Today was Auschwitz's liberation's 60th anniversary - if I may call it so. This day, 60 years ago, was the day in which hundreds of thousands of Jews found themselves without anywhere to go.
I'm not saying that it would've been better had the Jews stayed under German control; but, I believe that both Britain and the United States (consequently, France) knew about the genocide.
Yes, my friends and foes, it was a genocide. My own ancestors are buried (if the term applies for a subsequent removal method following a 'visit' to the crematorium) there.
Clinton went up and down about the Albanians. Good! He should've! That was not quite genocide, but it was a racist Serbian behaviour in Kosovo. He came in late - but he went in. Where was Roosevelt 60 years before? Where was Churchill? A minute's silence in the 40s in England, or in the States for that matter, does not save millions of innocent lives. When the SS was releasing the hounds to rip people - Jews, Gypsies, blacks and homosexuals - where was the implementation of the "War that Will End Wars"?
Moreover, I came across the following site:
quote: To: The Government of Israel,
In the name of the people of the United States of America and all peace-loving people throughout the world, we, the members of the National Alliance and many other like-minded freedom loving individuals and organizations, issue to the government of Israel the following eighteen DEMANDS:
1. STOP using American military aid to commit unlawful acts of terrorism, murder, and genocide against Palestinians and others in the territories which Israel illegally occupies.
2. Obey United Nations resolution 242. End occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. End Israeli imperialism!
3. Obey United Nations resolution 194. Allow Palestinians to return to their homes: homes from which Israel drove them illegally over the past fifty-plus years.
4. Stop using torture as a matter of state policy.
5. Stop using assassination and murder as a matter of state policy.
6. Stop acts of terror which deprive Palestinians of their dignity, freedom, property, or lives without as much as the pretense of any due process of law.
7. Stop the institutionalized racism which treats non-Jews born in Israel as second-class citizens while denying them citizenship rights in their native land.
8. Allow true freedom of religion for people of all faiths in Israel.
9. Allow true freedom of speech and assembly for all people in Israel.
10. Stop building illegal settlements in the occupied territories.
11. Return all properties illegally seized in Jerusalem.
12. Recognize the existence of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
13. Allow an international peace-keeping force into Gaza and the West Bank to provide for the protection of innocent Palestinians against acts of Israeli state-sponsored terrorism.
14. Apologize to the people of Lebanon for the acts of war Israel has committed against them for over a quarter century.
15. Compensate the people and government of Lebanon for the results of Israel's acts of war.
16. Turn Ariel Sharon, the 'Butcher of Beirut', over to the World Court so that he may face justice for his war crimes and crimes against humanity.
17. Accept responsibility for Israeli acts of war against the United States of America during Israel's premeditated and unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty in international waters.
18. Accept responsibility for the fact that Israel's terrorist actions against the Palestinians and others are the direct cause of acts of terrorism against the United States!
The interests of the Jews do NOT outweigh the needs of the people of the world!
The freedom-loving people of the world are adamant that the Jewish state immediately cease its barbaric treatment of the people whose lands it occupies illegally!
Israel's continued genocidal actions leave us no alternative but to call for a total end to all American economic and military aid to Israel!
Failure to address these reasonable demands will be a tacit admission to the world that Israel is a terrorist state and that Jewish interests are bent on world domination and genocide against Palestinians, Muslims and people of European ancestry!
Signed on behalf of all humanity by:
The Men and Women of the National Alliance P.O. Box 90, Hillsboro, WV 24946, (304) 653-4600 Web site: www.natall.com or www.natvan.com
This is outrageous.
quote: To: The Government of Israel,
I'm sorry, but this pathetic addressing is so ridiculous, that I will not even bother to explain why those people, who seem so interested in Israeli politics, have simply no idea of what is truly going on around here. There are many, many people who are somewhat in favour of the "demands" posted later on.
quote: In the name of the people of the United States of America and all peace-loving people throughout the world,
And who gave you the right to represent the USA, furthermore, peace-loving people around the world? Who said that what Israel does is not in the name of peace?
quote: issue to the government of Israel the following eighteen DEMANDS:
So now you have the right to demand from Israel certain actions, I guess? May I say that since you have no official power, nor any justification in demanding action from Israel for certain deeds in the past - you are just being ostentatious, merely believing that your phrasing of a demand is not lacking all value (which it is)?
quote: 1. STOP using American military aid to commit unlawful acts of terrorism, murder, and genocide against Palestinians and others in the territories which Israel illegally occupies.
