posted
After putting up a torture advocate as his new attorney general, he's trying to set up a man who keeps a hand grenade on his desk, who's known for not being particularly diplomatic, and who has said publicly that the United Nations is a useless, figurehead body, as our representative to the U.N.
quote:"The (UN) Secretariat building in New York has 38 stories. If it lost 10 stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference," Bolton said in a 1994 panel discussion sponsored by the World Federalist Association.
Senator Barbara Boxer, a California Democrat and member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, cited this quote at the 2001 confirmation hearing for Bolton for his current post as evidence that he was outside the US mainstream.
I don't like Bush's choice here-- but I have to grin at Boxer's assertion that Bolton's attitude is outside the US mainstream.
Quite the contrary-- Bolton's antipathy toward the UN is exactly mainstream.
As for the hand grenade-- big deal. It's a model, anyway, and probably a paperweight. I'm more concerned about his attitude of dismissiveness. I wonder if this move signals a penchant for more warmaking.
[ March 08, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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It's a military tradition to put some sort of arm on your desk. As I look around my office I see ammunition from an A-10, a WWII grenade, a set of swords, countless fragments of the Iraqi war machine, a smoke grenade, a flash-bang etc. I could go on and on with what is in my office but I think your point about him having a grenade on his desk is moot. It proves nothing about his character.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
"I could go on and on with what is in my office but I think your point about him having a grenade on his desk is moot. It proves nothing about his character."
On the contrary. I think it proves quite a bit about his character. That it's not an uncommon character trait just means that he's a mediocre person.
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Jay, you appear to have missed the point of my Kevorkian comment. And, yes, we should send someone who has respect for the UN as an institution to represent us at the UN, and at the very least should not send someone who has publicly disdained it. Need I explain why?
posted
He said, basically, that 25% or so of the U.N. was waste. That is certainly something that the U.S. has the right to comment on, and certainly something the U.S. might feel is important enough to want our ambassador to deal with.
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quote:On the contrary. I think it proves quite a bit about his character. That it's not an uncommon character trait just means that he's a mediocre person.
So, Tom, why don't you enlighten us on exactly how the possession of a dud hand grenade increases ones mediocrity?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
"So, Tom, why don't you enlighten us on exactly how the possession of a dud hand grenade increases ones mediocrity?"
It's not even a sentimental souvenir of his time in the service. Displaying this on his desk, he seeks to advertise his military service while fetishizing a rather indiscriminate method of death. Which is of course a lovely trait in a diplomat.
It's one thing to speak softly and carry a big stick. It's another thing to take a foam replica of a big stick and hang it over your fireplace.
posted
Oh, come on, Tom. If you're going to hang on this particular bit of fluff as a reason to dislike the guy politically. . . well, that's just dumb.
I'm sure much more is revealed by his public statements than by the fact that he's got a novelty paperweight.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
"If you're going to hang on this particular bit of fluff as a reason to dislike the guy politically..."
Hey, I'm not saying it's a major reason behind my dislike of the guy. I'm saying that it's indicative, as scottneb has mentioned, of a character trait that I don't particularly like in my diplomats.
It wouldn't technically matter if Alberto Gonzalez displayed a photo of an electric chair on his wall, or hung a collector's edition noose -- perhaps the one used on a famous bandit -- from a hook in his office, but it would again suggest a character trait that I wouldn't find appealing in an Attorney General. (Note: I am not suggesting that Alberto Gonzalez would do this; I'm just using his name and position to make an analogy.)
posted
The problem with Bolton is that he doesn't seem to understand diplomacy.
Calling North Korea a hellhole, dominated by an oppressive lunatic may be true-- but you don't say so in public, whilst in the middle of talks with North Korea.
Honesty is a good thing, heaven knows more of our politicians need it. But diplomacy means being honest-- nicely.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I have to give Tom credit here - it's not exactly a novelty that would be a wise choice for a diplomat, given the international attitudes regarding the American penchant for "warmongering."
It's like wearing leather shoes to a PETA meeting.
And while I don't suggest we send someone pro-UN/anti-US as a diplomat to the UN, I do think we could find someone who hasn't been publicly noted as having critical and somewhat harsh opinions regarding the organization he's about to start attending as our representative.
posted
*throws a hand grenade into the thread and runs away screaming "Mightier than the sword??? <insert maniacal laugher>*
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: On the contrary. I think it proves quite a bit about his character. That it's not an uncommon character trait just means that he's a mediocre person.
quote: Displaying this on his desk, he seeks to advertise his military service while fetishizing a rather indiscriminate method of death.
So, to Tom, it's not uncommon to have people running around fetishizing about indiscriminate methods of death. I don't want to live in your world Tom. Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
"So, to Tom, it's not uncommon to have people running around fetishizing about indiscriminate methods of death. I don't want to live in your world Tom."
