quote:Dressing as a terrorist or as a Nazi for, as Tom said, a costume party, doesn't imply support for their beliefs.
If anything, it serves only as a reminder of how monstrous these people are that they can be dressed up as for Halloween (for example, another of my friends came as Anna Nicole Smith) -- and does nothing but further polarize Nazi ideology from contemporary society.
Or maybe it trivializes the very real pain and suffering people have experienced. Would you go trick or treating at a New York fire station wearing a terrorist costume? Would you dress up as a KKK member in Compton?
Like blacwolve said, Harry's job is to be a figurehead. When he goes to a party he knows his actions will be broadcasted all over the world. His Nazi costume is a real slap to all the people who had lost loved ones during WWII.
posted
Would people stop feeling sorry for Prince Harry.
He has no responsibilities. He gets to screw around for his entire life and can have whatever he wants. In exchange, when he does something stupid, it get's in the papers and he has to pretend he gives a **** about his mistake.
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vwiggin: In my opinion Harry's job isn't to be a figurehead, it's something imposed on him whether he liked it or not. He might be so accustomed to it right now as to agree with that himself, but I still think it's wrong to expect anything else from him than from any other teenager. And I also wonder if the tabloids actually cared about what he did or just wanted another "breaking news"...
Anyway, let's try this:
- dressing as Santa - Christian stuff; do you know how much damage was done in the name of Christianity to the American Indians?! - dressing as zombie - people must respect the dead, that's sooo disrespectful! - going naked - how can you possibly show up like that, have you no shame?! - dressing as Dracula - do you know how often Romania is associated with it and almost nothing else? - dressing as an American - sheesh, those guys who nuked Japan, went in Irak when it wasn't their war, etc. - dressing as a Roman - what about all those cultures that were quasi-lost because of their conquests? - dressing as an ape - people shouldn't degrade themselves by associating with lesser anymals!
I actually think they're all stupid reasons for not wearing a costume at a party, but I can also see at least one person being insulted by whatever costume one would choose...
And going to a party in a certain costume is certainly NOT equivalent to "treating at a New York fire station wearing a terrorist costume", in my opinion!
Let's try something else: how appropriate is to have a movie as "Hot Shots"?! We have scenes with Saddam Hussein, who many people consider one of the worst dictators ever. Can't I enjoy the movie because of that?!? If I dress in Saddam would it be more appropriate than dressing in Hitler? Less?
quote:Again, wearing a zombie outfit is not advocating zombie-hood. If I dress as a chainsaw murderer, I'm not advocating murdering people with a chainsaw.
As I already said, no real people have ever been killed by a zombie. And while chainsaw murderers are possible, they have been rare enough that if you dress as one to a costume party, the chances that someone else there will have had a loved one killed by a chainsaw is small enough that you'd probably be safe. The Nazis were on a rather larger scale than that. And because he is royalty, Prince Harry is on a larger scale than you are. The eyes of the world--including millions of people whose lives have been affected by the Holocaust, either living through it themselves or having lost family members in it--are constantly upon him. He's not just some random person going to some random costume party, and does not have the freedom that you or I have to make these mistakes. Whether anyone thinks that's fair or not--and I'm not saying it's fair, I'm only saying it's true--he should have taken that into consideration.
quote:However, I sincerely doubt that it was a deliberate "slap" in any way;
I didn't say it was deliberate. I doubt his thought processes in choosing his costume were, "Now how can I offend millions of people by going to this party? I've got it! I'll dress as a Nazi!" I doubt he intended to offend anyone at all. Such an offense doesn't have to be deliberate to still be offensive, however. As I've said numerous times, he should have taken his status and high visibility into consideration beforehand and realized that it wasn't an acceptable thing to do. That he didn't is not a sign that he was trying to offend. Only that he wasn't trying very hard not to.
quote:I find it less likely that people would be laughing if they lost a family member in the attacks. Your example is also doubly stupid because it presents a racist stereotype.
Yep. So a bunch of stupid kids thought dressing as a terrorist, trivializing the attacks and all the people who lost their lives in it, plus presenting a racist stereotype against Arabs to boot, was funny. That doesn't make it acceptable in the real world. No matter how loathsome your action, you can always find some lackwit who will find it funny. Put enough such lackwits into the same room, and you can give the illusion that consensus has decreed your action is funny. But that doesn't mean the real world would think so.
