quote:What have the stupid people ever done for me? It wasn't the bright kids who beat me up for being small and transferring in from a different school. Let 'em eat humiliation.
I think that's the attitude I'm talking about. If this is gifted, I think I was put in the right class.
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You can inherit the Earth for all I care. Just so long as I don't have to hold a conversation about football.
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Irami, do you think the "stupid" kids aren't going to notice that other students are smarter than they are? They don't need to be segregated to realize that they are not doing as well as the others. How will it help to have their noses rubbed in it every day when the smart kids can answer all the questions and they can't? Or should those kids play dumb to make everyone else feel all right? Because a lot of people on Hatrack have said that they did just that. Some of them did it to avoid being ostracized, but some did it out of a desire not to hurt others' feelings. That's not fair to them.
It's also been my observation that most students don't want other students to help them, at least not at the younger grades and especially not if it's an official set-up.
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quote:They don't need to be segregated to realize that they are not doing as well as the others. How will it help to have their noses rubbed in it every day when the smart kids can answer all the questions and they can't?
The elementary class I worked with did fine. Those kids just wanted help. I think it's a matter of the approach. And if the smart kids are rubbing noses, then isn't there a different problem, and maybe these "smart" kids lack more important skills. How is it different than fixing bullying problems on the playground?
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Irami, the opposite problem usually arises. Gifted kids like to help, in general, but they quickly become disillusioned by kids who won't pull their own weight because they can ride on the "smart kid"'s coattails.
I've nearly finished my GT license, and I think gifted education a very good thing. Here in Indiana, gifted education is considered a division of Special Education. The philosophies really aren't that different - it's all about meeting a child's intellectual, social, and emotional needs. A school following best practices for their G/T program will have a very clear selection procedure, well-trained staff, a program that clearly meets the needs of gifted children, and exit procedures.
Gifted children are different, in some very fundamental ways. Their brains work at top speed, and they are able to learn more quickly than most kids. Athletics are designed to find physically talented children, nurture them, and train them to use their gifts. Gifted programs do the same.
Also, a good gifted program really can help a child find his or her place in the world - where she can find her skills valued and learn what she needs to know to fully participate in life. A lot of times, gifted children end up stifling their special abilities, hiding their lights under bushels, and never pursuing (and achieving) the things they are capable of.
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Yes, smart kids sometimes lack important social skills. Which is why they need to be segregated--they aren't going to learn anything about socializing if no one will talk to them. Part of the problem is that those students tend to talk about things that interest them and which don't interest the average student. And part of the problem is that it's not cool to be smart.
The smart kids I knew growing up tried not to rub anyone's nose in it. But when they can answer questions no one else can, and when they ask questions that no one else understands or cares about, then other kids' feelings get hurt.
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quote:Gifted kids like to help, in general, but they quickly become disillusioned by kids who won't pull their own weight because they can ride on the "smart kid"'s coattails.
On some level, shouldn't these kids learn patience? If a 3rd grader is reading at 10th grade level, it seems more important to me that this kid spends his/her time working with the other kid reading at the 2nd grade level rather than the first kid trying to get to the 11th grade level. I don't understand how this isn't a learning experience. Maybe this is something that reasonable people can disagree upon, and I don't agree with your priorities.
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*nods* I admit that my childhood is strongly coloring my opinions--I did my best to fit in, short of denying my academic abilities, but I had a lot of trouble making friends until I got to high school and it was suddenly acceptable to be smart and to care about school. All the other students probably figured I had it easy, and I did--in class. But I am still behind my peers socially, and I have a lot of guilt about my abilities, because I know I did nothing to earn them. *shrugs*
I believe that you have very good intentions in your ideas, and your experiences probably tell you that you are right and I am wrong, just as mine tell me the opposite. I respect that, but I stand by my opinion that intelligent children have special needs and ought to be accomodated.
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Where we live (and where we used to live) in the last few years kindergarden has become all day, 5 days per week. I'm wondering what effect that will have in schools that pull kids out for "gifted" programs in grades 1-2. The standards have changed so greatly it's amazing. When my son was in K, they were happy if they learned the alphabet and letter sounds. My daughter is in an all day K program now, and it is expected that the children be reading halfway through the school year - and they are. The ripple effect on what is considered "gifted" in the early grades should be very interesting to watch in the next few years. Now 5 year olds that can read quite well and write coherant sentences are no big deal.
quote:On some level, shouldn't these kids learn patience? If a 3rd grader is reading at 10th grade level, it seems more important to me that this kid spends his/her time working with the other kid reading at the 2nd grade level rather than the first kid trying to get to the 11th grade level. I don't understand how this isn't a learning experience. Maybe this is something that reasonable people can disagree upon, and I don't agree with your priorities.
