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Author Topic: Men are scum...
ElJay
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Not to mention -- What if she fingered the wrong guy? What if she's lying to you? What if she's not lying but was unclear in her refusal, and the guy honestly thought it was consentual? I'm not saying that excuses his behavior, but I think it's a mitigating factor... do you only break one kneecap then, instead of both, since it's a somewhat lesser crime?

Even in court with professional prosecution and defense, mistakes can be made. But you're absolutely positive you know what happened and won't make a mistake in serving out your punishment.

Yeah, I know, you trust your girlfriend, and you're sure she'd never lie to you, and you'd only do it if you were absolutely sure you got the right guy. But the thing is, I don't trust your girlfriend. I don't know her, I have no reason to trust her. And when you come swinging for my boyfriend or brother in revenge, you'll excuse me if I prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. Even if I believe there's a chance he did it, because you didn't give him the chance to prove his innocence.

[ February 16, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]

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skillery
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Trust and How We Think of Our Bodies

Before I get in more trouble, I'll agree that rapists are scum and should be punished.

This incident has me thinking about how we view our own bodies and other people's bodies. American society in general has been led by the media to view bodies as objects. We see people in print and on film who display their bodies and allow things to be done to their bodies for money. They seem to be less human and more like twisted Gumby dolls.

I don’t know if there is much that we can do at this point to reverse the dehumanizing effects caused by the media, and especially by pornography. I’m not saying that all rapists are motivated by media or by pornography, but I suspect that they are. And I’m thinking that in the rapist’s mind, and in many media junkies’ minds, women are viewed as objects to be used, abused, and brutalized.

Assuming that there is little that can be done to alter the minds of these violent criminals, I’m wondering if we need to alter our thinking about our own bodies. If others are viewing our bodies as objects, how valuable are those objects/bodies, and how much should we trust others with our bodies?

Would you leave a hundred dollar bill on your friend’s couch? Would you leave a rare and exotic pet that only you knew how to care for in the care of your friend? Would you loan your Lamborghini to your friend?

Maybe like the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings, there are some objects that are so valuable and potentially powerful that they should never be trusted to anyone.

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whiskysunrise
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ElJay I like what you have to say.
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Lalo
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quote:
Because I am addressing your hypothetical case involving your girlfriend, not the actual case involving Paul's friend. Yes, when you talk about Paul's friend you say he make it an offer once... but never when you're speaking of your own girlfriend do you say you would give her any choice in the matter whatsoever.
So your interpretation of my position is that I want rape victims offered the chance to take revenge on their rapists, because I'm a chauvinistic male, but I apparently won't offer my girlfriend the same choice, again because I'm a chauvinistic male?

Seriously?

No, LJ. My apologies if I haven't made this clear enough, but my position is that women deserve the chance for retribution after rape. If a court decides there's no way to prove it wasn't willing, and I trust the victim absolutely to be accurate and honest, I have very few moral qualms about giving a rapist what he deserves -- with the victim's permission. I realize I'm in the minority on this -- still, I doubt many people would stand by and watch their friends' or families' rapists walk away without any repurcussions for what is in many cases destroying the victim's life.

It's absolutely adorable, said the chauvinistic male, that the you want to make this a personal fight -- but it isn't. I'm not the bad guy here, this rapist is. Punishing this rapist with the victim's consent still doesn't make me the villain, no matter how loudly or often you proclaim that violence begets violence, so no harm should come to those who harm those incapable of defending themselves, and let's maybe kinda hope that someday he's careless with one of his victims. Who will she be, LJ? Your sister again? My girlfriend? Rapists destroy lives, even if some women manage to pull through relatively unscarred by the experience. How many would Paul's rapist need to destroy before you decide that the law won't stop him, so someone else should?

I do, however, owe your sister an apology. I misread one of her posts:

quote:
Lalo, I'm not telling someone else to suck it up and move on. I'm telling you that if my friend who offered to kill the guy who sexually assaulted me when I was 19 had done it I would have been furious with him. It would have been the end of our friendship and it would not have helped me in the least.

Nor am I suggesting Paul kill this rapist. I am suggesting he first show the world what this bastard's done and what he is, then later cripple his ability to rape again. Perhaps this would cost me your friendship -- but I'd rather you hate me and know you can't be hurt without crushing repurcussions than have your affection and know you're in constant pain and fear.

I read this as "if my friend who offered to kill the guy who sexually assaulted me when I was 19 had done [offered] it I would have been furious with him." Hence my promise to offer if it ever happens to a friend I trust, even if "this would cost me your friendship." I wasn't threatening to kill or cripple anyone against Dana's will.