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quote: No matter how loathsome your action, you can always find some lackwit who will find it funny.
I find that a very sad thing to say... Whatever happened to "Always look at the bright side of life"?! I remember Ph. K. Dick said something like when you can't laugh anymore you're as good as dead... It's probably not a given for anyone to find something funny in a bad situation, but condemning someone because he finds it funny seems petty to me...
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quote:- going naked - how can you possibly show up like that, have you no shame?!
Ha! You don't know me very well do you.
quote:vwiggin: In my opinion Harry's job isn't to be a figurehead, it's something imposed on him whether he liked it or not. He might be so accustomed to it right now as to agree with that himself,
Just because he was born into the position doesn't mean his responsibility is any less real. It may be less fair, but not less real.
When Harry turned 18 he could have renounced his royal status and ask to be taken off the line of succession. He could also stop spending taxpayer's money and stop taking advantage of opportunities available only to members of the royal family. As far as I know he didn't do any of those things.
quote:but I still think it's wrong to expect anything else from him than from any other teenager.
He's almost 20 and probably received the finest education money can buy.
quote:Let's try something else: how appropriate is to have a movie as "Hot Shots"?! We have scenes with Saddam Hussein, who many people consider one of the worst dictators ever. Can't I enjoy the movie because of that?!? If I dress in Saddam would it be more appropriate than dressing in Hitler? Less?
I never saw Hot Shots, but for pure Nazi entertainment, watch The Producers and bask in the comedy genius of Hitler on Ice.
posted
I don't much care what happened to "Always look at the bright side of life", because I never followed such rose-colored mush. Perhaps I'm just stodgy, but I believe there are things that should not be taken lightly. The Holocaust is one of them.
As for your absurd list of "offensive" costumes a moment ago, you'll forgive me for dismissing it with a wave of the hand. If you lack the common sense to distinguish between dressing "as an American" and dressing "as a Nazi", then I suggest you avoid going to costume parties for awhile.
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quote: The royals are paid to be figureheads. Their job is to represent England in the best light possible.
Where are you getting this from? Is this more than just your personal view? Do you think that *they* would agree as to what their job is. I am not convinced that they would.
quote:That's a good point. Having every aspect of your life examined by the tabloids must be very taxing. This is why I would never fault the prince for doing average stupid teenage things. But to select a Nazi costume, put it on, and wear it in public? That cannot be excused as a thoughtless teenage act.
He didn't wear it in public. He wore it to a private party. It's quite a different thing.
quote:However, many people are asking why people care what anyone in the royal family does. The only function the royal family serves is to be cared about. The people of Britain pay them to be cared about. It seems silly to then turn around and blame the British people for caring.
Is it OK if I blame them for paying them to be cared about in the first place? I guess I'm too much of a yank to understand, but that seems like on of the silliest things in the world.
quote:After all, I'm from a generation that's most likely to run into Nazis as generic villains in computer games or adventure movies; they're practically synonymous with "interchangeable bad guy."
This is an excellent point. Somebody in the computer gaming industry said that there will allways be WWII games because Nazis make such good bad guys. Very much like zombies.
quote:Again I don't know of anyone who was killed by a zombie, but there a re still plenty of people who are the victims of the Nazi regime.
I personally know of as many people who have been killed by Nazis as zombies: none. It would not surprise me if it is the same for him.
quote:Would people stop feeling sorry for Prince Harry. He has no responsibilities. He gets to screw around for his entire life and can have whatever he wants.
This is exactly why I feel sorry for him.
quote:Just because he was born into the position doesn't mean his responsibility is any less real. It may be less fair, but not less real.
As I said before, I disagree with this. He has no real responsibilities.
posted
Look, Verily, I've said it in that same post, I don't equate those "reasons" with anything, some aren't reasons for not dressing for a party, some can't even be called "reasons" at all. BUT, I still can see people objecting to those outfits! And you haven't probably seen some of the older threads when Xaposert and others were talking about how Americans could be considered as terorists, or invaders. Strange as it might seem, I am in favor of the Irak war, and that it was time that someone got Saddam out of power. And I think he's a bad man and all. But I'd still laugh if I saw a friend of mine dressed in Saddam at a costume party.
quote: you'll forgive me for dismissing it with a wave of the hand
In all seriousness, no, I won't, unless you'll forgive me for "dismissing with a wave of the hand" the reason for which you think Harry's outfit wasn't suitable. Why deaths that happened a long time ago are less important than those that happened more recently?! How many killings it takes to be considered evil? How many "benefits" remove the "evil" tag? If Nazis won the war and afterward built a better society than this one due to the world being more united, what then? What if all the hate would have dissapeared in 10-15 generations? Would the war have been good or bad?!