This is absolutely the wrong area (and the wrong age) to expect a kid to be patient. A third-grader is what, eight years old? Kids are, by nature, self-centered - and not in a bad way, in a healthy way. It's important to teach them morals, and sharing, and patience, and all that good stuff, but not in such a way that they are required to be patient for however many hundreds of hours they spend in school per month. That's just excessive - it's expecting too much. It's not that it's important for the kid to be able to read at an eleventh grade level - it's important for the kid to feel accomplished, and to feel as though they're learning, and achieving, not sitting around stagnating and being bored out of their wits.
Not that a gifted program is necessarily the answer to that. My elementary school didn't have a gifted program, so my teachers just let me bring books to school or choose books from the library and sit quietly and read whenever we were doing subjects that I was way ahead in, and that suited me just fine. I loved reading, and I'm sure I gained tremendously from that reading. I've always been, by nature, a bit lazy about homework and extra-work type activities, so I might very well have thought it unfair if I was given extra work.
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No, of course not. It's just confusing and kind of boring . Actually, I'm of the opinion that those who can understand football and memorize everything about all the players is perfectly capable of understanding calculus (in Hobbes's non-math style), which is based on relatively straightforward principles and requires no memorization if you don't actually use formulas.
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Why would someone being able to understand Calculus in the non dumbed down way exclude folks who enjoy football?
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It doesn't. I'm just pointing out that calculus really isn't any more complicated than football. I'm certainly not implying that people who like calculus don't like football or that football fans are dumb.
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I just hate seeing the stereotypes that anyone who likes or participates in sports is stupid. Or that anyone who is smart would never like or be good at a sport.
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No, I'm actually complaining that people who want to talk about sports but stop listening the moment I bring up math have no basis for complaint--anyone who can understand sports is obviously reasonably bright, smart enough to get at least the basics of science or math.
I promise, stop boring me with sports and I'll stop boring you with math Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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There's a big difference between learning patience and being a doormat. Gifted kids get used by their peers, or sometimes outright abused. Is it fair or right to tell a kid who reads classic literature at age 8 to be patient while his classmates practice phonics and read Dick and Jane? What about the kid who uses advanced math principles while his age-peers are working on simple addition? And when did it become the right thing to group kids by chronological age, anyway? It's not a great way to teach children.
One of the methods most advocated by gifted educators is differentiation. This means you take a basic concept and teach it at various levels. Sometimes you break the kids into small groups, so they can work with their mind-peers. Other times, you bring the groups together. It depends on what you want the kids to learn. I think you would very much like to see a clasroom in which differentiation is practiced.
It's hard, though, to teach it. You have to be darn good at teaching. It's not for the lazy teachers. But oh, so worth it.
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I took advanced social studies (history, geography, these things) classes my Freshman year in High School, along with advanced everything else (English, Math, Science, all that jazz), and hated it so took regular History the following year. I actually really loved that class, the teacher was great and in a subject like history you really get as much out as you put in, it doesn't matter where the other students are, but almost all the kids in the class strongly disliked me. This was highschool and I had enough self confidence and personal ... something that escapes me.... that I didn't get in anyway maltreated by the other students, but most of them spent their time mad at me, and I spent a significant portion of the class monopolizing the teachers time, getting into discussions with her about the material she was teaching, and the other kids had every right to be mad at me for that since it was like half the time they had class and half the time they had a discussion forums series: Hobbes and company.
It was kind of a combination of the lot of the problems of not having advanced classes, it made the class less applicable for other students, and should this have been early (elementary school) I'm sure I would've suffered through the other student's hands, even if that was just emotional seperation from them.
posted
I actually had a very painful experience in the special needs vs. gifted interaction just last year as an adult. I went to a reading volunteer program and we had a seminar to get us started, and in doing some exercises together, I was paired with a woman who it turns out wanted to help the program because she had dyslexia herself.
I don't remember exactly what was going on. I hadn't announced that I had finished college or that I was in linguistics, and I hadn't flashed around any weird terminology. But something I said made this lady really insecure and she got really angry at me. Things kind of deteriorated from there. I finished out the program for that year but haven't gone back to help. I doubt she has either.