I'm very aware of how inconsistent my position on sexual assault is with the rest of my politics. No, Scott, I don't think this is any standard of proof for all of society, but I'm willing to trust my judgement and that of those I trust absolutely if they tell me they've been raped -- and yes, I'm very aware of how flawed this position is when applied to anyone else.

I understand and agree with Dagonee's arguments that people use the same rationale to kill abortion doctors -- it's the same principle, but applied to a different crime. If I have no doubt that a man raped a person I trust to tell me the truth, then I have an unforgivable crime, certainty of guilt, and escape from legal repurcussions despite it. Yes, many people believe the same of abortion doctors -- again, I'm keenly aware of how little this policy should apply to any other crime, or any other person for that matter.

But I trust myself, if nobody else, to act on solid evidence that may not be accepted in court (a trustworthy friend's word against his, for example). I wouldn't accept this reasoning from anyone else, but I trust my own judgement. I have faith in very few people to speak truth, but if I'm certain those few are -- and I'm not asking you to accept it, LJ -- I have very little trouble with the idea of punishing a rapist. If a wife or daughter here were raped, I doubt any spouse or sibling or parent here would disagree with me. Maybe it is criminal, but I can hardly call it immoral.

Believe me, I would be arguing your argument for you if a) it were someone else suggesting vigilante justice or b) it were a different crime. I support the ACLU, I consider vigilante justice a crime and often a terrible one, and brutality goes against every belief I have -- except in this case. If a friend, a girlfriend, a wife, a daughter I trust or love is raped, and I trust her when she tells me she identified and refused him, then I have very little problem with finding the bastard who did this to her. Forgive me for bringing a personal example into this, but if Dana were willing to let you go after hers (and for the sake of consistency, say this is shortly after the crime) -- would you doubt her word? Would you let the bastard walk away if she were willing to let you go after him, even if you couldn't definitively prove to me that he were guilty?

If my mother or my girlfriend were raped, do you seriously expect me to watch the rapist walk away because we couldn't prove it was unwilling?

The puzzling quality of your argument, LJ, is that you seem to be willing to dismiss a rapist's crimes post-trial in hopes that he won't return for more and maybe the victim can move on with her life -- but you're aghast at the idea of anyone punishing a monster who attacks innocent women. Her-word-against-his arguments are useless in court, but if it came down between, as an example to make it personal, your mother and a sleazy co-worker, who do you think's telling the truth? Even if you couldn't prove it in court? Would you seriously just turn away and wait to hear news of his next victim -- or don't, because the next victim's a fifteen year old girl too ashamed to tell anyone? Or a mother who doesn't want her kids to know? Or a sister who promises to continue servicing him so long as he doesn't go after her baby sister?

No, I don't have many problems with going after rapists if they manage to evade the law, despite the inconsistencies this position may have with everything I believe in. The ends justify the means. The crime justifies the ends. Nothing justifies the crime.

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AntiCool
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quote:
But I trust myself, if nobody else, to act on solid evidence that may not be accepted in court (a trustworthy friend's word against his, for example). I wouldn't accept this reasoning from anyone else, but I trust my own judgement.
And because we don't trust your judgment, your actions would rightly be called murder, and you would deserve to be punished accordingly.

quote:
Believe me, I would be arguing your argument for you if a) it were someone else suggesting vigilante justice
Why do you feel that you are qualified to mete out vigilante justice, but the rest of us aren't? I fail to see how this is anything but the height of arrogance.

quote:
If my mother or my girlfriend were raped, do you seriously expect me to watch the rapist walk away because we couldn't prove it was unwilling?
I expect you to not break the law.

quote:
The ends justify the means.
And thus I see the foundation of our disagreement. I consider this to be an evil idea.
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Paul Goldner
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Skillery, your argument pre-supposes that rape is more common now then it was prior to widespread visual media.
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punwit
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My sister was abducted at gunpoint from the convenience store where she worked. She was then raped and thankfully, released. At the time I was filled with anger, dread and a feeling of helplessness. I wanted justice and I would call my sister asking for updates on the search for the perp, but it was obvious from her reticence that she was more focused on putting the episode behind her.

I truly can't imagine that I would have been willing to kill her attacker if he would have been identified, charged but not convicted. I'm not sure how I would have felt. I'd have no problem using extreme violence if I had happened upon the crime but to take retribution in my own hands after the fact just seems wrong. While I am not a religious person I do hope there is some sort of accounting in the end.