And anyway I'm not in favor of considering entire people accountable for the wrongs done because of a dictatorship like Hitler's, Stalin's or Saddam's. I'm more enclined to Tolstoi view on history: a series of events that happened more because people aren't that concerned with the "big issues" or ready to take action to support what they think than viceversa.
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I think there are few things as offensive as dressing as a Nazi. If he wanted to be shocking, he could have gone as any number of things but a Nazi is one of the few things that is not acceptable. Treating him as a regular college student, this would be of very poor taste, treating him as a college student in the public eye it shows that he's merely out to shock, to prove that he is not going to toe anyone's line but his own. It's very stupid, but not surprising.
If my brother, son or something went to a party as a Nazi, I'd be absolutely furious. I hope he got a good a talking to (even as an adult, yes) because clearly he still only a kid.
EDIT: Going as a member of the KKK or a Suicide Bomber would be eqally poor choices. They're not funny whether you're famous or not.
posted
Is dressing as a Japanese one of them? Because, you know, they attacked the US at Pearl Harbour after all! Or it's not, because they didn't kill enough people, or because they killed not because they hated Americans, but just that they wanted to be able to conquer others without fearing that the Americans would intervene?!?
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quote: I personally know of as many people who have been killed by Nazis as zombies: none. It would not surprise me if it is the same for him.
But there are people who you "know" on just this forum who have been affected personally by Nazis. When you're the Prince every action you take is representative of your entire country and whether or not you feel sorry for him haveing such a responsibility does change the fact that he has it.
Corwin, being objectionable to a small group of people is not the same as being extremely offensive to a large group of people who have personally suffered at the hands of the Nazis. It would be equally objectionable for a Kuwaiti official to dress up as Saddam when his country had been invaded and occupied by that man. In consideration of those feelings we should also abstain from actions that are that offensive.
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Personally, I find it most disturbing that this stupid action by a clearly immature and thoughtless young man is considered not only to be news (headline news at that - at a time when thousands of people are injured, missing, homeless or dead), but that even on Hatrack (the last bastion of civilisation) it is thought to be worth three pages of discussion.
People, chill. The kid is not a Nazi. He should have known better, and he's hurt a lot of feelings. I am not in anyway demeaning the suffering of millions before and during the Second World War. However, he is not, in fact a Nazi, and I am much more concerned about the people who practice bigotry and cruelty in their daily lives who do not mark themselves by the wearing of a uniform.
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Some images merely have done "bad things". Some images actually represent hate, racism and cruelty; a Nazi is one of those.
EDIT: Bella, you are right. The only way to stop this kind of thing is to pretend it really isn't that big a deal. That, unfortunately, is something tabloids will never do.
quote: Corwin, being objectionable to a small group of people is not the same as being extremely offensive to a large group of people who have personally suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
Why? Because few is fewer than more? What action would the larger group of people entitled to in order to stop you from acting like that and it wouldn't be acceptable for the smaller group? I find things like patriotism and the likes being highly damaging, as they seem to "entitle" people to hate others just because some from that other country attacked yours 20, 100, 1000 years ago. As I said, I'm very skeptical about whether the "will of people" had much to say during history... Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Some things represent hate. Nazis are one of those things. They may not been any "worse" retrospectively in someone's view, but they do represent complete and utter hate in many places.
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The point is that offensiveness is based completely upon the perception of the person you're offending. So, something may be worse than Nazis but if no one knows what it is or cares about it then you're not offending anyone. It may be stupid, but it seems fair to consider it when you are choosing a costume to wear while mingling among the people you may be offending.
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quote:"The royals are paid to be figureheads. Their job is to represent England in the best light possible."
Where are you getting this from? Is this more than just your personal view? Do you think that *they* would agree as to what their job is. I am not convinced that they would.