American military aid; is that the problem? Turn to the US government, if you have a complaint about the use of American weaponry.
quote: genocide
Genocide? You think that the Israeli government is committing genocide? Well, let me tell you something: my brother has recently served in the army, and some of the most sinister murderers ever to rise upon the face of the Earth were - and are - receiving better food that he was. True, Major R. did kill a girl: but he was taken to court. He is almost certainly going to be in prison for many, possible many dozens of years.
quote: territories which Israel illegally occupies.
Annexation is not the only legal form of occupation. The fact that the West Bank is dominated - and the major parts of it are under complete control of the Palestinians, does not reflect any act of illegal occupation. That area was conquered from Jordan during 1967, and Jordan never claimed it back. Now you come and say that every single bit of it belongs to the Palestinians. You may state your opinion, but where is Jordan in this whole story?
quote: 2. Obey United Nations resolution 242. End occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. End Israeli imperialism!
Gaza is to be evacuated during 2005. The West Bank is traditionally holy, and it has several legal settlements in it. Some of it is to be evacuated, and the rest will be dealt with later. As for the Golan Heights - EVER SINCE 1981 THEY WERE LEGALLY ANNEXED AS PART OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL!!!
quote: 3. Obey United Nations resolution 194. Allow Palestinians to return to their homes: homes from which Israel drove them illegally over the past fifty-plus years.
Hmmm... As someone who has actually been to the West Bank - I believe that a majority of those Palestinians have returned to their homes which were - by the way - abandoned in 1948 and 1967.
quote: drove them illegally
Absolutely wrong! And, if you would like to return it to the USA - what about the Sioux nation?
quote: 4. Stop using torture as a matter of state policy.
Torture was never a matter of state policy.
quote: 5. Stop using assassination and murder as a matter of state policy.
Neither assassination, nor murder, is neither a state policy nor a matter of them. Go on, tell me that Rehab'am Ze'evi - murdered some years ago by a Palestinian assassin - was a different case.
quote: 6. Stop acts of terror which deprive Palestinians of their dignity, freedom, property, or lives without as much as the pretense of any due process of law.
Stop acts of 'terror' which deprive Iraqis of their dignity, freedom, property, or lives without as much as the pretense of any due process of law.
quote: terror
It's terrorism that you wish to say, by the way.
quote: 7. Stop the institutionalized racism which treats non-Jews born in Israel as second-class citizens while denying them citizenship rights in their native land.
If you'd bother to read the Scroll of Independence, you would have noticed that this is primarily a Jewish nation; and it does not oppress other religions.
quote: institutionalized
The act which you claim to be true, is definitely not institutionalised. It is anything but it.
quote: 8. Allow true freedom of religion for people of all faiths in Israel.
It happens. I am a witness. Al Aq'sa Mosque, as well as the Dome of the Rock, is protected by soldiers.
quote: all faiths
Many shrines exist for polytheists in Israel; the same with Churches and Mosques.
quote: 9. Allow true freedom of speech and assembly for all people in Israel.
If Arafat himself was allowed to say racist things - and they were on TV, obviously, this is untrue.
quote: 10. Stop building illegal settlements in the occupied territories.
I guess evacuation does not count, then. Idiots!
quote: 11. Return all properties illegally seized in Jerusalem.
Return what from who(m?) to whom?
quote: 12. Recognize the existence of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
Recognise the existence of an independent Israeli state with Jerusalem as its capital. The American embassy is in Tel-Aviv.
quote: 13. Allow an international peace-keeping force into Gaza and the West Bank to provide for the protection of innocent Palestinians against acts of Israeli state-sponsored terrorism.