My experience dictates that calls for revenge are a symptom of one's personal feelings of helplessness and should be viewed as selfishly motivated. I had to let matters drop because I wasn't helping Shelly, I was prolonging her agony. The only thing I was truly capable of was letting her know that I loved her and that I was there if she needed me.

[ February 16, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: punwit ]

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ElJay
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Lalo, I don't have the time to fully respond to you right now, and I'm not sure when I'm going to. I just want you to know that I read your response, and that I feel you are seriously mischaracterizing some things I said and drawing invalid interpretations from others.

If I get the time to write a considered response before the thread dies I will. I'm mostly writing this so everyone reading, including but not limited to you, knows that I disagree with the conclusions you've drawn. This is the henna party weekend, and I've got stuff after work every night this week, so if the thread dies or substaintially changes before I have time to revisit it I'm not going to drag it back up just to make my points. I don't really expect to change your mind, and I doubt anyone else agrees with you, so it wouldn't be worth it.

But if I have time, I'll happily sit here and address every last one of your points. I'm sure you're looking forward to it.

Added: And thank you, whiskeysunrise.

[ February 16, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]

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skillery
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Paul G., there is no way of knowing whether rape is more common now than in the past because rape usually goes unreported. So my assumption that rape is more common nowadays doesn't hold up well.

I think maybe rape in the past was primarily perpetrated by family members on helpless little girls who could have done nothing to prevent it.

I think rape by friends and acquaintances is a more recent development because it is now acceptable for single women to live away from their parents, whereas in the past, the girl wouldn’t have left her parents until she got married in her late teens.

So who is doing the raping may have shifted. And the causes and motivations may have shifted as well. I think the media’s portrayal of women as sex objects has probably increased the incidence of rape. I think this shift in causes and motivations requires a new, enhanced set of defenses.

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Icarus
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Wow, ElJay. I can't think of how many times I have had strong feelings in reaction to a thread, not had the time or energy to post it then, and not wanted to drag the thread back up later. I'm always frustrated, though, that not dragging the thread back up means not getting to register my position . . .

I may have to make use of this technique . . . I think I will call it "giving an ElJay Warning"!

[Big Grin]

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mackillian
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Rape isn't about sex. It's about power.
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skillery
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Mack, what you said is also what my wife learned when she took classes, preparing to serve as a rape crisis counselor.

I'm thinking that motivation is shifting. With the object-ification of women in the media, the more recent view of women as a venue/object for releasing sexual tension is adding to the power motivation.

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ElJay
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Icarus: [Razz]

I'm flattered. [Wink]

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Paul Goldner
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Do you have ANY support for this idea, skillery? Or is it purely conjecture? Because, as far as I can tell, the rape rate has been going down for the last decade or so, as media objectification of women has been become more widespread.
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skillery
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And one of the culprits, they decided, was pornography

...at least in the cases of Arthur Bishop and Gary Gilmore.

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AntiCool
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quote:
Rape isn't about sex. It's about power.
Although it is widely touted as a truism, I am not convinced this is actually true.

It might be, but I haven't seen anything to actually support this oft-made assertion.

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Space Opera
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punwit, I'm so glad that you were able to be there for your sister. I think your story is a really moving example of the fact that what we may want is not always what a rape victim needs.

I can honestly understand Lalo's intial feelings, just not his entire argument. If someone ever molested my son or daughter, you bet my first instinct would be to find the bastard and use a gun for the first time in my life - especially if the court system failed us. But, I truly feel that when we make a decision we not only make one for ourselves, but for those around us as well. It certainly wouldn't do my children any good to have Mommy in jail, and it wouldn't do my community good to promote vigilante justice.

But, I understand the urge. [Frown]

space opera

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jeniwren
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Anti-cool, I agree with mac. It's about power. But not all rapists are equally hungry for the power to dominate.

A guy who's okay with date rape isn't necessarily so hungry for power he's willing to take the same risks as a guy who will rape at knife point.

Two cases: 1: A much older man is attracted to a 15 year old. He cajoles her into sex. He's not overtly threatening and doesn't hurt her physically, but he still dominates his will over hers. 2: A guy invites his female friend out for a weekend of fun after she's laid off her job abruptly. She is clear before they leave: no sex. She gives him no indication that the rules have changed. Despite her repeated No's, he forces sex on her that night, though she doesn't fight very hard, afraid he might hurt her.