She also got hired for a job I got passed over for last spring. Oh well. Life is sure funny.
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I got very little out of the gifted program. I was in a district with very high standards to begin with, and their idea of "GATE" (Gifted and Talented Education) was to pull us out of class for a couple of hours a week and give us extra work and projects to do, while still requiring us to do the regular work. Who wants more homework? I really could have cared less. The cirriculum was based on what adults thought gifted kids our age should be interested in, usually either boring stuff or stuff I'd learned years ago. If I was interested in something, I learned; I didn't need a teacher drilling me in extra work I didn't care about. In Jr. HS, there was a cool summer program in the arts for GATE kids because the only summer school offered was remedial; I liked that. The gifted program in HS was better than elementary school; it helped our interaction to be with kids who, say, read at the same speed as us. However, I'm glad not all classes were separated by ability, because I gained a by being paired with people who had a lot more trouble understanding than me, and discovered my aptitude for patience and teaching. Overall, I'd say that the most important thing to do for gifted children is to make sure they have access to information, books, and opportunities to explore the world, and to make sure they know what my mother taught me: "It's not how smart you are, it's how you treat others". Honestly, I have learned more from my (admittedly high-functioning, but still technically retarded) friend with Down Syndrome than from any gifted program I have ever been in. Enrichment is fine, as long as it doesn't detract from what really matters.
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We seem to be concentrating on extremely intelligent kids. While I understand that they have needs a regular school won't satisfy, I submit that average kids have such needs as well. Don't average kids need stimulation? Don't they deserve individual attention from the teacher? And what about, to quote Irami, "stupid" kids, who are extremely gifted in one area or other, but since they're not bright enough, won't qualify in a gifted program? I'd like to see a program where all of these are taken into account.
[ January 17, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Kama ]
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Just my two cents : When I was a kid, I would have liked to be in a "gifted program" but it does not exist here. I was constantly bored at school. If my parents hadn't been here to support me, I think I could have let my schoolwork down, because it was so very boring ! But I would have liked on the other end to be with "as talented as me" (which mean not at all) in sports classes, because I was so bad it was my nightmare.
[ January 17, 2005, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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quote: P.S. My problems, as far as I can tell, were a refusal to do homework or ask for help. My teachers both before gifted and in gifted would say "You are so smart, but I have to give you a C because you haven't done your homework."
I am both proud and jealous of my sister just older than me, who has a M.D. Ph.D. from U of Chicago. The main difference I can see between us all along is that she was willing to ask people for help.
To begin my tale, I am a Third and a middle child all in one. Born with two older brothers, and a younger sister who soon joined the world, I was the only one born with hearing and speech disabilities. All four of us were smart. All four of us were bright enough to be in "gifted programs". However, enviroment and lack of funds prevented us from taking the opportunities that were handed over. Most disappointing was out of the four, I was especially looked over due to my disabilities.
There are many many memories I have embedded in my mind of time and time again in which I took numerous "IQ" tests and passed with high-flying colors and yet due to whatever obstacle, I never partook in the gifted programs.
One I vividly remember is being tested for the TIP program in seventh grade. My mother, for whatever reasons, did not mail in my application acceptance letter. I asked her later that year about it and her answer was "I don't have the money". *face turns red and faint wisps of steam float above head*
I'm still peeved at all the missed opportunities I had in my life to show myself among my peers and my elders in the school system. However, I didn't give my mom much to prove that she was wrong to begin with. My teachers (the ones who actually took time to care that is) would try at the beginning of each school year to prove their claims that I was highly intelligent. They would show my mom test scores after test scores. They usually gave up by mid October and left my mom alone. That stopped in I got to high school cos by that time, my high school had too many people to look after and I unfortunately quietly slid thru the cracks.
I say this all of course not without my own doing. Once I got into the new school after my mom remarried when I was eight, the enviroment I knew went from friendly to hostile. The new teachers didn't understand my speech and I didn't have the patience nor the attention span to listen to what they taught.
My brothers made the grades as well as my sister did. Growing up, I was always being compared to my younger sister. "Why can't you make good grades like her?" The reason was cos I didn't turn in homework, I didn't care, I didn't want to work. My sister is not as easily intelligent as I am (no not a peacock statement), but I have to say this.. she is smarter than me cos she worked harder at being smarter than me. She put in the long hard hours of doing homework and projects to get the A's she got. I, on the other hand, didn't turn in assignments and in school, most of your grade is based on assignments and not tests. If it was the other way around, I would have always been an A student and not the C/D student I usually ended up being. I tested high but I had a "didn't care" attitude.