What about the Hammas attacking Israeli soldiers in Gaza? What about weaponry supplied from Egypt through tunnels?
quote: Israeli state-sponsored terrorism.
Now, this is pure crap. The Israeli state tries to quell revolts when they occur - which is not easy, let me tell you; she does not sponsor terrorism!
quote: 14. Apologize to the people of Lebanon for the acts of war Israel has committed against them for over a quarter century.
What about the Hezbollah?
Apologise to the people of Sioux for the acts of war the USA has committed against them for over a half century.
quote: 15. Compensate the people and government of Lebanon for the results of Israel's acts of war.
15. Compensate the people and government of Spain for the results of the United States' acts of war.
Besides, if you had any true idea of what the Lebanese did to schoolchildren in the 80s, and the infiltration of Lebanese terrorists, you would shut up.
quote: 16. Turn Ariel Sharon, the 'Butcher of Beirut', over to the World Court so that he may face justice for his war crimes and crimes against humanity.
That is one thing I do agree with, but that is not my point. Besides, show enough official, certified proof that he actually committed crimes that justify such action.
quote: 17. Accept responsibility for Israeli acts of war against the United States of America during Israel's premeditated and unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty in international waters.
What?!?!?!
quote: 18. Accept responsibility for the fact that Israel's terrorist actions against the Palestinians and others are the direct cause of acts of terrorism against the United States!
I think you swapped the words "Palestinian" and "Israeli", if you are going into prejudicial nonsense. And forgive me for not paraphrasing into something far less polite, and far ruder.
quote: Signed on behalf of all humanity by:
ALL humanity?!?!?! Who the hell do you think you are that you can apply your prejudicial racism for the entire human race?
quote: The interests of the Jews do NOT outweigh the needs of the people of the world!
The freedom-loving people of the world are adamant that the Jewish state immediately cease its barbaric treatment of the people whose lands it occupies illegally!
Israel's continued genocidal actions leave us no alternative but to call for a total end to all American economic and military aid to Israel!
Failure to address these reasonable demands will be a tacit admission to the world that Israel is a terrorist state and that Jewish interests are bent on world domination and genocide against Palestinians, Muslims and people of European ancestry!
This is so stupid, that I will not even bother to comment about it.
Jonathan Howard
[ January 29, 2005, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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"If you'd bother to read the Scroll of Independence, you would have noticed that this is primarily a Jewish nation; and it does not oppress other religions."
John, I'm afraid this statement kind of gives the lie to itself. Israel is indeed a fairly racist, pro-Jewish state. It's defined that way in its own Constitution.
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That alliance is not any kind of official or government related agency. I grew up with several Jewish friends, and there are regrets about some actions taken by the Israeli government. In college I worked for a native palestinian who wouldn't call the country "Israel". But while (native) Palestinians are an oppressed minority within Israel, Israel is an oppressed minority within the Middle east.
I recall a conference of Muslim nations that occured just before 9/11. Turkey had to withdraw from the conference because their allinace with the US would not allow them to assent to a platform that called "Zionism" racism. I like to recall this as I consider the overall picture of Israel/Palestine. It is a complex situation and while I understand your outrage, I think you will be best served to look with hope to your allies rather than with hatred at your enemies. But if you choose to focus on enemies, don't forget those who have done shameful things in the name of your cause. For me, this would include the authors of the letter you quote.
P.S. Believe it or not, I was writing while you posted Tom. Israel is exclusionary, but I think there is a difference between exclusionary and racist. Policies have often been executed in a racist way. Also, specialists I know in the area say that Israel did steal a lot of land from the Palestinians.
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At least it is ruled by a constitution and law, not corrupt dictators and madmen with guns.
And frankly, Jews have been and still are so persecuted all over the world that having one place in the world with a marked pro-jewish bias does not bother me at all. In fact, it is far too little.
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The Scroll of Independence, Tom, says that the nation of Israel is a Jewish nation, and a nation of the Jewish people - refugees of the Holocaust; and yet, it states that all religions are welcome within. This a nation that is meant for the Jews to have a nation to which they belong - yet it provides a warm space for all others. There is no obligement for anyone to convert. I have witnessed this with my eyes. I know many Reverends and a few Imams that are welcomed in Israel.