In both cases, I think if you'd asked the guys, they would have said it was just sex. But it is about power too, since they use their dominant strength to take what they want.

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AntiCool
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In that first case, the statement "Rape isn't about sex. It's about power" is not accurate.

[ February 16, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]

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beverly
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quote:
Despite her repeated No's, he forces sex on her that night, though she doesn't fight very hard, afraid he might hurt her.
Do you have all your gender pronouns as you wish them to be in this sentance?
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Lady Jane
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I think the pronouns are correct - the final adjectival phrase is modifying the subject of the previous clause.

[ February 16, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]

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beverly
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OK, I got it now. [Smile]
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jeniwren
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Anticool, actually, I'd argue that it was more so about power in the first case than the second. At least in the second, she was an adult capable of making a much better decision. In the first, it was like shooting ducks in a barrel. Most fifteen year olds lack the maturity, experience and self confidence to sufficiently resist an adult's will. There are very, very good reasons to keep statutory rape laws. It is far, far more about power than sexual gratification.

edit: and yeah, Katie had it right.

[ February 16, 2005, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]

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AntiCool
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quote:
It is far, far more about power than sexual gratification.
Even if this is true, saying that "It's not about sex" is still not accurate.
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skillery
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Does knowing that there are sex addicts out there who view people as things change our behavior in public? Before it might have been enough to avoid dark places when alone. But now even our trusted friends may have been pre-conditioned to overreact to the slightest stimulus.
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mothertree
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I parked a couple blocks west of a job interview so I wouldn't have to pay a meter, and while nothing happened to me, as I noted the surroundings I realized that I was doing something at least as thoughtless as getting drunk at a party.

The trouble I have with the violent retaliation tactic is that it turns your rapist into a victim without him ever feeling remorse. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I'm definitely of the opinion that answering violence with violence doesn't solve much in the long run.

Also, Lalo, I'm a little concerned about the degree of posessiveness your post about your girlfriend contained. But, then, I just watched a show on educational TV about a teen abuse prevention group.

I'm sure rape rates have gone down in the last 10 years because the population is graying. The question is what is the rate of projected rapes among people 18-35 compared with 10 and 20 etc. years ago?

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jeniwren
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Anti-cool, as the cases cited were not hypothetical, you're right and wrong. Sex drive and power hunger were pretty much synonymous for Case Guy 1. He was about as alpha male as you can get. I don't think either desire went without the other.
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beverly
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Thinking about situation #1, what if he is attracted to her because she is attractive and he tries for sex because he thinks he can get it more easily out of someone naive? I would think that was more about sex than power, power being a means to getting the sex. Of course, I'm not a guy, so I can only guess as to the motivations of this hypothetical male.
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ElJay
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Well what do you know, I found some time...

quote:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because I am addressing your hypothetical case involving your girlfriend, not the actual case involving Paul's friend. Yes, when you talk about Paul's friend you say he make it an offer once... but never when you're speaking of your own girlfriend do you say you would give her any choice in the matter whatsoever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So your interpretation of my position is that I want rape victims offered the chance to take revenge on their rapists, because I'm a chauvinistic male, but I apparently won't offer my girlfriend the same choice, again because I'm a chauvinistic male?

I don't see how you got what you characterize as my interpretation of your position from what you quoted, but to clarify: While I don't think you will find a rape victim who will take you up on your offer, I'm fine with you making the offer and don't think that makes you a chauvinistic male. I think if you make the decision for the woman, whether it's your girlfriend or anyone else, that makes you a chauvinistic male.

quote:

Seriously?
No, LJ. My apologies if I haven't made this clear enough, but my position is that women deserve the chance for retribution after rape. If a court decides there's no way to prove it wasn't willing, and I trust the victim absolutely to be accurate and honest, I have very few moral qualms about giving a rapist what he deserves -- with the victim's permission.

You still have not given me a straight answer to if you would honor your girlfriends wishes about if she wanted you to carry out retribution or not. You still have not even said if you'd ask her opinion. You railed against me in your last message for not giving you a straight answer to what you thought was your main point and I thought was drek, so I'll ask again, very clearly, in two parts:

1. If your girlfriend was raped tomorrow and told you who did it, would you ask her if she wanted you to take retribution?

2. If she said no, would you do it anyway?

quote:

still, I doubt many people would stand by and watch their friends' or families' rapists walk away without any repurcussions for what is in many cases destroying the victim's life.

