posted
Let's just say someone has become aware in some way that some Mormons believe that good weather is connected to righteousness. Let's also say that this person is curious as to whether this is a common belief among Mormons, or whether this represents a fringe element.
How would someone go about -- hypothetically, of course -- asking this question on this board?
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Edit: I got an answer. It's okay to ask. It's not okay to directly link. *grin* So, that said, I'll ask: is it actually common among Mormons to believe that things like rainfall are strongly influenced by the righteousness of the stakes in an area?
posted
Weather has always been atributed to God, Tom. It's a common theme in religion that righteousness brings a person closer to God. So, God and weather and righteousness sort of blend together.
...and that's not just Mormonism.
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posted
Scottneb: is that a "yes?" I mean, specifically, do Mormons as a rule believe that things like prayers for rain are effective, or that the ending of a drought may be indicative of, say, an increasingly righteous people?
That's the truth. You ever been to West Texas in the middle of a drought? You won't have to look too far on Wednesday nights to find people praying in parking lots for rain. Or to find preachers who tell you that if only the region would get it's act together, it would rain and the desert would bloom.
Personally, I think God (assuming God) created the desert, it's never had a whole lot of rain, droughts happen, and while I don't blame people for praying for rain I think assigning God's motivation for not providing rain to the sinfulness of an area is... well, presumptuous.
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posted
Hypothetically, I think it may be linked to the hypothetical quality of the education of the hypothetical Mormons.
Some might interpret all weather as a blessing/judgement on the righteous/unrighteous, etc. Some may just believe that there are many small miracles, and in some cases, some weather conditions may be given as an answer to prayer, but it probably goes on a case-by-case basis in very specific circumstances.
Hypothetically, having grown up in an area with a high population of scientists, I might hypothetically be expected to fall into the latter category.
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posted
Hmm...I don't think anyone can answer athouritatively how common beliefs are in the church.
In my experience...okay, I have no experience with this. I don't remember being asked to pray for rain, and I definitely don't remember the results. I've lived in a desert for most of my life (Dallas isn't), but not in a farming community, so a lack of rain was inconvenient but not devestating.
President Lorenzo Snow teaches the Lord's law of tithing. Includes selections from the movie Windows of Heaven to illustrate the Church's efforts to teach the law of tithing.
*draws from memory* in the early 1900s, the church was in danger from being deeply, deeply in debt, and there was a horrible drought. President Snow recieved inspiration to emphasize tithing in General Conference. He also taught it in the stakes of Zion (there were many fewer then), and people started paying tithing much more faithfully. The church pulled out of debt and hasn't been in it since (as far as I know - temples and church buildings are paid for with cash), and the drought ended.
posted
I have a large amount of family in Souther Utah. An area that has been plaqued by a drought for almost ten years. The leaders of the church actually went to that area and told the people that it was because of their unrighteousness that was causing the affliction.
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posted
Of course there was a huge influx of rain in that area that swelled rivers that swallowed houses whole. So, I guess you should be careful what you ask for.
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posted
If you are plagued by drought and crop failures does that mean that you are unrighteous, or does that mean you should move?
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posted
And if an area has really good weather, does that mean one should emulate the common behaviors there?
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posted
One of my problems with the idea that weather is linked to righteousness it that different people need different weather, even if they live in the same area. So how would God decide which weather need to grant among the differing needs? I think it's much more productive to pray for the ability to adjust to the current situation, weather related or otherwise. It's never seemed very productive, to me, to pray for changes in external situations over changes in your own attitudes/abilities/whatever.
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posted
The LDS people are held to a higher standard according to the church. The population of Southern Utah is almost 80% Mormon and thus the area suffers if it's Mormon population falls into sin.
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posted
The weather bit is incidental to the larger question. Obviously it isn't like a light switch - righteous = rain, unrighteous = no rain. It's more closely linked to the idea of prayer.
Do you think your prayers are more likely to be answered when you are doing your best to please God or when you are ignoring him? Do you think prayers make a difference at all?