I would steal into my brothers' room at night and steal their library books so I could have something to read while at school the next day. I would spend most of my class time hiding a book under my desk. So if a teacher caught me, she would often think I was sleeping or something to that effect. Not many of them would appreciate that I was this little kid sitting at the desk reading Stephen King or Ray Bradbury (sorry, didn't find OSC until 8th grade )
Even when I was put into the excelerated reading class, I was only interested in the books we were required to read. I hated doing homework (it distracted me from my books lol) I hated the class discussions cos that meant everyone would have to hear my speech impediment. I just wanted to be left alone with my books.
That being said, no wonder I came into junior high and high school with a love of English and History. I hated worksheets. There was no creativity in cookie-cutter Xeroxed question and answers. I liked math cos I have a knack for remembering numbers and squences but not abstract math like Geometry and all those shape-based maths.
Even now, I am chastized at work and at college for being too long in answer. I have no interest in brevity. What takes a simple man five words would take me more than likely 20 to 50 words to describe or answer. It's not that I love to hear myself talk or whatever, it's just that.. I honestly think.. I think too much I have chronic insomnia.. have since I was a wee one, so what am I supposed to do with myself and my mind for 20 hours out of the day most days?
Ok.. I will stop now. I'm sure people are tired of my drivel for now. Geesh.. blah it's almost 7am and no one to talk to.. that's why you're here reading this now.. Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jenny G, you said everything I wanted to say, but more eloquently!
Peer tutoring is all well and good for some of the time. However, how much of an education is it for the gifted child if their entire day is spent helping their peers? Shouldn't they also be learning new things and developing new skills? That's what gifted programs are for.
Oh, and then there's everyone's education solution in the early 90s, groupwork. "Look, we'll put the kids into small groups with mixed levels of ability! It'll be great! They'll learn from each other while accomplishing a given task!" Horse puckey. What will happen (and what continues to happen even up into grad school, my friends) is that one person, maybe two people, will do all the work, while the rest sit around and watch.
Oh, and forgive me for a sec for going all Ayn Rand-y, but it is not the purpose of the "smart" kids to serve the "stupid" kids (I don't particularly like those terms). All kids come to school (or are forced to come to school) in order to learn. Socialization is an important skill, but as far as I can tell, forcing kids into interaction with either those that resent them or those that they resent doesn't help either. And there is DEFINITELY resentment--take it from someone who spent 5th, 6th, and part of 7th grade being called every name in the book, and pretty much mocked mercilessly by every single one of her so-called peers. People at that age look for a scapegoat--you know how people always say, "You know how there's that one kid that everyone picks on?"
quote:We seem to be concentrating on extremely intelligent kids. While I understand that they have needs a regular school won't satisfy, I submit that average kids have such needs as well.
quote: I'd like to see a program where all of these are taken into account.
Some people believe this program would be called "homeschool". I don't know from personal experience.
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First off, let me say that I didn't read everything in this thread as carefully as I might, so forgive me if I'm repeating something. It's just that something Jenny said surprised me. Jenny, if I have read you aright, you say that differentiation is part of teaching in gifted programmes and something you learned while working on your certification for that. To me, that suggests a huge gulf between American and British teacher training - as a student teacher training to work in mainstream state schools differentiation was right at the top of the priority list. Right now I'm in a school where kids are "banded" by ability (what Rivka called "tracking") but that's pretty rare - most classes in UK state schools are mixed ability, though students are more likely to be grouped by ability for maths, english, science and modern languages than for anything else. The norm is mixed ability teaching and differentiation and one of my main priorities is how to accomodate very bright young people within that. Even in my top sets there are one or two students that are far and away brighter than everyone else - and everyone else is smart, too! It's a real challenge as a teacher to make sure that those kids are being challenged, supported and encouraged while not singling them out. You'd think that the fact that I used to be one such student would help me with this, but actually it's more difficult than I thought it was when I was a student.
I hereby promise to read everything else in this thread that I haven't read - someone hold me to it!
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Your longer post made me want to shove your IQ up your nose.