Not one single person other than you has said they would take violent retribution in this situation, though some have said their initial gut reaction would be to want to. So while we probably don't have a representative sample of anything yet, it's hard to see how you can "doubt many would stand by and watch." Also, I have never said I don't want repercussions. I have many times, here and elsewhere, been an advocate of urging women to go to the police and do everything they can do get their attacker punished to the fullest extent of the law. There are other activities I find appropriate as well, but we'll touch on that later.

In other words no, I don't want to see my rapist walk away. Nor do I want to see my boyfriend try to kill him. I would hope for a middle ground, but if the choice is between those two extremes then yes, I take the former.

quote:

It's absolutely adorable, said the chauvinistic male, that the you want to make this a personal fight -- but it isn't.

Personal? I haven't come close to getting personal yet. All the examples I've used are ones you brought up. Here's the thing -- I think you are using an intentionally inflammatory posting style in an attempt to inflame an emotional response. In my opinion, it just makes you look juvenile, but I suppose it might be working on others.

quote:

I'm not the bad guy here, this rapist is. Punishing this rapist with the victim's consent still doesn't make me the villain,

No it doesn't make you the bad guy or the villain. It does, however, make you a bad guy and a villain.

quote:

no matter how loudly or often you proclaim that violence begets violence, so no harm should come to those who harm those incapable of defending themselves,

I don't believe I proclaimed that violence begets violence. I believe I opined it. You can go back and check if you like, you'll find that reading carefully really does make a difference. I'm pretty sure that you'll try to accuse me of playing with semantics next. If you didn't try it already with my last point. But I think it's an important difference. In that paragraph I was not trying to say that what you say you would do is wrong -- although obviously I believe that it is. I was trying to explain to you why I believe as I do. I thought perhaps the seeing reasoning behind my feelings would help you understand me better and maybe temper your reaction, so you could at least see the opposing viewpoint. Instead you try to twist my words and take them out of context. It's cute when you think everything's so black and white.

quote:

and let's maybe kinda hope that someday he's careless with one of his victims.

Twisting the night away.... Let's look at what I said, shall we?

quote:

And if you stop short of killing the person, his reaction when he recovers is probably going to be violence. Maybe he figures out who you are and hunts you down and takes it out on you. Maybe he goes out an assaults more women. However it happens, there will be more violence. Yes, maybe if you don't do it, he continues attacking other women. And maybe the next one will fight back and stop him, or maybe he'll get caught and dealt with by the justice system. You can't know.

Emphasis added. I think that's pretty obviously a string of hypotheticals. Are you honestly suggesting that I was saying we should hope that he's careless with his next victim as the best way of stopping a rapist? That's pretty far-fetched.

quote:

Who will she be, LJ? Your sister again? My girlfriend?

Goodness, Lalo, if you're going to get personal about this why didn't you just say me?

quote:

Rapists destroy lives, even if some women manage to pull through relatively unscarred by the experience. How many would Paul's rapist need to destroy before you decide that the law won't stop him, so someone else should?

Ooooooh, I'm gonna play semantics again. If Paul was raped, he certainly didn't tell us about it. But to answer your question... before I would endorse vigilante justice I would try to change the laws, I would lobby to change the people enforcing them, I would press to hold the police department accountable, and I would raise holy hell anywhere and everywhere I thought might help. I would organize a grassroots movement dedicated to sexual assault awareness and tough sentencing, or join one that was already in existence and light a fire under there asses to step things up. I would do everything within the bounds of the law to get the rapist brought to justice.

I would not go out and kill him myself until the country descends into anarchy. That's if the rapes me, that's if he rapes you, that's if he rapes both of us, your grandmother, and my dog. And I would not endorse you killing him, either.

quote:

I wouldn't accept this reasoning from anyone else, but I trust my own judgement.

Others have pointed out the ludicrousness and hypocrisy of this statement, so I don't think I need to. I just hope you understand when I decide that I'm not accepting anyone else's reasoning on if they are fit to bear children or not and turn you in for forceable sterilization. Unfortunately, since I don't believe in vigilantism, it'll have to wait until after I'm the supreme ruler of the world, but at least you have something to look forward to.

quote:

If a wife or daughter here were raped, I doubt any spouse or sibling or parent here would disagree with me.

Do I need to point out again that so far everyone on the bleeding thread has disagreed with you? I bet that's included a few spouses, siblings, and/or parents.

quote:

Believe me, I would be arguing your argument for you if a) it were someone else suggesting vigilante justice or b) it were a different crime. I support the ACLU, I consider vigilante justice a crime and often a terrible one, and brutality goes against every belief I have -- except in this case.

