Did anyone else see the Millenium Falcon? The scene right at the beginning, after they bring down the burning ship - Obi Wan and Anakin are in that shuttle that's about to land among the "politicians," and as they dock, right below them is the Milennium Falcon!
Mwa ha ha ha ha!
And I, too, was waiting for Padme to survive so Leia could remember her real mother. I thought of the possibility that maybe since she's a force baby she has some kind of precocious memory...
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So...was that extended speech by Palpatine/Sidious about the ability of his ex-Sith master to "manipulate midichlorians and create life" not _only_ part of the "Save Padme'" bait, but as close a hint as we're going to get to the truth of Shmi's pregnancy?
Also, what was that bit about Qui Gon at the end? The closest we'll get to a "disappearing dead jedi" explanation?
Even though he didn't disappear?
*grumble*
So many plot holes and unfinished threads. No real closure.
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Actually, I don't see tech as a bad thing in SW, even the Jedi use it at times.
Too much tech on the other hand makes for a dark leaning.....
I don't think it is as clear sut as you make it seem. Also, the machines can't actually use the Force, so that goes against you assumptions as well.
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Another thing mentioned in the books was disapproval of the Jedi using clones. Droids are one thing, expendible, but Jedi shouldn't endorse profligate waste and destruction even of droids. But with human clones, the Jedi signed on and led a bunch of well-trained blaster bolt-catchers. The clones were created for two reasons only: to fight and die for the Republic. Talk about a perversion of life!
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Ha ha! I'm the first one to mention it!
Did anyone else see the Millenium Falcon? The scene right at the beginning, after they bring down the burning ship - Obi Wan and Anakin are in that shuttle that's about to land among the "politicians," and as they dock, right below them is the Milennium Falcon!
Mwa ha ha ha ha!
It doesn't have to be the Millenium Falcon, it could just be a YT-1300. The Millenium Falcon was a modified YT-1300.
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Yeah, sorry to break it to you, Annie, but Millenium Falcon lookalikes are like Civics in the Star Wars universe. After all, if it were distinctive, people would say everywhere they went, "Hey! It's the MF!"
Besides, at this time the ship was probably not even built Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Or it was, but without the modifications..remember, the end of this movie was only about 18 years before the beginning of A New Hope....
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I loved the scene when Palpatine reveals his true nature to Anakin and then to the Jedi Masters come to arrest him. Wow. How he fakes being weak and blasts Windu after saying "no! no! no!" in that scary deep Emperor voice.
And scene right before that when Anakin and Padme look out the windows toward each other... you really feel the death of a whole civilization right about to happen.
And when Yoda feels the butcher of the Jedi. The death of his whole religion/order.
And when Palatine created the Empire to "thunderous applause".
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I have a question about order 66. The clones immediately understood what Palpatine meant when he said, "execute order 66." So if the clones knew about order 66 before the betryal, wouldn't the Jedi knights sense something is wrong from the storm troopers a long time ago?
Is the Death Star being constructed in Episode III the same one that was used in Episode IV? Did it take the Empire 18 years to build the Death Star?
Did anyone else burst out laughing when Obi Wan said "I can't watch any more of this"? Oh, am I the only one who did that? Darn.
quote:The "Dark Side" seem to prefer mechanism's, the robot army, the army of clones that are apparently attempts to turn the biological into the mechanical, and weapons like "Walkers" that are mechanical perversions of animals.
Technology isn't inherently evil. The Sith just prefer droids and clones because they are easier to control than biological sentient beings.
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I imagina it could have taken 18 years to complete, just look at how big it is.
the second one probably didn't take as long since they had already had the experiance of building one.
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Maybe halliburton was building the Death Star.
I really liked the parallel between the final showdowns. Anakin and Yoda were in a bad strategic position while Palpatine and Kenobe had the higher ground. Anakin charged and Yoda retreated. My friend said Yoda punked out. I prefer to think of it as wisdom and patience triumphing over brute force.
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quote:Originally posted by Beren One Hand: I have a question about order 66. The clones immediately understood what Palpatine meant when he said, "execute order 66." So if the clones knew about order 66 before the betryal, wouldn't the Jedi knights sense something is wrong from the storm troopers a long time ago?