Now, I know you. And I like you. I know you're a good guy. But your post just dripped with that superior sense of smug entitlement that causes people to want to beat up the "smart" kids. The I'm better than everyone else, you should cater to me, it's okay if I suck up all the academic resources available type of personality trait.
I am beginning to suspect that maybe I am just a dumb jock. Supposedly I'm a smart kid. *shrug* I was in a gifted program. *shrug* I hated it. I hated school in general, but that's not what I want to talk about.
But what Hobbes said has bugged me since last night. If I had been next to him, I would've said, "Who the hell do you think you are?"
So, if I pissed folks off or hurt them by saying that, I apologize now. But I couldn't figure out a soft way to say it, and I didn't want to leave it unsaid, because it captured some of the heart of that chasm between "smart" kids and the rest of us.
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quote:Oh, and then there's everyone's education solution in the early 90s, groupwork. "Look, we'll put the kids into small groups with mixed levels of ability! It'll be great! They'll learn from each other while accomplishing a given task!" Horse puckey. What will happen (and what continues to happen even up into grad school, my friends) is that one person, maybe two people, will do all the work, while the rest sit around and watch.
That has to do with administration, where the priority is on getting the project done rather than keeping everyone involved.
quote:Oh, and forgive me for a sec for going all Ayn Rand-y, but it is not the purpose of the "smart" kids to serve the "stupid" kids (I don't particularly like those terms).
I'm sure you don't like those terms, but that's the way it is.
quote:All kids come to school (or are forced to come to school) in order to learn. Socialization is an important skill, but as far as I can tell, forcing kids into interaction with either those that resent them or those that they resent doesn't help either.
The thing about good kids, really good kids as opposed to kids who merely do well on classwork, is that they like helping other kids.
quote:And there is DEFINITELY resentment--take it from someone who spent 5th, 6th, and part of 7th grade being called every name in the book, and pretty much mocked mercilessly by every single one of her so-called peers. People at that age look for a scapegoat--you know how people always say, "You know how there's that one kid that everyone picks on?"
We've all been called names, Megan. It doesn't mean we get to shut off our responsibility.
quote:And what about, to quote Irami, "stupid" kids, who are extremely gifted in one area or other, but since they're not bright enough, won't qualify in a gifted program?
Bless you, Kama, you can take out the "are extremely gifted in one area" because let's be honest, if I can't read, it doesn't matter how well I juggle or play spoons.
Amira,
quote:I hereby promise to read everything else in this thread that I haven't read - someone hold me to it!
You don't need anybody to hold you to it. You said you were going to do it, do it.
__________________________________________
For the record, the entire, "I shouldn't have to deal with people who call me names" speaks volumes about who we are as people.
posted
I was homeschooled. I didn't know I was "smart". I used to drive my mother crazy, because when people would ask me what my favorite subject was, I'd say History. (I liked it cause it was basically all reading.) She'd get upset and say but you are so "good" at math. But since I wasn't around other kids my age to compare to I didn't know how advanced I actually was. When I actually passed my mother in math was when I started realizing it. The other thing that made me realize it was that when I went to the community college there were all these adults that couldn't do what I did. I had mistakenly assumed my entire life that I was *normal* and everyone was capable of what I could do. Tutoring for 4 years taught me that while it can be taught to anyone with time and patience, clearly some people's brains just aren't as good at math as others.
I don't know if this was a good thing or a bad thing. I had a lot to learn socially when I went to college, even though I was with a bunch of National Merit Scholars in the dorms. However they were probably more patient with me than ordinary people would have been because they'd had to deal with similar struggles themselves. Now I do a reasonably decent job of blending in.
I don't really want to stick out. I do a bit because my personality is one that will always be a bit attention seeking. But now many of the people that know and like me for my personality don't realize how "smart" I am actually supposed to be. And that is fine with me.
quote: who are extremely gifted in one area or other, but since they're not bright enough, won't qualify in a gifted program?
Tnis is often the case, and was definately the case in my experience. For the gifted test I took, I had to qualify in four different areas: my parents' estimation of me, an interview, math and language.
One person I know was asked to take the test three times because of her exceptional ability in math but because she was not considered gifted in language was consistantly excluded from the program, which as I've said before, was almost all science and math anyway.
Also, the world is not divided into smart kids of stupid kids. There are plenty of middle-of-the-road children who perhaps have not been helped so consistantly by their parents, or merely are just "normal" kids. Where do they fit in outisde of the gifted/non-gifted divide?