Oh! Then that makes it all better, that it's only in this case! Forget I said anything. You just go right ahead running around killing rapists. Do you read what you type? Do you think it sounds credible in the slightest? And I do mean slightest?

quote:

Forgive me for bringing a personal example into this, but if Dana were willing to let you go after hers (and for the sake of consistency, say this is shortly after the crime) -- would you doubt her word? Would you let the bastard walk away if she were willing to let you go after him, even if you couldn't definitively prove to me that he were guilty?

If Dana told me she wanted me to go after her rapist I would urge her to get counseling. And this isn't just because I know my sister and know she would never suggest such a thing in her right mind... if anyone I loved suggested such a thing that would be my response.

Before you call me a coward, there are things I would go to jail for. Before you call me cold, if I could make it so I was the one attacked instead of her I would in a heartbeat, without hesitation. (I have been sexually attacked, incidentally, although not as severely.)

quote:

The puzzling quality of your argument, LJ, is that you seem to be willing to dismiss a rapist's crimes post-trial

Did I imply that? I certainly didn't say it. Or is it just that you think "not killing" equals "dismissing?"

quote:

in hopes that he won't return for more and maybe the victim can move on with her life -- but you're aghast at the idea of anyone punishing a monster who attacks innocent women.

Oh, I'm not aghast at the idea of anyone punishing him. I'd be quite happy if the court and penal system did it.

quote:

Her-word-against-his arguments are useless in court, but if it came down between, as an example to make it personal, your mother and a sleazy co-worker, who do you think's telling the truth? Even if you couldn't prove it in court? Would you seriously just turn away and wait to hear news of his next victim

Who would I believe? My mother, of course. Whether the courts did or not. But how many examples to you need to give, how many ways do you need to ask it, before you understand that if we cannot get him convicted, while I would still consider him guilty as sin, I WOULD NOT THEN GO KILL HIM OR WANT ANYONE ELSE TO? You're just saying the same thing over and over. I get your point. I understand what you think you would do, and why. If you want to convince anyone about it, however, you're going to have to do a lot better than these little scare tactics you keep trying to use.

I will undoubtably get slammed for playing the age card, but Lalo, I fully expect that if you archieve this thread and look back at it in 10 years your position will have mellowed and you'll be more than a bit abashed at what you've said. And I'm talking the substance of your opinions. In 10 years I'll probably regret having wasted my time on this, but I bet my feelings won't have changed. They haven't in the last 10 on this particular issue.

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quidscribis
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What Eljay said. Cuz she did it so much better than I would have had the patience for. [Hail]
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gnixing
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quote:
If Paul was raped, he certainly didn't tell us about it.
[ROFL]
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AntiCool
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LJ is on fire tonight!

*high fives LJ*

quote:
I will undoubtably get slammed for playing the age card, but Lalo, I fully expect that if you archieve this thread and look back at it in 10 years your position will have mellowed and you'll be more than a bit abashed at what you've said. And I'm talking the substance of your opinions. In 10 years I'll probably regret having wasted my time on this, but I bet my feelings won't have changed. They haven't in the last 10 on this particular issue.
This really struck a chord with me. I remember saying things very similar to what Lalo has said today. I was about Lalo's age, and it was 12 years ago. There is truth to what she just said.
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beverly
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That reminds me of that "Red Blue" cartoon about Why You Should Not Get a Tattoo: Because You Are An Idiot.

Think back 10 years. You were an idiot, right? Anything you would have tattooed on your body back then you would be ashamed to have now, right? Well, guess what! That's how you will feel 10 years from now.

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punwit
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Eljay, you are truly an elegant and eloquent gem. [Hail]
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Lalo
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quote:
quote:
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Seriously?
No, LJ. My apologies if I haven't made this clear enough, but my position is that women deserve the chance for retribution after rape. If a court decides there's no way to prove it wasn't willing, and I trust the victim absolutely to be accurate and honest, I have very few moral qualms about giving a rapist what he deserves -- with the victim's permission.
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You still have not given me a straight answer to if you would honor your girlfriends wishes about if she wanted you to carry out retribution or not. You still have not even said if you'd ask her opinion. You railed against me in your last message for not giving you a straight answer to what you thought was your main point and I thought was drek, so I'll ask again, very clearly, in two parts:

1. If your girlfriend was raped tomorrow and told you who did it, would you ask her if she wanted you to take retribution?

2. If she said no, would you do it anyway?

So... Are you serious, or just trying to razz me?