I wouldn't, either. It's one of the reasons I keep advocating completely disbanding the U.S. military.
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Yeah, I guess it would. I could tear up at this point, but I suppose the alternative would be to make some speech about buggy whip manufacturers. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, that whole "disbanding the US Military" thing ... was that a joke? Do you mean it? If the latter, can you explain that position? I'm not sure I'm getting it, whether it was a joke or not ...
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Tom, I didn’t miss the point of your Kevorkian comment in the least. Just wanted to point out why Bush wouldn’t associate with him. And yes, I would like you to explain why we should let someone who would continue the UN’s path of uselessness be our representative there.
Oh, and Tom, I too have a dummy hand grenade. It’s just cool. Doesn’t mean anything in the least. A piece of trivial decoration that can be a conversation starter.
Completely disbanding the U.S. military?!?!?! That’s madness. What kind of freedom and for how long do you think it would last?
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Tom, I'm also pretty interested to hear your thoughts about the total disbandonment of the US military.
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"Oh, and Tom, I too have a dummy hand grenade. It’s just cool."
I rest my case.
"Tom, that whole 'disbanding the US Military' thing ... was that a joke? Do you mean it?"
Yeah, I mean it. I also recognize that it's impractical. However, I think America is in no serious danger of foreign invasion, has no real need to project military power anywhere, and incurs substantial negatives as a consequence of military service -- not the least of which is the continuation of military subculture -- that are highly regrettable costs.
I'd love to do away with the military, and quite specifically the concept of an American military; I would, for example, turn a stripped-down force over in a heartbeat to an organization like Card's "FPE," or even our United Nations. That my tax dollars go to prop up the U.S. Armed Forces is only a smidgen less odious to me than the thought that they might prop up abortion clinics. But you are of course free to disagree with me.
quote: The Guard is getting shafted harder than standard grunts.
This just isn't the case whatsoever. I'm sure if you look at the number of Active Duty Personnel deployed in support of current operations you'd see that they greatly outnumber the number of Gaurd/Reserve/Ready Reserve Forces. [EDIT: Due to my comments in another thread, I need to prove this, huh?] The only difference is that the Gaurd and Reserve pull people straight from the community and so, gets more media coverage. It's an inherent part of the Active Duty job description to deploy.
Even if what you say was true, it wouldn't matter. I'd still do it (Separation Pay, Hostile Fire Pay, Tax Exempt Status, free travel, free food, free lodging, etc.).
quote: Nothing will kill you faster than being a few weeks away from the end of your tour.
You forget "A walk in the clouds". You might get dumped by your illiterate actress wife and nail a rich wine country heiress. After burning down their vineyard, of course.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
However, there have been several cases where Guardsmen complained about receiving inferior equipment and substandard medical care.
While I cannot personally attest to these cases, I have a general apprehension regarding military units under the command of non-military leaders being deployed in active military zones.
But I'm sure I'm only getting half the story, so take my reservations with a grain of salt...and a slice of lime.
quote:However, I think America is in no serious danger of foreign invasion,
Well, no we aren't....but without a military how long would that last?
You're arguing for the disbanding of the military and using for your argument one of the effects of having a strong military.
quote:has no real need to project military power anywhere,
I'd like to see some elaboration on this - what exactly in your view would constitute a need to project military power, other than self defense?
quote:and incurs substantial negatives as a consequence of military service -- not the least of which is the continuation of military subculture -- that are highly regrettable costs.
I'm a product of that culture, my father is still serving and my grandfather served in WWII, and I find that more than a bit offensive that you describe it as regrettable. There is a long history of great men who fought for this country and owed a great deal of their character to their military service.
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posted
No, I really don't think it would be. This is one of those "agree to disagree" areas that, IMO, it's better not to poke into too deeply, because it's almost impossible to do so without insulting other posters.
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posted
Is he referring to the family traditions like Belle mentions or is he talking about the fanboy wannabes that spend their time bragging about being Navy SEALs when the closest they came was visiting a zoo.
posted
I don't think a conventional military will do much if anything to legitimately affect the success of terrorist factions capable of destroying our country.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
*nod* I realized it might start a whole conversation on the nature of pacifism. And since we've had one of those recently, I didn't want to get back into it. No need to delete your post, though; it actually makes a fair bit of sense where it is.
posted
I'm really gonna have to laugh if the "model grenade" that the article refers to is one of those novelty things I've seen around...the ones with the grenade mounted on a piece of wood under a sign that says "Complaint Department--Please take a number" with a little tag that says "#1" attached to the pin of the grenade.
It would be just like the media not to mention that.
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