No opression, and yet this nation was formed as a safe haven for Jews. Is that too much a beaten-up people for 2000 years can possibly ask for? A nation which they try to defend? Freedom of religion is existent.
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quote: those who have done shameful things in the name of your cause.
Ben Gurion might've been very aggressive, and Z'abotinsky might've spread antagonism - none can be even compared to Hitler, or the KKK.
Although the ministers call each other Nazis, this does not imply that Israel is behaving like a fascist nation. More so a racist one.
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It depends on who you believe, Jonathan. I've heard stories of Palestinians in refugee camps being poisoned by the thousands. This was from a course I took overseas taught by a Palestinian. So definitely biased, but who is not? I think it is possible that while the overall cause of Israel is a necessary one, there may be individuals within the system who have committed evil acts.
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There are individual Americans and even organizations within America, that the American system allows to exist like the KKK that are evil and racist. It does not make America itself racist.
But saying that because someone is on your side they cannot do evil is no more right than saying that because someone is on the other side they must be worthy of death.
P.S. Yes, it means Israel is not special in this respect.
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There are always bad individuals, in every country, community, system, whatever. The fact is that Israel is the only example of an open, free society in that part of the world. It's doing the best it can under the circumstances (constant rocket attacks, suicide bombers, etc.). In fact, I am sometimes baffled by how lenient they are with criminals.
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1. Why are we discussing the validity of the statement produced by a white supremacist group?
2. Tom, you've shown your misunderstanding of Jews, Jewish motivations, and Israel before, but calling Israel "racist" has definitely crossed the line. Way over the line.
3. When mass murder is claimed by Palestinians against Jews it is always a good idea to verify that the claim is genuine. Al-Jezeera for example, still claims that there was a Jenin "massacre" which we now know to be hoax even after American media intitially reported it to be an atrocity.
Edit to add: Did anyone who posted in this thread even both to click on the links in John's post? They both link to sites that most educated Americans can tell are racist just from the visuals.
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These are the same people who think my parents committed an atrocity by having me. What they say is not really that important. Better to focus on views from groups a little more credible than this one.
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Sadly enough, there seem to be far more than just one site. And since the USA is much about freedom of speech, these Web sites are growing by the minute...
And what'll be left in 30 years? Then, the Holocaust will be a myth.
[ January 29, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Treblinka and so many more were places of horror, depravity and purest evil. Sixty years ago today, Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviets and shortly thereafter other sites were liberated by Allied troops.
It was genocide on a scale beyond comprehension.
However, I cannot abide someone pointing an accusing finger at the Americans and British for not stopping this. Too many American and British soldiers died on their way to the heart of Germany. They died trying to destroy the Third Reich and put an end to the Evil it did. They gave their lives, in part, for the people in those concentration camps.
Britain first had to secure its own defense. America had to gear up and gird for the new type of war that was being fought. Both countries' inability to match the Nazi war machine was shown in horrific losses on first encounters.
But, to have someone point an accusing finger at the Allies is wrong, just plain wrong. Especially in a world wherein Germans, Austrians, Romanians and Italians are not called on their actual, fervent participation in the genocide.
As someone once said, after the first concentration camp was liberated, there were no Nazis anywhere in Germany. People living right on the outskirts of the camps simply pled that they had no idea. And we let them off the hook.
Accuse the Germans... ask them why they did it, why they didn't stop it, why it didn't weigh on their hearts and souls to herd people into the gas chambers. Do NOT, however, ask the British, Americans, Canadians and ANZACS where they were while this was going on. They were carrying rifles and marching on Berlin.
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What I hold against the world was that they ignored what was happening in Germany from 1933 to 1939 and then they still didn't actually care what was happening. The US even waited until after Pearl Harbor. Even then stumbling upon concentration camps were a suprise. The collective governments pretended as if the information coming from the camps didn't exist. I don't blame the individual soldiers, but I do blame the people in charge for not taking action when it could have saved millions.
