile] I solemnly guarantee you that I'm as big of a geek as you are, and none of the changes Chris has proposed here are as big as some of the changes Lucas already made to his own canon. *grin*

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
As I stated on GalacticCactus, Ruth and I have decided that the biggest problem with Episode I is that it's simply a poor place to start the trilogy. The conflict isn't that interesting, so you don't get a chance to see how interesting the characters are. All it really does is introduce everything for Episode II. But then you have to jump ahead ten years before it starts to get really interesting.

I think Chris's suggestions are generally very good, but I like mine better: skip the Episode I plot and start with the imminent threat of the Clone Wars.

Edit: Also, here's an explanation of what's wrong with the characters in the prequels. It probably helps to understand Peircian logic.

[ March 30, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]

Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Steve wanted to break with his suggestions, and what I think are his misunderstandings of some of the characters.
And what suggestions might those be?
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
For the love of God I'm having a bad day with names. Sorry Steve, I meant Chris.

You all should have seen me this morning trying to juggle 20 servers' names at the restaurant I work at, it was mayhem. My apologies again.

Like I said before, the suggestions Chris made (hah! got it right that time!)are all well and good for any old sci fi movie. I like a lot of what the EU established (yes, with the exception of KJA, and definetely the NJO, but there is enough in there to be worth saving, such as Zahn and Stackpole). But what it all comes down to is point of view. I think there is still a large majority of people who loved the films, all of them, and would be angered by the suggestions made.

Lucas will never make everyone happy, I think at this point he's just trying to make himself happy (maybe that's all he ever did, who knows?).

I also agree that Episode I was poorly, very poorly set in the timeline of the story arc. I almost think it would have been better to introduce him as a teenager and then explain the backstory as they went. At least then Episode II would have made a lot more sense, and he (Anakin) could have actually played a vital role in Episode I.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
And then we wouldn't have needed Jar Jar!!!!!!!!! [Party]
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Something for which we all could have been thankful for.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheTick
Member
Member # 2883

 - posted      Profile for TheTick   Email TheTick         Edit/Delete Post 
At least we agree on that. [Big Grin]
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
Exactly. [Smile]

And think: what do you really lose if you skip the current Episode I plot? Very little, and I think you could easily work it into the new Episode I that starts ten years later.

Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
I think Jar Jar was the low point in Lucas's career. I think he didn't believe that the prequel would do so well so he targeted it towards little children, thus the creation of Jar Jar. The second movie was much better, though Jar Jar was still there. I pray he won't be in the third one.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chris Bridges
Member
Member # 1138

 - posted      Profile for Chris Bridges   Email Chris Bridges         Edit/Delete Post 
Half of me wants to argue with the non believers here who find it their mission in life to destroy the Prequels and uplift the original three.

The other half doesn't think it's worth it, because no minds will ever be changed.


I'm not a nonbeliever. Or a believer, for that matter. Yes, even in this, I'm agnostic...
What I am is a moviegoer who was disappointed, and I tried to explain why.

I don't proclaim the original trilogy as being perfection on earth and the new trilogy as being total scum., If you read my posts in this thread before this page you'll see where I admit that the first three movies had major plot holes and that I liked the story arc of the prequels.

My Armchair Director(TM) point was that there was little in the prequels to invest me in the characters. I didn't really care what happened to them. I still don't. And I wanted to.

I wanted to see Anakin's sense of wonder, see him discover abilities within himself and get excited about learning more.
I wanted to see his joy and pain because he's leaving his mother behind to discover his destiny.
I wanted to see bonds of affection and respect between Obi Wan and Qui-Gon and see them tested and strained with the new kid.
I wanted to see Anakin do things instead of reacting and getting lucky.
I wanted to see Darth Maul and get excited because I knew something cool was about to happen, and feel nervous for the heroes because I knew he was always there.

I liked Sidious. I liked the overall idea behind the stories. I liked the other Jedis. But I just couldn't connect with the main characters -- with the possible exception of Padme -- and so I had plenty of time to notice plot holes and annoyances.

An example. I suggested putting hints of some Force abilities in the pod race, but some here suggest that it would have been impossible. Fair enough. Try this: at the most dangerous part of the race, as the music swells and his pod has problems and people are crashing around him, give me just one scene of Anakin's eyes losing focus slightly and cut the music suddenly to something haunting and mystical, with all the other background noises dimmed slightly. Let the race continue, with a cut to someone in the audience watching with binoculars and muttering, "That kid's amazing" or something, with a focus-cut to Qui-Gon behind the speaker, smiling slightly and nodding.
There was nothing in the entire pod race to suggest that he did anything besides hang on and get lucky.

And we could have gotten some scene somewhere of Anakin being trained, even a little. The pod race lasted what, 10 minutes? I could have done without a few laps.

Having him cry or anguish over his mother would not have added any screen time at all. Just direct him to be upset when they part.