If the quote you cited to respond to weren't enough of an answer -- no, LJ. If my girlfriend, or any friend, were opposed to me taking action, I'd probably argue against it. But I'm not making a move without her consent, and I've never suggested Paul do such. You have my sincere apologies if I've let you believe I'd ever endorse action against the victim's will -- isn't this why I want action taken against the rapist in the first place?

quote:
quote:
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Who will she be, LJ? Your sister again? My girlfriend?
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Goodness, Lalo, if you're going to get personal about this why didn't you just say me?

Whoa, kid. I know I'd rather suffer through something than watch a loved one do it -- I assume you, and most decent people, are the same way. There are crimes I'd tolerate done to my own body I'd kill for (with the victim's permission) if done to someone I love.

quote:
quote:
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I wouldn't accept this reasoning from anyone else, but I trust my own judgement.
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Others have pointed out the ludicrousness and hypocrisy of this statement, so I don't think I need to. I just hope you understand when I decide that I'm not accepting anyone else's reasoning on if they are fit to bear children or not and turn you in for forceable sterilization. Unfortunately, since I don't believe in vigilantism, it'll have to wait until after I'm the supreme ruler of the world, but at least you have something to look forward to.

Others? Pookie, I do believe I was the first to point out how flawed my reasoning is.

And, wow. Forceable sterilization? At least let me be the cute little felon I so desperately want to be before you decide I need to be stopped from ever reproducing.

I'm hitting a nerve with you, but I'm not sure why. In my world, it's decent -- even honorable -- if a friend takes revenge on a rapist. I dislike vigilante justice as much or more than you do, but I know and approve that if I beat or rape my girlfriend, her brother's (and probably many others) coming after me. I still have serious trouble believing you'd insist he undergo forceable sterilization because he's defending his sister, or me my girlfriend, or Paul his friend, from a true monster.

I'd also like to point out I am not suggesting, nor have I suggested, that Paul kill this rapist. I do endorse taking revenge on the rapist so he knows a) his last victim won't be a future one, and b) rape has consequences, even if you manage to get her alone and in circumstances which prevents the law from being able to conclusively prove the rape wasn't willing.

I'm a feminist, LJ -- I don't know how or why you tried to turn this into a big-bad-man-making-her-decisions-for-her. For yet further clarification, no, I don't endorse action without the victim's approval. Of all the flaws in vigilante justice to point out, you tack up one I disagree with? Attack the stupidity of I'll-do-what-the-law-doesn't, attack the inconsistency of this particular belief with the rest of my philosophy -- but feminism against a feminist?

Again, you seem to be taking this intensely personally, and I'm not sure why. I've never attacked you or Dana (and I've apologized for misunderstanding Dana when I promised to offer myself to her, even if doing so would cost me her friendship), nor do I consider what I'm endorsing that outrageous -- or at least not offensive to you. You can point out how ludicrous vigilante justice is and the danger it poses to a civilized society, but Dag's done so without getting as furiously disdainful as you have. Why? If I offend -- now that I hope it's clear to you that I endorse no action against or without the victim's consent -- I hope you'll accept my apologies for whatever slight I've done you.

If I look back in ten years, I may -- god forbid -- have a daughter, assuming you haven't decided to forceably sterilize me. If she were raped or molested, I seriously doubt my position would have changed.

I understand that you're opposed to vigilante justice, LJ -- so am I. But I don't consider it immoral in instances of certain sexual assault. Note that I'm not endorsing murder, no matter how tempted I would be if the victim were especially dear to me. But I have very few qualms about beating a rapist or child molester. If you disagree, your position's duly noted -- I respectfully disagree with your belief that if the court system can't stop the rapist, we'll need to wait until an unknown number of future victims later and hope they press charges and maybe they'll succeed where the first victim couldn't. Hopefully life never presents either of us with this choice ever again.

Erthang clear, or do you have any further issue with my stance aside from a distaste for vigilante justice?

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ElJay
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Just quickly, Lalo, as as fun as this is all my time pressures still apply --

Thank you for answering my question. [Smile] Yes, I was being serious, every time you've talked about checking with the woman first it's been in widesweeping generalities, and everytime you've gone to the specific about your situation you've seemed to be dodging that point.