If their job isn't to represent England as spokesperson/figurehead, then what is their job?
quote:The Queen is the United Kingdom's Head of State. As well as carrying out significant constitutional functions, The Queen also acts as a focus for national unity, presiding at ceremonial occasions, visiting local communities and representing Britain around the world.
quote:"Just because he was born into the position doesn't mean his responsibility is any less real. It may be less fair, but not less real."
As I said before, I disagree with this. He has no real responsibilities.
What did you think of my "family business" comparison? Harry is 20 and he continues to enjoy the benefits of being in the royal family. The family business is being figureheads and there are real responsibilities attached to that.
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Anyway, I remember reading this: New column: Pay me if you've heard this one before , and thinking "No, it's not THAT bad! We still have things to make fun of!" But I think that next time I'll go to a costume party I'll wear a Smablurkian outfit... Thanks, Chris!
I just remembered the "Patch Adams" movie. How much does it take to offend doctors? "Hospitals are serious places, you can't laugh in here!" How about teachers? Policemen? Politicians? "They're all such liars, cannot trust any of them, they're only interested in their own profit!" I've even seen people labeling "Tom & Jerry" as racist. Or what about the "Worms" games: do you think that the "Kamikaze" worms were funny? How can you say that when all those people died in those wars? Do you think playing computer games in which you use nuclear devices should be banned?
Why do I feel like we're going towards the Fahrenheit 451 society, where you can't talk about any real issue and where we have to watch only brainwashing non-shows? Can't we say the "three blonds on an island" joke because of the tsunamis?!
Look, if you want to feel offended by those things, it's your problem. Some people are more easily offended than others. I'll still laugh about them [edit for clarification: them = the situations / the costumes and not the people] as I'm in no way required to live with your view of the world - nor are you with mine.
quote:If their job isn't to represent England as spokesperson/figurehead, then what is their job?
They don't have jobs.
BTW, those quotes of yours only seem to apply to the monarch, which he isn't.
quote:What did you think of my "family business" comparison?
You made a good point with that, but if fails (for me) for 2 reasons. One, just because somebody says that it's my responsibility to take over the family buisness doesn't mean it is so. I can refuse to do that. Just because my father owns a buisness is no reason that I can't become an engineer if I want to. Career choice is not one of those things, IMO, that is inherited.
It also fails because he is not going to inherit the crown anyway.
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I find it very disturbing that so many thoughtful, kind people on this forum cannot seem to understand just how offensive dressing in a Nazi costume is to people who were affected by the Nazi regime, especially when it is done by a high profile person.
It is NOT just like dressing in any other costume that may be considered "poor taste."
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Ela, my life has been affected more or less by communism. Maybe not in an extremly dramatical way, but still I was born in a country under a comunist rule. Those rulers did their share of crimes in the almost 50 years that they ruled Romania. And what about the Hungarians some of which still want independence of certain territories IN THE HEART of Romania? What about Moldavia that has been taken by the Russians and nobody objected? I could give you tons of examples why I should be offended by someone dressing in a "Hungarian soldier", "Russian soldier", "red commie" or "Turk soldier" costume. But I choose not to be. It's THAT simple. All those, the Russians, the Turks, the Hungarians have done more bad to Romanians throughout history (and some still do) than the Nazis. What, should I hate the Americans too because they chose to let Eastern Europe under the influence of the Russians? The fact that Americans weren't "renamed" as Germans were renamed to Nazis during the second world war makes them unoffending? Or should I feel offended only by the "World War 2" American soldier uniform?!
quote: especially when it is done by a high profile person
The thing is that people like me or mph don't seem to consider that "high profile" thing to be very true or meaningful.
I remember a dialogue from one of the Dune books when a Jewish woman gains the ability to "see" her female ancestors. Her father tries to remind her of all the things that were done against the Jews. To that she replies that they too are a people that at one point were "the conquerers" and that even more attrocious things were done in their name. "History is written by the victorious."
So I say "forgive but don't forget". And have a laugh.
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"It is NOT just like dressing in any other costume that may be considered 'poor taste.'"
Well, no. It IS just like dressing in any other costume that resembles something that actually hurt somebody else in living memory. The difference is merely one of scale; there was nothing intrinsically evil about National Socialism that made it a whole different class of evil from all the other human evils out there.
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Sorry, Corwin, the holocaust is nothing to laugh at.