John, freedom of speech has always existed in the US. Just because groups can say what they want doesn't mean that people will listen. There are plenty of websites out there that claim that the Holocaust didn't happen, that doesn't mean we should give them any sense of legitimacy by pretending as if they are claims worthy of being refuted.
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quote:pointing an accusing finger at the Americans and British
I was not accusing. Rather asking why nothing was done. Do not tell me that 3 bombs on Buchenwald wouldn't have saven millions of men. Do not tell me the British did not know that. British borders were secure ever since Germany's Luftwaffe was routed by the RAF.
The USA raided Japan in 1938 (Roosevelt did it personally, to be more accurate). Japan was on the retreat ever since midway.
I do not accuse, rather wonder - what was the reason that at the time things were not done; there must be something I have not thought of, and would be interested in knowing.
quote: What I hold against the world was that they ignored what was happening in Germany from 1933 to 1939 and then they still didn't actually care what was happening.
England was holding France back. Just to show you the full list.
SAAR Annexation
Reinland Military Reinforcement
Anschluss
Sudetenland Annexation
Bohemia Annexation
Invasion of Slovakia
I never liked Chamberlain too much. The Versailles treaty was explicitly in shreds; and Chamberlain held back. As for the USA; WWI did slaughter lives. What I believe happened was that Roosevelt was eager to get into explicit warfare, and Congress refrained. Roosevelt then used his personal airforce against Japan, and Pearl Harbor was the Japanese reply. That is, according to the History Channel. JH
EDIT: Typo.
[ January 29, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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quote: Roosevelt then used his prsonal airforce against Japan, and Pearl Harbor was the Japanese reply.
Wait a second. I've never seen this before. What you mean to say is that the Japanese actually *reacted* to an American attack, they were not the initiators?!? Is there substantial evidence about this?
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I don't know what the hell he's talking about, unless he's thinking of the dolittle raid in 41'? However I must say that America did indeed provoke the Japanese. The oil and war material embargo on Japan forced the Japanese to make a responce they only had supposedly enough fuel for 6 months. Now true Japan did invade China but considering the state of world affairs why not? Pretty much any nation could grab territory and no one would care. In fact Japan was willing to pull out of China but requested 25 years to do it. After all a 3 million man army is REALLY hard to pull out of a continent, it would've been too shameful an act to give up meekly like they already did after the Sino-Russian war of 1904.
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BTW, I completely support Israel's right to exist and I personally would like to urge Israel to whatever is nessasary to achieve security.
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Yes, well, "security" has covered a great many sins in a great many countries. *raises eyebrow again and shakes head*
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Well seeing as how the world political system isn't going to change soon why does it matter? A nation only has the right to exist if it is willing to go all the way to defend itself. Otherwise they will be crushed by nations witha better grasp of how power in world affairs works. Power ultimatly comes from the barrel of a gun.
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I do not recall well the name of the show on the History Channel. But Roosevelt tried to form his own "FDR's-friends'-spy-agency". They had a few dozens of planes, as far as I know.
1938 was a year in which FDR raided Japan. Apparently, Pearl Harbor came as a response, although it seems to me like the attack was due to the Japanese need to reach what's now Indonesia (for oil).
The US Philippines territory was going to give the Japanese a hard time. So they needed to blast up Hawaii to secure the Philippines' invasion.
So I've heard.
The question is - how deep does the hatred really go between the split nation of Israel? Soccer fans screaming at the Arab team (last season's winners) that their players are homosexual? (Using the melody of one of the best Hebrew songs ever, they didn't come up with anything original.)
Or maybe the physical violence that happens now and again in the House of Representatives?
quote:However, I cannot abide someone pointing an accusing finger at the Americans and British for not stopping this.
The British were directly responsible for turning back many, many people in ships bound for what was then-Palestine, and the majority of those Jews perished in the camps. That's certainly not as terrible an offense as Germany's, but it is BECAUSE Britian is considered to be among the "good guys" in World War II that this deserves mention; they should be held to a higher standard. And similarly, America; immigration laws at that time were incredibly, incredibly strict, and many, many Jews desperately wanted to obtain Visas to leave to America while they still could, but the doors remained closed to them.