You still hit the rhetoric so much, though...

quote:
But I'm not making a move without her consent, and I've never suggested Paul do such.
The thing is, you have suggested it. I've already quoted it to you once, I'm not going to bother again because you seem to do a great job of ignoring the quoted parts that prove you wrong. You've said that if Paul thinks asking his friend will make her feel too guilty he should just go ahead and do it without ever consulting her.

quote:
I'm hitting a nerve with you, but I'm not sure why.
You're not, really. This is a discussion board. I'm discussing the issue. I happen to be passionate and enthusiastic about discussing things I feel strongly about. I feel strongly about this issue, not particularly about your take on it personally.

And I'll point out that I've been responding to you the entire time in the same tone you set. You posted passionately, you made it personal, and you acted dismissively of me all prior to me doing any such thing. Which makes me wonder why you try so hard to call me on it.

I picked my tone for two reasons in this, Lalo... one, you were obviously passionate about it and when people responded to you with calm, reasoned answers you basically say you can't believe they're all such a bunch of namby-pambies. So I thought letting my passion show through might move you more than sticking in an analytical mode. And two, I was pretty sure you could take it without running off crying that "ElJay's being mean to me." I will fully admit that I have not been as respectful and polite on this thread, when addressing you, as I normally am. I don't think I've gone too far out of line, and I certainly don't think I've been anymore dismissive of you than you've been of me. But when the climate on this board is such that their are regularly threads discussing if we're nice enough to each other or not, I normally tread lightly.

Regardless, no, you haven't done anything to me or my sister, and I'm not sitting here with a bleeding heart over how you feel on this issue, and there's no mysterious slight I'm taking out on you. It's a rhetorical device. Get over it.

quote:
I still have serious trouble believing you'd insist he undergo forceable sterilization because he's defending his sister, or me my girlfriend, or Paul his friend, from a true monster.
Oh, I wasn't implying I'd have you sterilized because of wanting to beat up a rapist. Sorry if it seemed that way, completely unrelated. Just looking for an example that could be considered as invasive and out-of-line as what you were suggesting without being the same.

quote:
but feminism against a feminist?

It takes more than labeling yourself a feminist to make you one. Your words here lean too closely to considering women as possessions as far as I'm concerned, but that could just be a matter of style. I will say, however, that as unpleasant a topic as it is I hope you'll talk to your girlfriend about her feelings on this matter, so if, God forbid, you should ever find yourself in the situation you'll know in advance how she feels about it. If she's as vehemantly against the idea as I am, if you would wait and bring it up shortly after an actual rape you would just make things worse for you and probably ruin any chances of your relationship making it through the aftermath as well.

About my possessions comment - obviously everyone's different, and there are cultural differences here to take into account as well. My last boyfriend was Mexican, and there were some things I had to deal with when walking in his world with him that in my world I would consider horribly offensive, and reason to stop dating someone. But we talked about them before they ever came up, and he told me things that would happen that he knew I would find offensive and how he would respond to them, and how I should respond to them. It was an interesting experience.

(As an example, so this doesn't look so horribly vauge... he told me that when we went dancing at latino clubs if we were taking a break between songs and someone else wanted to dance with me, they would come up and ask him if they could dance with me, and he would answer them. I just sat there flabbergasted... "What? You two sit there and discuss the matter and I get no say in it?" "Well, no, if it was someone I was okay with you dancing with I'd look over and see if you wanted to dance with him, and you would nod or shake your head, and then I'd tell him yes or no." So knowing in advance I could accept it as a cultural difference. If I hadn't been warned and it had happened, I would have been really pissed at the idea that I can't answer for myself, much less make my own decisions. My but I've tangeted... I'm just saying that the things I hear from you as possessive and restricting might not be intended that way, which would increase the chances of us taking past each other.

Hope you're still around in 10 years, doll, so we can revisit the issue.

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AntiCool
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quote:
In my world, it's decent -- even honorable -- if a friend takes revenge on a rapist. I dislike vigilante justice as much or more than you do,
I cannot fathom how you can believe these two things at the same time. It seems obvious to me that you don't have as much problem with it as LJ or myself do.

quote:
I understand that you're opposed to vigilante justice, LJ -- so am I. But I don't consider it immoral in instances of certain sexual assault. Note that I'm not endorsing murder
You're just saying that it is what you would do, that it is the decent, honorable thing to do. While you may not be actively advocating it, you certainly are endorsing it.
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TheHumanTarget
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I think there are cases where vigilante justice is legitmate and valid. I mean, let's just assume that someone rapes, mutilates, and murders your child. Then the accused person gets off on a technicality, when their guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but a stupid bureaucratic error lets them walk. In this situation, I think that's it's not only legitmate, but very proper. <---- I agree that it's a longshot, but it is possible...
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