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quote:Oh, and then there's everyone's education solution in the early 90s, groupwork. "Look, we'll put the kids into small groups with mixed levels of ability! It'll be great! They'll learn from each other while accomplishing a given task!" Horse puckey. What will happen (and what continues to happen even up into grad school, my friends) is that one person, maybe two people, will do all the work, while the rest sit around and watch.
This is so true. On several occasions, both my kids have ended up doing all or most of the work on a "group" project, because, they said, it was the only way to assure that it would be done right.
And, now that you mention it, something like that happened to me in a grad school group study, also, where I did all the work and everyone got credit.
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The thing is, if that's what happens, then the project was not "done right," because part of doing the project was the cross-teaching. It's probably more important than whatever material result was achieved. It's a question of priorities.
posted
I liked the way groupwork worked in my 8th grade (gifted) English and History classes-- each person had an individual part of the project, then also had a group part of the project. On the day you presented your project, you handed the teacher a slip of paper rating, from 1 to 4, the effort each person (including yourself) put into the group project. This counted for 20% of the grade, based on the total score each person gave you. So if you and another person did all the work and two people did none, you could give the people who did none 1s and yourself and the person who helped 4s. (If there was a major discrepancy, suppose the people who did no work gave everyone 4s and the other two gave 1s to them, the teacher called members of the group up individually and talked to them. If she determined that someone had given themselves more credit than they should have for group work or was unfairly giving someone else less credit than they deserved, they failed the project.)
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It is not the responsibility of an eight year old child to teach her peers. She isn't qualified to do it, and she shouldn't be doing it, she should be learning herself.
If the classroom she's in can't teach her anything, because it's all below her level, then we need to get her into a class where she can learn something.
Teaching her patience, and teaching her to love and help out her fellow man are all fine ideals, and it can be done, but it needn't be done merely or even primarily in the schools. We have families and churches to help teach moral character, and community responsibility.
In school, I want my children to learn. Not become the kid who the teacher foists all her difficult problem kids on. My children, both of the school age ones, are constantly put in this position. Emily has to sit at a table with three kids who are all trouble makers, they talk in class, they disrupt, and they cause the teacher problems. Why put Emily with them? Because she's quiet, obedient, and doesn't need as much attention from the teacher, she grasps concepts well. The teacher wants my daughter to be a calming influence on the boys.
Instead she gets picked on, and comes home frustrated and upset because of the names she's been called. To the point of coming home in tears sometimes.
How is this helping anyone, least of all Emily? She's learning that when you sit still and keep quiet and do what's expected, the teacher takes advantage of you. What a wonderful lessson to pass along to our talented, intelligent, well behaved children.
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quote: Bless you, Kama, you can take out the "are extremely gifted in one area" because let's be honest, if I can't read, it doesn't matter how well I juggle or play spoons.
Sure it does. What about a kid who may have a potential to become a great painter or musician, but won't if their talent is overlooked, just cause the kid isn't smart enough?
I'm not saying they shouldn't learn how to read. I'm saying if they are gifted in something else, this should be noticed and developed, along with their ability to read. And if the kid isn't bright enough, and their parents don't care, this will be neglected.
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quote:It is not the responsibility of an eight year old child to teach her peers. She isn't qualified to do it, and she shouldn't be doing it, she should be learning herself.
I peer are qualified and that the process of teaching is a worthwhile way of learning.
quote:Teaching her patience, and teaching her to love and help out her fellow man are all fine ideals, and it can be done, but it needn't be done merely or even primarily in the schools. We have families and churches to help teach moral character, and community responsibility.
Kids are in class five and six hours a day. Should we teach that thinking about responsibility is a task for evenings and weekends, and during the daytime, kids have to look out for number one. Character belongs in education, it belongs in family, and it belongs in church, and in no arena at the exclusion of the other.
quote:She's learning that when you sit still and keep quiet and do what's expected, the teacher takes advantage of you. What a wonderful lessson to pass along to our talented, intelligent, well behaved children.
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Kind of, but from my mouth, there are snide connotations. Fly out to Northern California and we can talk about it over dinner. You can take that anyway you'd like.
quote: She's learning that when you sit still and keep quiet and do what's expected, the teacher takes advantage of you. What a wonderful lessson to pass along to our talented, intelligent, well behaved children.