Because yes - for a short period of time, Jews were being allowed to leave - but there was almost no place for them to go.
And the fact that America ignored what was happening to the Jews in Germany for so many years before entering the war isn't exactly a point in its favor either.
Clearly, both America and Britain were by far among the best of the nations, but it is also undeniable that much more should have been done.
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quote: Clearly, both America and Britain were by far among the best of the nations, but it is also undeniable that much more should have been done.
Which shows that the world was pretty much in regress since 1806 (in the French Empire).
I forgot all about the ships... Germany sent those to every nation, and the Jews were left to perish in Europe. Escape wasn't easy at all, you're right - reader.
Well, look at the turn of the century: Dreyfuss (or however it isn't spelt).
JH
[ January 29, 2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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John, your sources for FDR's raid can't be any more credible than the websites that you've already linked to. Pearl Harbor was a suprise attack made hours before the Japanese ambassador delivered the declaration of war. The Doolittle raid was in retaliation for the attack itself and didn't even occur until April of 1942. The embargo was placed on Japan because they were invading countries without just cause. If Japan wasn't invading countries they wouldn't have needed the oil they did.
quote: Yes, well, "security" has covered a great many sins in a great many countries. *raises eyebrow again and shakes head*
Its unfair to judge Israel's actions to defend itself as wrong when America has no clue what its like to be constantly beseiged by suicide bombers. In a country this big, even 9/11 happened to somebody else and it was just one massive attack, not something that threatens us every day.
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quote: I do not recall well the name of the show on the History Channel. But Roosevelt tried to form his own "FDR's-friends'-spy-agency". They had a few dozens of planes, as far as I know.
I must admit I find this claim unlikely. If it's a well enough substantiated fact to have been on a show on the History Channel, I would expect it to be relatively easy to find on the internet... and I think you've been around here long enough, JH, to know that it's a good idea to do a search or two and try to find some proof if you're going to make contraversial claims.
And this one is really contraversial. And American president had a private airforce that attacked Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? I just think that with the amazingly well-read group of people here, one of us would have at least heard a rumor about this if it was true, or even under discussion.
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What, a man who's known today to be innocent, a loyal General in the French army, who was convicted and in the streets people screamed "Death to the Jews"?
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He was eventually pardoned, exonerated, and completed a successful career in the army that sent him to prison, rising to the rank of general. I would say the good guys won.
It also forced France to undergo a lot of self examination.
Edit to add: At the time of conviction he was a captain on the general staff, not a general.
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Oh well, I shouldn't trust that stuff I was told from reading a biography about Herzl.
The thing was, that it wasn't "death to the traitors!" that was the common scream in the streets of Paris, it was "death to the Jews!".
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I'm getting curious as to how you find such poorly researched books. Does living in Israel mean that there is a plethora of books on Jewish figures and that therefore many of them are bound to be full of blatant inaccuracies and unfounded conspiracies? I just find it hard to believe that I could find a legitimate biography on Herzl at Borders or Barnes and Noble that contains the stuff you've mentioned.
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Young Mr. Howard, I hate to be the one to say this but your grasp of history is remarkably feeble. I believe you may have taken a considerable amount of conjecture, conspiracy theory and cobbled-together nonsense and taken it for whole truth.
quote: Does living in Israel mean that there is a plethora of books on Jewish figures and that therefore many of them are bound to be full of blatant inaccuracies and unfounded conspiracies?
Maybe so... I mean, good books exist - but your chances of acquiring them are close to nil. I got several standard English books, such as Penguin-released stuff, but beyond that - if you're into a Jewish character or persona, it's either paying 300 NIS for a 1000 page book (such as Tolstoy, or something like that) that is imported from overseas, or a local book from a Jewish perspective. I get them with a slight reduction... My mother works in the English section of the biggest bookstore in Jerusalem (which is about the size of three small rooms. Nothing like European bookstores).
So what exactly happened to Dreyfuss?
