quote:How many Conservatives have you actually talked with? Perhaps its from where I come from, but Jay is closer to the Conservatives I know than you are.
Well, let's see. I was Chair for University Affairs of the College Republicans, Managing editor of a magazine that got de-funded by UVA and re-funded when the National Review and Wall Street Journal came to its defense. The Editor in Chief at that time was Rich Lowrey. If you're a real conservative, you'll recognize his name as being the current Editor of the National Review. I founded and helped run a magazine that was de-funded by UVA, and this time we had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to win. The case is a precedent for Free Speech and Religious Establishment that was crucial in resolving the latest school vouchers case at SCOTUS in favor of allowing them. I owned a business for 11 years, and in the course of that time met hundreds of other business owners, all trying to get by and make a few good jobs for their employees. There were more than a few conservatives in that crowd. I've marched on the Capitol in pro-life rallies several times. I was threatened with a lawsuit by Planned Parenthood because of a speaker I brought to UVA. I worked on George Allen's campaign, but found him a little too moderate for my taste.
I'd be willing to compare this Conservative resume with most who aren't doing something political or press oriented full time.
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Most of the famous conservative think tanks repeatedly call for small government; for this very reason several are extremely upset with Bush (including for the tax cuts (edit: mainly the second round), which they view as, combined with his lack of fiscal restraint, resulting in larger government in the future to deal with the large debts that result (edit: and also because the accounting used for calculating their impact was intentionally misleading, which is anathema to traditional conservatism)).
As for "at most that simply means stay away from my pocketbook", I suggest you consider purchasing a thinking cap, or one which aids basic reading comprehension; Dagonee enumerated quite a number of things small government means that are far more than that.
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Here is a question then for Conservatives; Why aren't more Conservatives posting here and why don't you respond more than you do (I can count perhaps three Conservatives who are consistant posters)?
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If by Conservatives you mean people like you, I can only assume because other people keep asking them to provide evidence to support their statements and they aren't able to do so.
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Perhaps because not all posters enjoy the sort of, um, spirited debate that a thread with this sort of title would create? Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote: Small government is no longer part of the Conservative philosophy as I have heard it expressed
I find this *stunning.*
What kind of conservative bastion are you hanging out in these days? Are you going to at least try to support this ambitious claim at some point?
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quote: Why aren't more Conservatives posting here and why don't you respond more than you do (I can count perhaps three Conservatives who are consistant posters)?
1) You've scared them all away with your small government rant. 2) You've embarrassed them by mispelling "consistent." 3) They're all at a rally discussing this question, and you're missing it.
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Dagonee, your resume is pretty impressive; I'll give you that. But, I still believe you don't understand the changes in Conservative philosophy. I am not changing your beliefs, but pointing out that you don't hold the majority opinion anymore.
Again, it might be because of where I live (that would be the Intermountain-West) where there are more Jay's than there are Dagonees in temperments.
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quote:Are you going to at least try to support this ambitious claim at some point?
Magic Eight Ball says . . . "You must be joking."
Actually, he likely could find some evidence for it, sort of, at least by talking about who the people in power are that call themselves conservative and what their behaviors are. Excepting a decent number of Senators and a much smaller position of House members, those people currently calling themselves and their policies "conservative" are mostly neo-conservatives, which shares all of about a name with conservative philosophy (some of the conclusions are the same, but for pretty much wholly different reasons), or would better be termed career politicians, who I think by definition are required to not have a substantial political philosophy.
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I consider myself a moderate, and I really can't fathom what use it is to have more people of a given extreme viewpoint on a board. What would be nice is LESS extreme liberalism. Then we might actually get to have useful dicussions
The more extremists you cram in, the less sense anyone makes.
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I think you did miss the meeting Its not a direct statement as much as a focus on priorities.
Honestly, when was the last time you heard the "smaller government" rhetoric as a main part of Conservative ideals? Give me a quote by current leaders in the Conservative movement. You know, the ones that actually have power and influence?
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Of course, a lot of the problem comes from that a lot of the "conservative" voters have never been conservative in a political/philosophical sense, but are often "whoever smashes the most of those stinkin' liberals" or "the more religion in US politics, the better" types. Or then there are my favorites, the ones who punch a button for straight party line republican even though they don't have any idea who's running for most of the positions.
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quote:Honestly, when was the last time you heard the "smaller government" rhetoric as a main part of Conservative ideals? Give me a quote by current leaders in the Conservative movement. You know, the ones that actually have power and influence?
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I didn't realize my presence offended you, Geoff. [I want to put an emoticon here, but I'm not sure which one. Some strange combination of the wink and the stuck-out tongue.]
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fugu, as much as I disgree with you on everything; you actually hit the nail on the head. That way you stated that could have been less biased, but it is a good summary of current Conservitive ideals and positions.