What is happening to Emily happened to me. I was very aware of it, and knew I was being "taken advantage of". However, at the same time, I felt not only like I was being put in a postition of trust, but also, because I was aware of the teacher's ideas behind this, I felt that in some ways, I had higher ground than the teacher.
It was the awareness factor: If you know what the adults are up to, you're one up on the adults.
quote: I think that's the attitude I'm talking about. If this is gifted, I think I was put in the right class.
Irami, I think you're cherry-picking quotes here to reinforce your pre-conceived opinions. I note that you've tended to reply only to those things which allow you to continue with your working hypothesis.
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posted
I think another point we are overlooking is that school is not structured the way it is in order to best teach a "normal" "average" child. It is structured the way it is to get the most out of the available teacher manpower. My home schooling remark was based on the idea that we all wish teachers would love each of their 25-40 students like a good parent loves their own children. But this is assumed not to be the case, generally.
Is it better for the teacher to love most of the students at the expense of a few who are either the slowest or the quickest? Or is it better for the teacher to give special attention to those who need it most?
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The thing is, I think that Belle's kids and Ela's kids are fine.
Take this quote:
quote:In school, I want my children to learn. Not become the kid who the teacher foists all her difficult problem kids on. My children, both of the school age ones, are constantly put in this position. Emily has to sit at a table with three kids who are all trouble makers, they talk in class, they disrupt, and they cause the teacher problems. Why put Emily with them? Because she's quiet, obedient, and doesn't need as much attention from the teacher, she grasps concepts well. The teacher wants my daughter to be a calming influence on the boys.
It sounds as though the teacher has the right idea. The difference we have is a difference of priorities.
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Unfortunately not every teacher is as committed and dedicated as Jenny. Not every teacher understands that gifted kids aren't just kids who need more work, they are kids that learn differently, and they benefit from being taught differently.
If we think that kids who are learning disabled deserve more individualized educational programs, why would we deny that to the gifted kids?
You really think a gifted eight year old is qualified to teach concepts to her peers? I personally think they are the last person that needs to be teaching it!
My daughter, at age 4, grasped the concepts of negative numbers. She asked me one day in the car, out of the blue, what would happen if she took five away from three. She said she knew there had to be an answer, but I'd never taughter her any number less than zero. She wanted to know what the names of the numbers were.
Now, is she really the best person in first grade, say 2 years later, to explain to a classmate how to add two plus two? She can't understand why they don't get it! She can't comprehend the complexities of differing learning styles, and that some people are visual or tactile learners, all she knows is she is being asked to explain a concept to someone else that she knows without explanation.
It's not that she wouldn't care, or wouldn't want to help (my Natalie is the most caring and empathic person I know, she deeply cares about others and has volunteered at her middle school to be a mentor to younger students) It's that she couldnt' help. When these gifted kids make such leaps in comprehension, they don't understand why others can't do that, why they need to take everything in steps. So asking them to explain the steps is asking them to do the impossible. It's like saying to someone who flew from New York to CA in three hours to sit down and write driving directions for somebody who's going there by car.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:When these gifted kids make such leaps in comprehension, they don't understand why others can't do that, why they need to take everything in steps. So asking them to explain the steps is asking them to do the impossible. It's like saying to someone who flew from New York to CA in three hours to sit down and write driving directions for somebody who's going there by car.
I agree. Except instead of, "So asking them to explain the steps is asking them to do the impossible," I'd say, asking them to explain the steps is asking them to think about the leaps they have taken, which is a exercise that properly belongs in education.
quote:It sounds as if the teacher has the right idea. The difference we have is a difference of priorities.
And a difference in what constitutes personal responsibility. You, apparantly, think it is the responsibility of one child to make up for the lack of responsbility in the other children.
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. Actually, I'm of the opinion that those who can understand football and memorize everything about all the players is perfectly capable of understanding calculus (in Hobbes's non-math style), which is based on relatively straightforward principles and requires no memorization if you don't actually use formulas.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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The reason was cos I didn't turn in homework, I didn't care, I didn't want to work. My sister is not as easily intelligent as I am (no not a peacock statement), but I have to say this.. she is smarter than me cos she worked harder at being smarter than me. She put in the long hard hours of doing homework and projects to get the A's she got. I, on the other hand, didn't turn in assignments and in school, most of your grade is based on assignments and not tests. If it was the other way around, I would have always been an A student and not the C/D student I usually ended up being. I tested high but I had a "didn't care" attitude.![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Glad you decided to delurk, Katie.