What we ended up with was an emotionless kid who can keep his foot on a gas pedal, with everyone around him talking about how powerful he is. Yawn.

The crime against Darth Maul was that he was never menacing. Dangerous, sure. But not crafty, not cunning, not menacing. Disappointing.

[ March 30, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, I don't think that's why he made Jar-Jar. I'd bet he was pretty confident that Episode I would do amazingly well. I think he just forgot how to create a well-balanced set of characters; or rather, maybe the bad plotting threw off the characters, forcing Jar-Jar into the role of the throwaway comic relief.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Well they couldn't have skipped Episode I and went to II directly. The only real plot elements needed from Episode I are Anakin leaving his mother to train as a Jedi, him being too old, and Obiwan is the one who is training him, and the chosen one balance theory.

Moving Episode I ahead to say, seven years in the future introduces Anakin as a teenager in the middle of his Jedi training. We start to see him acting like a stuck up whiney know it all like later, they meet up with an attractive young woman (Padme), perhaps in her dealings with the Galactic Senate, and she asks Obiwan about Anakin. Obiwan explains that Anakin was taken from Tatooine after him and his master were stranded there by a bad set of circumstances.

Now we have Anakin's backstory, our female love ineterest, and a whole two hours to explore Obiwan/Anakin relationship development! And all it took was a fifteen minute flashback/Q&A from Padme. Plus throughout the whole film, we perhaps can start to see the beginnings of what becomes the droid army, giving us a sense of urgency, like something huge is coming. They end it with a major victory, but not a complete one, we get a cliffhanger that leads us into Episode II.

Suddenly Episode II makes a lot more sense. The romance between Anakin and Padme isn't so awkward and unbelievable. The friction between Anakin and Obiwan isn't out of nowhere, and we see where it all stems from. We already know a droid army threat is out there, and the weird Dooku line isn't random, it's something we've known has been coming, but still hits us hard. There's no more stupid Jedi fighting in the arena scene like before. Instead they put the clone element in, just as in the real Episode II, clones rush off to help the Jedi fight a battle against droids on some world (maybe Naboo? show some real suffering, some real war? We have time for it now). And we're back where we are now, only the characters are all 100 times more well developed, and we are attached to them all as never before. Now Episode III is set up to be heart wrenching and emotional, as well as exciting and dramatic.

Also make them a half hour longer. If we can put up with LOTR being three hours or more longer, we can deal with Star Wars too.

Edit to add: Sorry, I'm just extremely defensive about Star Wars, and sometimes I just can't control myself [Frown]

I like some of your revised ideas there, and yeah, I could have done without some of the laps too.

Second edit to add: No one is a bigger Star Wars geek than me [Big Grin] . I'm the kind of geek that can name off Chewbacca's extended family, the type of blaster Han Solo wears, and name the temples on Yavin 4. Most of it is EU, but still, it's an impressive amount of knowledge about geekdom.

[ March 30, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chris Bridges
Member
Member # 1138

 - posted      Profile for Chris Bridges   Email Chris Bridges         Edit/Delete Post 
That works for me. [Smile]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TMedina
Member
Member # 6649

 - posted      Profile for TMedina   Email TMedina         Edit/Delete Post 
Fett
Boba Fett's lack of ability was never an issue in 5 and 6 because for the most part he didn't need to do anything but look menacing.

The fight sequence in 2 during the battle with Obiwan was just painful, but I think we've also been spoiled by just what we expect out of a "really good" fight sequence. That and Fett's selection of gizmos didn't really muster to the mythology behind the character.

Anakin
Anakin's reaction to finding his mother was the most subdued, muted form of anger I have ever seen. His only biological parent has been found, hanging from a torture rack and...he looks like he has gas.

Between that and the one saber slash across the screen, there isn't any hint of just how mad he is and what kind of carnage he wrecks. A single shot of him walking away from a burning camp with bodies littering the field would have been fine.

Sidious
I didn't object to the character since he is the Fist of the Dark Side and as such is not a nice person. He was portrayed as tense and angry, highly aggressive in his fighting technique and general demeanor which contrasted nicely to QuiGon's serene meditation between clashes.

Battles
My objection to the trailers of the Anakin/Obiwan battle is - it was shot in front of a green screen and the background dropped in while the actors staged a fight.

Fine.

But if the background is that of a catwalk about to crash and the actors are fighting like they're standing on stable ground, it takes away from the overall effect and it looks like just a little more CGI draped on shoddy work.

-Trevor

Edit: And yes, the actor inside the Fett armor looked like he was staggering around, which did tarnish the illusion just a bit.

[ March 30, 2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]

Posts: 5413 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
A single shot of him walking away from a burning camp with bodies littering the field would have been fine.
Yes!

Seeing him calmly walk away from the carnage would drive home the fact that he doesn't feel any remorse for what he did—that he had just done something seriously evil and felt justified by his anger.

Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2