posted
Weren't some apostles disciples and some disciples apostles but not all? I mean, there were some apostles that weren't disciples and some disciples who weren't apostles?
EDIT: Dag answered it, but I'm leaving the post because it looks cool (what with all those apostles and disciples).
quote: Weren't some apostles disciples and some disciples apostles but not all? I mean, there were some apostles that weren't disciples and some disciples who weren't apostles?
I was under the impression that apostle means "sent forth" and disciple means "student". While all of the apostles were disciples (or, students of Jesus), the term "apostle" generally refers to the 12 appointed representatives he sent out at the beginning of his ministry, and then one later chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.
So, while one could be both, I believe that they aren't entirely interchangable.
quote:the term "apostle" generally refers to the 12 appointed representatives he sent out at the beginning of his ministry, and then one later chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.
posted
Yes, because Paul received his commission directly from Christ on the Road to Damascus.
More from the Catholic Encyclopedia referenced in my first link, which missed some of the specifics:
quote:The word "Apostle", from the Greek apostello "to send forth", "to dispatch", has etymologically a very general sense. Apostolos (Apostle) means one who is sent forth, dispatched--in other words, who is entrusted with a mission, rather, a foreign mission. It has, however, a stronger sense than the word messenger, and means as much as a delegate. In the classical writers the word is not frequent. In the Greek version of the Old Testament it occurs once, in III Kings, xiv, 6 (cf. ibid., xii, 24). In the New Testament, on the contrary. it occurs, according to Bruder's Concordance, about eighty times, and denotes often not all the disciples of the Lord, but some of them specially called. It is obvious that our Lord, who spoke an Aramaic dialect, gave to some of his disciples an Aramaic title, the Greek equivalent of which was "Apostle". It seems to us that there is no reasonable doubt about the Aramaic word being seliah, by which also the later Jews, and probably already the Jews before Christ, denoted "those who were despatched from the mother city by the rulers of the race on any foreign mission, especially such as were charged with collecting the tribute paid to the temple service" (Lightfoot, "Galatians", London, 1896, p. 93). The word apostle would be an exact rendering of the root of the word seliah,= apostello.
II. VARIOUS MEANINGS
It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called "Apostle". In fact, however, it was reserved to those of the disciples who received this title from Christ. At the same time, like other honourable titles, it was occasionally applied to those who in some way realized the fundamental idea of the name. The word also has various meanings.
* The name Apostle denotes principally one of the twelve disciples who, on a solemn occasion, were called by Christ to a special mission. In the Gospels, however, those disciples are often designated by the expressions of mathetai (the disciples) or dodeka (the Twelve) and, after the treason and death of Judas, even of hendeka (the Eleven). In the Synoptics the name Apostle occurs but seldom with this meaning; only once in Matthew and Mark. But in other books of the New Testament, chiefly in the Epistles of St. Paul and in the Acts, this use of the word is current. Saul of Tarsus, being miraculously converted, and called to preach the Gospel to the heathens, claimed with much insistency this title and its rights. * In the Epistle to the Hebrews (iii, 1) the name is applied even to Christ, in the original meaning of a delegate sent from God to preach revealed truth to the world. * The word Apostle has also in the New Testament a larger meaning, and denotes some inferior disciples who, under the direction of the Apostles, preached the Gospel, or contributed to its diffusion; thus Barnabas (Acts, xiv, 4, 14), probably Andronicus and Junias (Rom., xvi, 7), Epaphroditus (Phil., ii, 25), two unknown Christians who were delegated for the collection in Corinth (II Cor., vii, 23). We know not why the honourable name of Apostle is not given to such illustrious missionaries as Timothy, Titus, and others who would equally merit it.
There are some passages in which the extension of the word Apostle is doubtful, as Luke, xi, 49; John, xiii, 16; II Cor., 13; I Thes., ii, 7; Ephes., iii, 5; Jude, 17, and perhaps the well-known expression "Apostles and Prophets". Even in an ironical meaning the word occurs (II Cor., xi, 5; xii, 11) to denote pseudo-apostles. There is but little to add on the use of the word in the old Christian literature. The first and third meanings are the only ones which occur frequently, and even in the oldest literature the larger meaning is seldom found.
posted
*dagnabbit!* a lot of this is redundant to Dagonee's previous post...
