posted
To me, it’s always appeared as simply a shame that Wagner is never heard in Israel (minus the few attempts of Zubin Mehta); but I’ve never been in the position where someone wrote incredible music and also called for the entire destruction of a people to whom I belong. So what do the Jews here think? Is this par for the course and right on track, or would you be fine with the Ring series being preformed in Jerusalem?
posted
I think I'd be against the Ring being performed in Jerusalem. We never play the wedding march at our weddings because it was written be Wagner.
For me, the music is tainted and all I can think of when I hear it is his burning hatred. I do think it is possible to divorce the art from the artist, but only up to a certain point. For me, Wagner is beyond that point.
Also, there are still many Shoah (Holocaust) survivors in Jerusalem and many children and grandchildren of survivors. Performing Wagner seems disrespectful to them.
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posted
I, personally, will listen to Wagner's music. However, I would not play it at a wedding or any other public event.
That would go double for playing it in Jerusalem. Any problems that I would have it aside, the survivors and their families would rule that out (just as Mrs.M mentioned).
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posted
OK, then let me rephrase that: what do you think of someone trying to get the music played there, to the point of conducting it for the few minutes it took to get it booed to a halt?
posted
Well, honestly, if they played it in a concert, where people can choose if they want to hear it (as opposed to playing it in a public space, for instance), I don't think he'd get booed to a halt, since people who object wouldn't come. And I know I would probably enjoy listening to Wagner, and I would go to a concert to hear it.
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posted
I would need to know more about the circumstances. Was it a decision that he made alone? Was it part of a pre-arranged program?
Did the audience know in advance? And why is Mehta pushing this -- surely he must know he's fighting local opinion. Why is he doing so? (Or why does he say he is?)
posted
Rivka, I'm going to reveal some more of my ignorance and say you'll undoubtedly know much more after your Google search than I currently do, I would assume he's doing it because he loves the music, and wants it heard. It really is beautiful music.
posted
Rivka, in shame I went off and did my own search... and hit exactly the same site!
A quote on the most recent episode (of which I was not aware):
quote:In July 2001, the prestigious Berlin Staatskapelle performed the "Tristan und Isolde" overture at the Israel Festival. While the orchestra's condutor, Daniel Barenboim (himself a Jew), had promised to respect the ban on Wagner's music, he surprised his audience by asking them if they wanted to hear Wagner as an encore following the scheduled performance. Most of the audience was in favor of the encore, which received a standing ovation from all but a few of the listeners. However, during a half-hour debate that preceded the performance of the overture, numerous Israelis protested and walked out of the theater, some shouting insults as they went.
quote: To hear the way some Israelis have reacted to the playing of Richard Wagner’s music in Jerusalem, however, one would think that the words at Dachau say “never forgive and never forget.”
Forgiveness, in Jewish Law and tradition, requires repentance by the forgivee. Since there is zero evidence that Wagner did so, forgiveness is hardly relevant.
quote: When the slated program was finished, the conductor turned to the audience and offered to play the piece.
Stupid move. If you are going to play a controversial piece, that should be VERY clear before the performance.
quote: He engaged in thirty minutes of vigorous debate with the audience.
I love Israelis.
quote: These reasons alone, however, are insufficient to support the continued taboo on Wagner’s music in Israel.
Sez you.
quote:And the fact that he was Hitler’s favorite composer is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not his music should be played in Israel.
Ok, make it 95% -- I agree with that. Wagner's virulent antisemitism is more than sufficient cause.
quote: Their attitude suggests that reconciliation between Germans and Jews is, quite frankly, impossible. They advocate a wall of cultural separation between Germans and Jews (or, more precisely, Germanness and Jewishness) that is, at its root, precisely what the Nazis advocated. The Nazis banned the music of Gustav Mahler because he was a Jew and, hence, odious to their sensibilities - never mind that he was an outstanding composer.
This is utter garbage. He's not "banned" because he was German -- other German composers are played with impunity. He is banned because he was a loathsome, virulent antisemite, whose political writings can be directly linked to Hitler's later works.
quote: Should Native Americans shun the patriotic marches of John Philip Sousa because they celebrate a nation that arose, to a great extent, at their expense?
Actually, I would understand (although not suggest) that position.
quote: People should discuss and consider the context in which the music was created; but they should not let that context interfere with their assessment of the aesthetic appeal of the work itself.