Tom, I have to respectfully disagree with the opinions you've expressed in this thread. I think dressing as a Nazi is worse than some of the other examples that have been mentioned as examples of "offensive" costumes.
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Ela, you're Jewish. Of course Nazis are going to seem worse.
I'd imagine dressing as a Grand Dragon would seem worse to a black man.
And, yeah, both costumes are pretty darn tacky. But that's all they are: universally tacky costumes.
It's not a newsworthy mistake. It's something tasteless that a kid decided to wear to a costume party. He might have gone as a tumor, but I'd imagine the tumor costume was already rented.
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Nazis: you can mock the attitude, Hitler's mustache looks kind of stupid, I laughed a lot at the Robin Williams show when he made fun of Nazis. Guess I'll have to disagree with you on that one.
Edit: And I just told you about other things that one might say I'd have the right to feel offended by. And I said I don't.
posted
Ela, I agree with you. I used to work with a guy who collected Nazi medals. He was creepy, and his hobby only made him creepier.
I don't think the brouhaha over Harry's decision is in line with his actual influence over the world, but it was unquestionably in poor taste. For him or anyone else.
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My mistake. "Job" is not the right word. How about what is their "function"?
When Prince Charles die, Harry will be the the next in line to the throne if his brother does not have any children. This makes Harry a potential Prince of Whales. The duties of that office includes:
quote:... supporting The Queen in her role as a focal point for national pride, unity and allegiance, bringing people together across all sections of society, representing stability and continuity, highlighting achievement, and emphasising the importance of service and the voluntary sector by encouragement and example....
....helping to ensure that views held by many people which otherwise might not be heard receive some exposure. His Royal Highness does this through letters to and meetings with Government Ministers and other people of influence, by giving speeches, writing articles and participating in television programmes. In doing so, he is always careful to avoid issues which are politically contentious.
Even before his father's death, in another few years Harry would be expected to act as a goodwill diplomat for England and the charity he represents wherever he travels. Those are important responsibilities which, as I have stated earlier, he was born into and has implicitly accepted when he did not renounce the title and benefits associated with his royal title.
quote:One, just because somebody says that it's my responsibility to take over the family buisness doesn't mean it is so. I can refuse to do that. Just because my father owns a buisness is no reason that I can't become an engineer if I want to. Career choice is not one of those things, IMO, that is inherited.
Good point. But Prince Harry has not refused the benefits of being a royal. In fact, he is the third richest teenager in England worth about £28 million (BBC). He got that money from his family, who in turn received that money partially because they are royalty.
I don't know if Prince Harry believes it is fair to inherit responsibilities by virtue of his birth, but his brother has stated that:
quote:"All these questions about do you want to be King? It's not a question of wanting to be, it's something I was born into and it's my duty," he said.
quote:My mistake. "Job" is not the right word. How about what is their "function"?
Mostly, to be a useless leech on England.
I guess what it boils down to is that I don't take all these responsibilies seriously. But thank you for pointing out that Prince Charles at least appears to.
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quote: Ela, you're Jewish. Of course Nazis are going to seem worse.
You're really brainstorming hard on this one aren't you, Tom? Maybe you should try to step back and figure out why Jews are offended by Nazis.
quote: I'd imagine dressing as a Grand Dragon would seem worse to a black man.
I think if Prince Harry were to do to do that he would deserve an equal condemnation as he is now. Wow, I came up with that even though I'm not Black, amazing!
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quote: Ela, you're Jewish. Of course Nazis are going to seem worse.
You're really brainstorming hard on this one aren't you, Tom? Maybe you should try to step back and figure out why Jews are offended by Nazis.
Actually, Tom's response felt sort of like a put-down to me, or maybe a putting me in my place, but I wasn't sure I wanted to mention it till I saw that nfl had.
[ January 14, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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The attitude I'm reading is that since Jews are biased as to whether Nazis are offensive, our opinions are clearly devalued by our clouded judgement. The intelligent way to look at the situation is to figure out why the group is offended and then determine if their justification is valid. Stepping back from being a Jew, I would say that six million murdered is significant justification. Similarly, when I figure out why Blacks are offended by the Confederate flag and KKK symbols, I say hundreds of years of slavery and then another century without civil rights is plenty justification.