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posted
Was that in response to me? Because I'd be willing to bet that not all Mormons in southern Utah have the same weather needs. Some might be farmers and some might have mold allergies. So...if they're being righteous enough to earn favorable weather, who will it be favorable to? The majority? It seems...too arbitrary for me. It makes me uncomfortable. I hold that it's more productive to pray about changing yourself than about changing outside circumstances.
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posted
The idea isn't to pray for rain. The idea is to change yourself to make yourself worthy of it. It's completely different.
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posted
I totally support the idea of praying as a means of self improvement. I just don't see what the weather has to do with it - more importantly, how someone can look at the weather somewhere and then make a judgement on the moral character of the people who live there. Does that make a better question? I'm struggling a little (and I don't think I'm the only one - maybe someone else can ask a clearer question?).
quote:how someone can look at the weather somewhere and then make a judgement on the moral character of the people who live there.
I don't see that anyone is doing that.
Unless you are referring to President Snow, and then it is his stewardship and his job to urge the Saints to greater faithfullness.
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posted
I didn't mean to imply that the people that live in Hawaii are better than the people of Antartica. God has the ability to do whatever he sees fit. If his people live off the land and they start to slip-up he can withdraw the rain from the area and make them suffer until they get the message and change their ways. I don't believe you can tell the righteousness of a people based on the weather in their area.
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quote:I have a large amount of family in Souther Utah. An area that has been plaqued by a drought for almost ten years. The leaders of the church actually went to that area and told the people that it was because of their unrighteousness that was causing the affliction
That's what I was referring to, as well as what you said about President Snow.
I'm really and truly only asking about the weather connection here - I hope it doesn't sound otherwise. I don't want to make anyone upset, I'm only curious! One of my closest friends is a meterologist, and I have several other friends in meterology, so it's a topic that I'm in close contact with, and have a lot of interest in.
Edited because it's polite to spell people's names correctly.
posted
It's the responsibility of the leaders to get inspiration for the people under their stewardship - to call them to repentance when necessary, and to speak on subjects that are necessary. No one gets inspiration for people's lives outside of their stewardship, but it's important that leaders do. Otherwise, they are just going on their own opinions, and the church isn't being led by inspiration.
I don't the weather is a specific subject of theology - it's more along the lines of being worthy so the Lord can bless you, in whatever it is you need.
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posted
I think its a common belief, (at least it is in my ward) but I don't personally put too much stock in it. I may live on the Wasatch front, but a desert is still a desert and it's going to be dry, a lot.
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Matthew 5:44 - Matthew 5:45 -- 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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posted
It's not so much that some Mormons may or may not believe that weather is strongly influenced by prayer, or by righteousness/sinfulness. It's that many (most) of us believe that such things CAN be influenced by prayer, or occasionally by righteousness/sinfulness. I know of no one who would claim that weather is primarily influenced by these things.
Weather isn't special in this regard, of course. Mormons and other religiously-minded people tend to believe that all kinds of things, big and small, can potentially be influenced by such factors.
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posted
Right. And sometimes the Lord blesses you for no reason at all, and sometimes blessings come before you tried to be obedient and prayed for them.
I will not start with the dueling scriptures.
Why is everyone stuck on the weather?
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posted
Did you read the whole thread? That's not what we're saying.
If you're going to turn this into a Bible bash, I'm out. I don't want to be responsible for taking someone's beliefs away.
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posted
Because that's what Tom was asking about in the first place. I was actually impressed at how well we were sticking to the weather.
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Well, it's actually a shame I can't link directly to the thread in question, because I wanted to discuss some things I saw specifically in that thread which I found intriguing from both a theological and sociological perspective. But it's my opinion that quoting -- and even paraphrasing -- those things is no better than linking, especially not when it comes to creating a "safe harbor" atmosphere, so I don't know how much freedom I have to answer your question, Katie. Had someone asked that question before reporting the thread....
posted
Saying that God has the power to affect the weather and saying that prayer is a way to actually communicate with God and saying that weather is a good consistent indication of the righteousness of a people are vastly different things. Weather and climate are vastly different things.