JH
P.S. My knowledge in history is astounding compared to your average kid in Israel. And, sadly enough, I know more American geography and history than a kid from New Jersey who came only on year ago to Israel. He didn't even know what the thirteen stripes on his own American flag represented! I guess that's your average modern computer gamer at the age of 14-15?
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quote: Oh well, I shouldn't trust that stuff I was told from reading a biography about Herzl.
The thing was, that it wasn't "death to the traitors!" that was the common scream in the streets of Paris, it was "death to the Jews!".
So, are you sure you can trust that last part, as well? I will admit I have no idea, I'm just saying that if parts of the books are faulty, I wouldn't go around maintaining that other parts are fact without checking them against another source.
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Despite being commonly taught as part of the 20th Century, the Dreyfuss affair actually occurred at the end of the 19th Century. Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jonathan, I'd count that against you -- it means you ought to be able to check your statements about history -- at least some of the more outrageous ones -- against an in-house expert. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm sorry, but I would like you to point me the link between Auschwitz and the present accusations against Israël. The fact that your people has probably suffered more than any others does not mean that no one can think bad of Israël or of Israëlian politic. Or is there another link ?
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I did not say that, Anna. As a matter of fact, I curse the current political situation, and I dispise around 95% of the government.
What I say is that these demands were truly ostentatious. This is not just critique of the government's actions - this is truly a horrifying undercovered act of antisemitism.
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I'm going to be offensive, I know it, and I'm sorry. But I would know how exactly you can be against some of the actions of Israelian government without being called an antisemitic. I don't think you can. It's the same thing when you are punishing a kid with North-African type at school, he will call you a racist even if he deserves it. EDIT to add : I'm not saying that what you quoted wasn't offensive. I'm just saying that would it be less offensive, there would still be people to call it antisemitic.
[ January 28, 2005, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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It implies antisemitism. Don't take me for one of those self-pitying Jews who speak of none but Jewish troubles. I am not one of those.
Look at the logo - the white cross, or a variant of it. There's a link to "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands", and on their document "Who rules America", they seem to state primarily Jews.
The site is not officially antisemitic, but it implies it.
I saw no pictures of black men there; look at Web sites such as Microsoft or Adobe, and you get many blacks, many Asians, many whites (Caucasians)...
Implication. That's what it's all about.
JH
[ January 29, 2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
STOP USING OR REFERRING TO THE WEBSITES YOU LINKED TO!!!
It is openly anti-Semitic. It is a white supremacist group. They are the same as the KKK or any other group that only admits white Protestants. I understand that you may not have them in Israel, but please look them up in Wikipedia or someplace else. The National Alliance is like Nazis with less legitimacy. They are not a credible gage for facts or American opinion. There is no reason to write an essay on why the Holocaust really did happen after reading their website. There is no reason to write an essay on why being Jewish doesn't make you inferior. Do not contact them and try to persuade them of the errors in their ways.
Criticizing Israel's actions does not make you anti-Semitic. While anti-Semites are likely to condemn Israel because it is a Jewish state, criticism doesn't equal racism. I do believe however, that there is a growing trend in Europe and elsewhere, in that hatred of Israel leads to hatred of Jews. I also believe that there is still lingering anti-Semitism in Europe (witness the recent attempt by twenty members of the Russian Duma to ban all Jewish organizations and a spike in anti-Semitic motivated vandalisms and crimes in France) and that this anti-Semitism may indeed be the cause of a rush to judgement against Israel. Again, this does not mean that a European who speaks out against Israel is anti-Semitic. It is also entirely possible that Europe is simply more liberal than America or Israel (regarding foreign policy and security) and liberals tend to be more pro-Palestinian which often equates to being anti-Israel.
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quote: Criticizing Israel's actions does not make you anti-Semitic.
I know, unless the criticism of Israel is not just criticising Israeli ideology of defying the need for Israel's existance. If a Web site openly or subtly suggests that it repulses anything to have even been affiliated with the concept or ideology of Israel - particularly the Jewish segment of it - that is antisemitism; explicit or implied, it does not matter: it is still antisemitism.
[ January 29, 2005, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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