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posted
I think Prince Harry had every right to dress up like a Nazi, or a Klansman, or whatever he likes.
I think he's an idiot for doing so.
I think a lot of other people think that as well.
I think they have every right to let him know this.
I think that Prince Charles has every right to yell at Prince Harry for his insensitivity, and to require Harry to examine why some people might consider such a costume choice offensive.
I don't demand that Harry avoid offending others, but I think he has to accept what happens as a result.
[ January 14, 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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quote: quote:I find it less likely that people would be laughing if they lost a family member in the attacks. Your example is also doubly stupid because it presents a racist stereotype.
Yep. So a bunch of stupid kids thought dressing as a terrorist, trivializing the attacks and all the people who lost their lives in it, plus presenting a racist stereotype against Arabs to boot, was funny. That doesn't make it acceptable in the real world. No matter how loathsome your action, you can always find some lackwit who will find it funny. Put enough such lackwits into the same room, and you can give the illusion that consensus has decreed your action is funny. But that doesn't mean the real world would think so.
Heh, whoa, kid. There's no question that Mike's costume was in poor taste, but that's exactly my point. That he dressed up as a terrorist exhibits exactly poor taste, not support of terrorism -- his costume inspires polarization of terrorists, not sympathy for them. Similarly, Harry's costume was to play as something evil, not to inspire a following for Hitler. Is this so difficult to follow?
If I dress as Caligula this Halloween, you can complain I'm trivializing the deaths of all those who died under his rule -- but that doesn't make it true. Dressing as Caligula implies neither agreement with nor endorsement of his policies or crimes, no matter how outraged you may be at my costume. All it means is that Caligula's enough of a caricatured villain to parody at a costume party, as, by now, is Hitler. Get over it -- or are you seriously trying to believe Harry's in ANY way condoning or supporting the Holocaust?
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I think this is a good summation of how I feel about the situation, from the article:
quote: Terry Burton, a spokesman for veterans of the Second World War, said the prince’s costume was an insult to soldiers who had faced German troops in battle and were still dealing with painful memories. “Maybe people think it’s funny to use inappropriate fancy dress like this, but I just find it disgusting,” he said.
posted
From the Slate summary of reaction to the event:
quote:An op-ed in the Guardian had a different take on the Royal blunder, suggesting that the swastika was not the most alarming thing about Harry's costume. Instead, the Guardian argued, we should be alarmed at Harry's determined pursuit of just the right Nazi uniform for the "Colonial and Native" theme.
quote:Harry's mistake was that he didn't do irony. He wore a costume but he didn't dress up. The truly frightening thing about this particular royal gaffe is not that the prince has a perverted sense of humour. It's when you look at his swaggering demeanour in the photographs in today's Sun that it hits you: Harry apparently thinks he looks damned fine in Nazi costume.
quote: Terry Burton, a spokesman for veterans of the Second World War, said the prince’s costume was an insult to soldiers who had faced German troops in battle and were still dealing with painful memories.
Unless you believe that dressing up like a British soldier at a costume party in Italy thrown by a bunch of 20-somethings is similarly insulting, I'd say this comment misses the mark.
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Tom, I've said something like that in my posts but apparently it hasn't been taken into account. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well, for one thing you're talking about a couple of different things.
Was Prince Harry's costume inappropriate?
Are people right to be offended by it?
The first topic is up for grabs, and that's what I think you're arguing.
But you seem to be trying to convince offended people why they shouldn't be offended, and that ain't gonna work.
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Well, I wonder if having the "right to be offended" by the costume beats the "right to wear" it... I think there's no "right to be offended", it's just a choice people make. I choose not to be offended by such things, others choose to be.
quote:or are you seriously trying to believe Harry's in ANY way condoning or supporting the Holocaust?
I don't think that's why some of the people here are so upset.
quote:"Of course, the Holocaust is representative of man's greatest evil and collapse of morality in human civilization," Rozett told CNN, "so when Prince Harry wears it ... it indicates the lessons of the Holocaust have not entered into his understanding or consciousness.
Robert Rozett, director of the library at Jerusalem's Holocaust Museum
posted
Not an either-or thing. Opinions differ, and likely always will.
In my post above, I stated that Harry could wear whatever costume he likes but he'll have to accept what happens as a result. I think that's true for any of the examples given so far.
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