AJ
The dude named Mark that wrote the book of Mark was definitely *not* one of "The 12 Apostles" Mack. Not often I tell you you are wrong but I know I'm right on this one
quote: The name Apostle denotes principally one of the twelve disciples who, on a solemn occasion, were called by Christ to a special mission. In the Gospels, however, those disciples are often designated by the expressions of mathetai (the disciples) or dodeka (the Twelve) and, after the treason and death of Judas, even of hendeka (the Eleven). In the Synoptics the name Apostle occurs but seldom with this meaning; only once in Matthew and Mark. But in other books of the New Testament, chiefly in the Epistles of St. Paul and in the Acts, this use of the word is current. Saul of Tarsus, being miraculously converted, and called to preach the Gospel to the heathens, claimed with much insistency this title and its rights. In the Epistle to the Hebrews (iii, 1) the name is applied even to Christ, in the original meaning of a delegate sent from God to preach revealed truth to the world. The word Apostle has also in the New Testament a larger meaning, and denotes some inferior disciples who, under the direction of the Apostles, preached the Gospel, or contributed to its diffusion; thus Barnabas (Acts, xiv, 4, 14), probably Andronicus and Junias (Rom., xvi, 7), Epaphroditus (Phil., ii, 25), two unknown Christians who were delegated for the collection in Corinth (II Cor., vii, 23). We know not why the honourable name of Apostle is not given to such illustrious missionaries as Timothy, Titus, and others who would equally merit it.
Under the larger definition yes both Mark and Paul qualify, but not on the narrow definition of "The Twelve"
posted
Annie - A reference I have states, "Since the apostle James (the brother of John) was not killed until about the year 44 C.E., 'the twelve' were yet alive at the time of Paul’s becoming an apostle. He nowhere includes himself among such 'twelve,' while at the same time he acknowledges no inferiority in his apostleship compared with that of such ones." - Insight on the Scriptures, V.1 pg 127.
posted
Interesting, upon further googling some Greek and Coptic orthodox sites do give St. Mark the title of "Apostle" but I can't find it on any straight Catholic sites. Even if he is an apostle like Paul, as said before, he isn't one of "The Twelve".
posted
So, does anyone know the Aramaic word for an apostle? I'd like to relate that to the Hebrew. (Hey, I might be an Israeli, but one who knows Hebrew well enough to understand Aramaic! Thank my teacher, Dr Shim'oni, for teaching me much in inter-Semitic morphology, and some suffixes' morphological semantics.)
Cheers, JH
[ January 11, 2005, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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quote: I have the opposite. I have an English name in addition to my real name because no one could ever pronounce my real name. Jaime is my English name, Chaim is my real name.
Not no one. I can pronounce it just fine.
quote: What makes a name a Hebrew name?
Tradition, mostly. (Of course, all traditions have to start somewhere, which brings us to your second question.)
quote: Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?
Yes. Alexander is a good example of this. (In Hebrew, it's ah-lek-SAN-der)
posted
I have one of those kick ass indavidual names, Logan. And the thing i loved about that name was as a kid i would always refer myself to Wolveriene Because thats his name.
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I went to school with some kids that's grandparents decided all of their grandchildren should have biblical names. Well these people had five children, that all had several children of their own. Samaritan, Meshach (can't remember spelling), Sarah Jerusha, Moses, Noah, Lazarus, Adam, Charity, and Joesph
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posted
breyerchic: I personally find it annoying when people do that. Like they're trying to make a point, or showing off their Godliness or something.
I'm not saying that's actually what they think, but that's just what it seems like to me.
posted
mph, I guess rivka said that she doesn't mind if her name is capitalized in a thread awhile ago, but I might be mistaking...
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quote: Is it inappropriate to capitalize somebody's name when they don't do it themselves?
I try not to, I fail occasionally, of course. How about if "rivka" comes at the beginning of a sentence?
"Rivka" is an easy one: Rivka is the name, rivka is the pseudonym, or should I say alias. In a case like mph, you never know what to do...
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posted
I know some of our lower-casers (xnera, for example) strongly prefer not to have their SN capitalized. But Jonathan is precisely correct: rivka is my SN, and Rivka is my IRL name. I am perfectly fine with people calling me by either -- online or in person.
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Yes. Alexander is a good example of this. (In Hebrew, it's ah-lek-SAN-der)
Sounds like you are saying that if an Israeli calls a son Alexander and spells it in Hebrew letters, that it makes it a Hebrew name. Or are you just talking about the spelling of it in Hebrew?
Shlomo is a Hebrew name which can be spelled a couple of ways in English, but that doesn't make it an English name...
[ January 12, 2005, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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