Because the pieces are guaranteed free of Wagner's influence? Gimme a break! No piece of art can truly be divorced from its creator. If that were possible, art could be created by computers.
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posted
I mean, I enjoy Shakespeare's work, and Shakespeare was a blatant antisemite. I mean, just look at "The Merchant of Venice"...
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posted
Rivka, thanks for the link. Hobbsey, thanks for bringing this up. While I enjoy classical music, I don't pay attention to composers or their history, so I had no idea about any of this. Given what I've just read about Wagner in that article, I can quite understand why Jews would not want to listen to his music. And like rivka said, I don't see it having anything to do with his being German.
Thanks for the education. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
No man who can write, "If you prick us, do we not bleed?" is a blatant antisemite.
Try playing Wagner in 20 years or so, when there are (probably) no living Holocaust survivors remaining. Until then, doing so in defiance of their feelings is callous.
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posted
Not that I'm Jewish, but I have to say, there's a difference between having a cultural disdain of Jews (as I always felt Shakespeare's was, just a part of the group-thought on Jews) and writing an entire book about how terrible the Jewish people really are.
I think the one thing I don't get is why it's important that he was tied, after death to WWII or Nazism. Would his writings have made him any less terrible or his music less questionable if they hadn't been picked up by Hitler? [That question sounds more debatist than I meant it to, I think I'm just tired and my writting styles are begining to overlap in my mind. Sometimes while trying to speak in Jane Austen's language I get confused and slip into middle-English]
quote:Not that I'm Jewish, but I have to say, there's a difference between having a cultural disdain of Jews (as I always felt Shakespeare's was, just a part of the group-thought on Jews) and writing an entire book about how terrible the Jewish people really are.
Exactly. And Shakespeare almost certainly never met a Jew, and was merely reflecting/exploiting the prejudices of his time.
quote: I think the one thing I don't get is why it's important that he was tied, after death to WWII or Nazism. Would his writings have made him any less terrible or his music less questionable if they hadn't been picked up by Hitler?
It is important for two reasons, I think.
One is the emotional one -- to many many survivors (and others), Wagner's music is inextricably linked to Hitler. That's why I suggested waiting until there are no living survivors remaining.
The other aspect is, virulent hatred that stays on paper is one thing. When it triggers violence and genocide, that is another. Then it cannot be dismissed as mere words any longer.
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quote:The other aspect is, virulent hatred that stays on paper is one thing. When it triggers violence and genocide, that is another. Then it cannot be dismissed as mere words any longer.
I just don't see that, if I said that it would be a good idea to shout fire in a crowded room, how it be not as bad if no one did it than if someone took my advice years after my demise?
Somehow I think this disagreement is linked to our two very different understandings of final judgment (I'm thinking back to the debate on proxy baptisms here, seems like the same issue in a really weird way).
And for the record, I agree with your first reason.
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Somehow I think this disagreement is linked to our two very different understandings of final judgment (I'm thinking back to the debate on proxy baptisms here, seems like the same issue in a really weird way).
*laugh* I would not have thought of the connection, but I think you are right.
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Wagner was, in fact, an alien parasite inhabiting a conductor's body.
His work shouldn't be played by anyone, becuase it contains coded messages that keep us from finding the truth. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I'm not Jewish and I don't (nor probably will I ever) live in Israel, so I have no need to form an opinion on this though of course I have. I guess I still feel that I would be in favor of Wagner's music being played if people wanted to hear it, but I'm sensitive to these arguments, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the policy so far, though if it's the same in 20 years my mind may change on that score.
posted
I enjoy his music, and listen to his compositions at home.
However, put aside the fact that Wagner was antisematic, that he was Hitler's favorite composer.
Think of how his music was played during WWII. When Jews were freezing in minus fourty degrees (Celcius) in the concentration camps, wearing light, shabby prison clothing, his music was booming throughout the loudspeakers.
When an Auschwitz survivor hears this music, it's the same for him (or her) being trapped in a small, closed room, or hearing loud, rythmatic footsteps, or even the German language. There's nothing to do with reason or logic. It's a basic emotion of horror, and that is why I will never play Wagner in public - just in case there's a holocaust survivor out there, hearing it and suffering.
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posted
Ew, I didn't know that. That just makes it so much worse. Constant memories of hell through music.
You know, this is one of the reasons I love Hatcrack. I get to learn all sorts of things that I otherwise probably wouldn't.