Yes, there is official LDS doctrine that God will intervene in the physical world. My stake just held a special stake-wide fast for precipitation, and it was implemented through the stake president and bishops. Will this help the situation? I don't know, and I don't think it really matters, since I'm in no position to evaluate the righteousness or the sincerity of the fasts of everyone else. I don't know what the principle is, or what the critical mass is. Are we pulling for 30% fasting this time? Does it operate on the same principle as Sodom and Gommorah - that even 10 righteous people will save the entire county? I don't know; I doubt it's that simplistic.
I do know that exercising faith on my part was a very important aspect of it. I know that I am a natural skeptic and not very good at fasting with a purpose, but I know that commiting myself to do so makes a big difference in my personal spirituality and faith. I'm not going to assume that my experiences with it are similar to anyone else's though.
This may seem contradictory; one of our apostles just addressed us during general conference about how sometimes things don't get better - sometimes the righteous person still dies. That doesn't negate the value of faith, and coming to a full understanding of the nature of faith is something that I'm only beginning to understand. But from what I've seen so far, its power is very real and very puissant in my own life. I'll keep working on assumptions based on my own anecdotal evidence as I increase my understanding of it.
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posted
"I know that I am a natural skeptic and not very good at fasting with a purpose, but I know that commiting myself to do so makes a big difference in my personal spirituality and faith."
*nod* It's always been my belief that convincing people that they're sacrificing for a higher purpose is one of the single best ways to build faith in that purpose.
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quote:It's always been my belief that convincing people that they're sacrificing for a higher purpose is one of the single best ways to build faith in that purpose.
That sounds like a pretty sound belief, as long as you're looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who wants to do some convincing. In my situation, I'm not really sure who would be doing the convincing, since I certainly didn't decide to participate just because the Bishop said so. In fact, he didn't even say so - he just announced that the fast would be held.
I guess if anyone is trying to convince me of said method for said purpose, it must be God, and in that case I'm pretty much OK with it.
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posted
Hey kat, why don't you start a new thread that we can fight each other in. I'll start the fight about why 2% mild is superior to any 1% or Skim you can mention.
[EDIT] Ha! "2% mild" apparently my spelling powers have been negated. It's supposed to be "2% milk."
posted
I think I need to. This is one of those days where I long to be climbing a mountain. I'm about to bounce off the walls here.
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posted
"I guess if anyone is trying to convince me of said method for said purpose, it must be God..."
It depends on what you consider the purpose, I suppose. If the purpose of faith is to get rain, then no, this doesn't work.
I suspect -- speaking here as a secularist -- that the purpose of faith is faith. And demanding works as a demonstration of faith, particularly works that do not have obvious this-world benefits, is a fantastic way to produce more faith.
There have been ample studies on this; people tend to justify their labor to themselves and seek rationalizations to that end. For example, if someone pays slightly more for an item, they will convince themselves that the thing they bought is better than a similar cheaper item, even in the face of evidence contradicting them. In the same way, someone who has started walking to a destination is likely to continue walking to that destination, all else being held equal, even if a bus comes by -- because once you commit emotionally to a cost, you justify the value of the cost.
I believe this principle applies as strongly to religion as it does to politics, advertising, recreation, and the other realms to which it's been applied; people love the things for which they've made sacrifices more, in fact, than they are likely to sacrifice for the things they love. The decision to commit creates a fairly powerful emotional bond; I've often wondered if it isn't actually one of the major non-hormonal emotional factors in a sexual relationship.
posted
That doesn't obviate the truth of God, though. God would know that about us, being a fabulous sociologist. So, in order to engender a faith that could sustain us, one of the ways he has devised to bless us with it is to ask for sacrifices.
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That was a lovely answer, Annie. I think I'm in too much of a fighting mood today to express it.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