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quote: The belief in God, Country, Family as it traditionally existed. Taxes should be small and government should protect the sanctity of the above three.
You know, Dog, between you and I calling ourselves moderates, I think we demonstrate the problem with different scales admirably .
I know we do not think the same way, or even close and yet we both say "I am a moderate".
EDIT: And twinky, I don't know how liberal you are but I have a suspicion that although I call myself a "moderate" and you call yourself an "extreme liberal" we line up more than ARNDog and I do. So basically, what I'm getting at is that names are... impractical.
quote:fugu, as much as I disgree with you on everything; you actually hit the nail on the head. That way you stated that could have been less biased, but it is a good summary of current Conservitive ideals and positions.
No, it's not. It's a good summary of people's misperceptions about current Conservative ideals and positions.
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fugu, you are sneering. And since there aren't any conservatives here you are embarassing the rest of us.
Icarus did start a thread naming both liberal and conservative trolls (who poisoned the well) but there were more conservative than liberal trolls in that inventory. But other than that, I haven't seen liberal trolls reigned in by other liberals.
I think the difficulty in defining liberal and conservative is the tendency for a writer to define "sane people" as their own leaning, be that liberal or conservative and "dangerous people" to be the other side. Thus the desire to categorize Dagonee as a moderate instead of a conservative.
Ultimately, conservatives shouldn't need to agitate since our guy is in office. P.S. That is to say, for someone to be obnoxious and conservative is seen as gloating. To be obnoxious and liberal is agitating for change.
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Lets play it this way....you made a claim, that it is not a part of the Conservative view these days...
So YOU be the first one to document your claims.
This isn't a liberal or conservative thing, it is a debate thing. Dag has pretty impressive credentials, and has proved repeatedly that he knows his stuff. I am a moderate, in that I think both extremes have good things to bring up, but even though I often disagree with Dagonee I respect his opinions.
Since you say Jay is your idol, pardon me if I don't automatically extend you the same courtesies.
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Dagonee, now find Conservative politicians and activists (especially grass roots) statmenents and beliefs.
quote:So YOU be the first one to document your claims.
How can I document a negative? I never said they repudiated the idea directly, but that it has simply not been part of the platform as much as lots of other priorities.
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Who are you talking to, Kwea? I may have missed something. I hope you don't mean me.
I guess you must mean Occasional. Jay did help me on my resume thread.
I think Jay and fugu are roughly equivalent in terms of not being trolls, but in being very spirited about their opinions. Going by thread titles at least. I think the whole evidence/linky thing can be good, but I've seen too many instances where the source of a link is dismissed as propaganda. I mean, this is the internet afterall.
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I'm serious. Would I have to post every single Presidential and Congressional position and the Republican platfom and say "see, its not in there?"
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I've got to disagree on some particulars, there, bunbun. Protecting the sanctity of God does not sound like limited government to me. Smaller taxes as a goal in and of itself does not sound like smaller government to me. Heck, protecting family as it traditionally existed does not sound like smaller government to me.
Yes, I am sneering. Dag seems to be sneering too, though he's being much more polite about it. Honestly, I'm pretty fed up with Occasional and his ilk, and feel like venting a bit. I'm not even feeling all that bad about it, as I still await even acknowledgement that he didn't respond to the point regarding the misuse of the press.
As I said in my comment, I'm calling Dag a moderate in an associative sense. From a philosophical point of view, I'm rather conservative (though dag and I have significantly different interpretations of what that means on certain issues). This should help illustrate what I meant about an associative sense.
And I should re-point out that I don't consider those things I listed "conservative". Those are the sorts of things that particularly un-thoughtful, religiously motivated, and/or angry people do, not conservative people. As far as I can tell, Occasional and Jay fall into at least the first two categories.
I've thought for a bit why I don't comment as much on "extreme liberals" (though I've certainly been known to rip into Tres, so its hardly ignoring). I think part of its that I do identify more with a conservative philosophical basis, and find perversions of it particularly annoying. Another part is probably that I often find the "extreme liberals" more . . . ineffectual. You don't really see threads like this for the liberals; there's less sympathy for a lot of the positions. Another part which I can't deny is that I do have a residual sense that liberals are often more motivated by good reasons than conservatives, though I deny this intellectually (feelings are hard to change); this is particularly amusing as, as noted, my philosophical basis is largely conservative.
And I don't rip into the polite extreme liberals like Syn because they're polite; same as I don't rip into polite people in general. Note: I consider part of politeness responding to people's points (or at least, not ignoring them and continuing to provoke them). Its a quirk of mine.
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So this allegedly non-small government is going to be paid for by the lower taxes you admit they do advocate? Are you saying you prefer deficit spending? Although some of those in power might
Again, Republican <> Conservative.
And frankly, I'm not going to take your assessment of what "Conservatives" believes over the institutions and people that have espoused COnservative ideals since Buckley.