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posted
You know, this reminds me of a hymn from church. "There is beauty all around" when there's love at home (so the first verse continues). I hate it. I can't stand singing it. I've vetoed singing it ever since I realized I could. Now, mind you, I don't make a fuss and say anything to anyone. I just sit quietly and don't join in.
Why, you may ask? Because my mother used to beat me while she sang or hummed it. The irony.
So*, in my own little way, I can understand.
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posted
Yes, but imagine if the composer of that song was actually an advocate of beating children who didn't anticipate your every whim.
I think Mehta is just being perverse, which I think is cheap art. Ugliness can be used to confront people with the truth, but I think there is a limit to where it just becomes abuse.
But I had no idea about Wagner's link to the holocaust- I knew he was Hitler's favorite composer but I alwasy thought "well, he can't help that." It's one of those things everyone assumes everyone knows to the point that no one bothers explaining it.
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posted
Oh no, mothertree, I agree. That's why I said in my own little way. This is much worse.
Beanny, I am. Living a perfectly happy life now. Have for quite a long time, actually. I'm also living halfway around the world from my nearest relatives. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Think of how his music was played during WWII. When Jews were freezing in minus forty degrees (Celsius) in the concentration camps, wearing light, shabby prison clothing, his music was booming throughout the loudspeakers.
When an Auschwitz survivor hears this music, it's the same for him (or her) being trapped in a small, closed room, or hearing loud, rhythmic footsteps, or even the German language. There's nothing to do with reason or logic. It's a basic emotion of horror, and that is why I will never play Wagner in public - just in case there's a holocaust survivor out there, hearing it and suffering.
quote:Think of how his music was played during WWII. When Jews were freezing in minus fourty degrees (Celcius) in the concentration camps, wearing light, shabby prison clothing, his music was booming throughout the loudspeakers.
When an Auschwitz survivor hears this music, it's the same for him (or her) being trapped in a small, closed room, or hearing loud, rythmatic footsteps, or even the German language. There's nothing to do with reason or logic. It's a basic emotion of horror, and that is why I will never play Wagner in public - just in case there's a holocaust survivor out there, hearing it and suffering.
Okay, this is a good reason not to.
Katie's Opinion: The composer doesn't matter. If the material is good, it needs to be accepted on it's own merits. If it is not, it doesn't matter how virtuous the creator was, it still isn't good music.
As long Wagner's music doesn't actually consist of singing his antisemitism, then I think it should be okay to play. There are so many artists and writers whose politics I vehemently disagree with, but who still wrote some incredibly beautiful things. It's a problem for me only when it invades their art. So, Shelley and Homer are fine. Kipling is borderline, depending on the work. Rand is not.
However, if that exact music was used as an anthem of destruction and THAT is the association for so many people, then it is not okay to play.
I agree with whomever said that in thirty years, I'll bet it will be fine.
posted
How's is this different -- for those of you who don't agree with OSC's political and religious views, but love his work (his books). Is hearing Wagner's music bad because we don't agree with his political or moral views as the person he was outside of his music?
I'm just curious. At which point do we separate the art from the artist?
I also did not know of the Wagner/anti-semite views until this thread.
posted
I knew Wagner was an anti-semite. I still don't know the extent of it. AND I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!
His music is beautiful. I don't want to think of Nazis and freezing/dying/starving Jews/Homosexuals/Communists in concentration camps when I hear it.
Most artists... Heck, most people.. have views I concider Evil. Obviously not to the extent that Wagner was evil, but Farmgirl is right. How IS it different from any artist expressing an abhorrent view?
This is why I really hate it when an artist expresses a political view. Yes, they have the right to speak and no one should take it away from them but it taints their work. It makes it hard to enjoy their work without thinking "This person would deny me my basic human rights" "This person would exterminate me" "This person thinks I am a slave to their idea of what government should do."
When I first found out OSCs opinion on certain issues I reacted much like that Something Positive cartoon not long ago. (I got over it =) In the end if you want to have any art in your life... Or even friends in your life, you have to seperate people from their opinions. And especially seperate their Art from their opinions. Otherwise you'll sit in an empty room all alone with no music or stories hating yourself for whatever you're humming.
That doesn't mean I would have wanted to hang out with Wagner, but I wouldn't avoid his concerts either.
As to playing it in Israel though.. I dunno.. that strikes me as Cussing in Church...
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