And Adam, thank you for finding a McCain quote. I wanted to name him, but couldn't find anything quickly.
quote:twinky, I use that one all the time, only to have to change it when I realize ;p doesn't insert a smilie.
Yeah, and using both and feels like overkill. I dig. It's a tough one.
Teshi, my self-label is, somewhat reluctantly, "social democrat" (reluctantly because I'm not sure that social democracy can work, which leaves me wondering whether the socialism or the democracy is more important to me). Were I not so offended by the very existence of Stephen Harper I would never vote further right than the NDP. I plan to relish his pending implosion over the issue of same-sex marriage, and will celebrate his long-overdue demise by sipping green tea lattés with my card-carrying Marxist-Lenninist friends at a seance on the west coast of Vancouver Island, where we will channel the restless spirit of Ernesto 'Che' Guevara for guidance. Yes... this is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... "this land."
"I think we should call it 'your grave!'"
"Ahhh! Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
"Ah hahahahahah! Mine is an evil laugh!"
...
... ...
Er. Sorry. I got kind of carried away there. But I guess if you wanted to summarize me you could say that I'm a social democrat but am also a hypocrite. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: Yes, I am sneering. Dag seems to be sneering too, though he's being much more polite about it.
O_o Sneering is strictly a matter of manners, and has nothing to do with being right or wrong. When you use bald sarcasm against an opponent, that is sneering. Such as "my good friend". I think it weakens your argument.
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"my good friend" was actually more amused on my part than sarcasm, which I wasn't really trying for at all there. The sarcasm was more in things like the magic 8 ball post.
And yes, a lot of this is for my personal benefit, as I said, I've got a need to vent. And I do know that sneering is a matter of attitude, and I still think Dag's doing it, but in a more polite manner .
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Yeah, twinky, see I would think of voting NDP like you would voting Liberal... it would definately not be the end of the world. I'm very socially liberal. I also think Stephen Harper is excessively Conservative and wouldn't dream of voting for him.
Not that I can actually vote or anything .
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quote:p. 39: We believe that good government is based on a system of limited taxes and spending. Furthermore, we believe that the federal government should be limited and restricted to the functions mandated by the United States Constitution. The taxation system should not be used to redistribute wealth or fund ever-increasing entitlements and social programs. The taxation system should not be used to redistribute wealth or fund ever-increasing entitlements and social programs.
Many Democrats, however, believe the government has a right to claim the money earned by working Americans. They fight any attempt to return the balance of power from Washington to individual families and businesses.
quote:Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institute - a think tank - whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.
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I do agree with Occasional that 'liberals' on this forum sometimes do not give the conservatives the space and respect they deserve.
The way the board basically breaks down is that there are a huge number of social conservatives and/or moderates here, but not so many actual social liberals. Sometimes, I think I'm the only one above the age of 25 here who doesn't have some kind of social ideal that he thinks the government should inculcate the kids at school with.
I would say that there are probably a lot of 'compassionate conservatives' here, not so many hard-nosed fiscal conservatives, and quite a few fiscal liberals.
What I think differentiates most of the 'conservatives' on this board from other conservatives is that, due to the highly religius nature of the board, they are much less likely to support war as a solution, and if they do, it is in a very limited sense.
Keep in mind as well that this board is fairly unique on the net in that the numbers of men and women are about equal. This has a pretty significant influence on the social dynamic.
I would really like to see more conservatives post, but I hope they are more of the sort that post research from the Heritage foundation than they are that post Limbaugh's topic du jour.
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quote:The member organizations and columnists that we have chosen to feature on Townhall.com do not necessarily agree on every issue, yet that is why Townhall.com believes our community is of value. An interactive, open and honest debate of the issues within the conservative community will help us all in the fight against those who would sacrifice the individual and freedom for political gain and big government.
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And Occasional, I'm pleased that you are open about most conservatives not being opposed to a certain type of big government. It's refreshing to see that kind of honesty. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Fine, so you win on that score (as I said the Republicans are practically Conservative). Still, what about the list I provided? Or, do you not count them as a major part of the Conservative base?
I suppose you could say that there is a WAR over what Conservative means. However, it seems the "smaller government as priority" group is losing ground.
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Honestly, Dagonee, most(notice I said most) self-described conservatives are communitarians. No matter what those links might say, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the conservative ideal is bent towards pushing the individual to behave within the 'traditional' community.
quote:Fine, so you win on that score (as I said the Republicans are practically Conservative). Still, what about the list I provided? Or, do you not count them as a major part of the Conservative base?
I suppose you could say that there is a WAR over what Conservative means. However, it seems the "smaller government as priority" group is losing ground.
I'll let you go back and read my other posts quoting some of those before responding to that.
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you are embarassing the rest of us.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
feels like overkill. I dig. It's a tough one.![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
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