I think it was supposed to be some biological code within the clones. They didn't actually know they would be killing their generals beforehand, but after hearing the order, they switched sides...
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The Clone Army of the Republic always had its first loyalty to the Republic-i.e. Chancellor / Emperor Palpatine, and since they had been created to be perfectly obedient, they would not view it as 'betrayl', and so it wouldn't flag as such to the Jedi sense.
Also, remember, guys, that the Death Star was the size of a small moon, except every centimeter and gram of it was built, and supplied, and staffed. Not to mention Palpatine had things to do like creating a fleet of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers.
It takes us like five years to add an extra lane to a road Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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This review needs a bit of context. I went into this movie with thoughts of Ep 1, 2, and Return of the Jedi in my mind.
I came away giving Ep 3 the benefit of the doubt in two aspects. One, Episode 2 should have been Episode 1. And this movie - Revenge of the Sith - should have been split in two. There was simply too much ground for one movie to cover. I don't believe this should be held against Episode 3 as a movie as such. Sins of the father and all that.
Second, I had watched Return of the Jedi the night before, my personal favourite of the originals. I haven't seen any of them in quite some time, and watching it now it hit me just how pulpy those movies were. I don't mean that as an attack, of course. RotJ has plenty of bizarre plot points and the Ewoks were obviously the spiritual predecessors of the Gungans. In a word, the original trilogy was not infallible, and it is unfair to compare the prequels to them as if they were. This doesn't redeem Eps 1 or 2 in any way, but it gives some leeway to Ep 3.
I think that takes care of two of the main criticisms that could be levelled at Ep 3. Too much happened, and there was an awful lot of pulpiness.
One thing the originals always had that the prequels don't, of course, is humanity. Watching RotJ, it's easy to be reminded how cool Han Solo was. There is no one truly likable in the prequels. All three are much more sterile.
Now, Ep 3 itself. Specific annoyance: A2D2. The first half hour of the movie, he was a smug little toy that could have been blown out of an airlock and the audience would have cheered. Then he went away. Enough said.
The dialogue, for the most part, was very workhorse. Very little that was clever or interesting. Same with the acting; though Hayden Christensan managed to upgrade from whiny bitch to angsty teenager. Same species, just a little less grating.
This changed in the last half hour. When Kenobie confronts the newly minted Vader and Yoda goes after Palpatine, I thought the acting and dialogue finally found their footing. Ewen McGregor in particular did a fantastic job with some genuinely sad dialogue, half mourning, half pleading. And Yoda had the best line of the movie, in response to Palpatine's "The Jedi are no more!" --- "Not if anything I have to say about it."
This was probably the best looking movie ever. The battle scenes were spectacular; I promise, these are the best fantasy-sci-fi battle scenes ever filmed. I can't imagine them being topped anytime soon.
When the climax was arriving, I was riveted. As Samuel L. Jackson's character went to confront Palpatine, I was into it. I even had a sense of dread, something the other prequels never generated.
So. Keeping in mind that this movie gets a free pass on the many silly plotpoints and the overstuffed narrative, I'm going to just say it: Episode III can stand with the original trilogy. My first instinct was to call it better than Return of the Jedi; maybe I was hasty. But it certainly is a contender. Maybe the best I can say is this: the sins of Jar Jar have been erased. That might be enough.
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quote:I think it was supposed to be some biological code within the clones. They didn't actually know they would be killing their generals beforehand, but after hearing the order, they switched sides...
That's what I figured as well. These guys are manufactured clones. Palpatine probably secretly had the order programmed into their subconscious as they came of the production line. It's like in spy movies and the like where there are people with something programmed in their head that they don't even know about, and all it takes is some trigger word to set it off. So I don't think that the clones themselves had any idea that they were going to betray the jedi until Palpatine triggered them.
Either that, or maybe they were briefed on order 66, but were just told that it was a contingency plan for if some jedi turned dark and needed to be taken down. They wouldn't have to know that it was a plot to wipe out all the jedi because they may not have known that it was happening everywhere. It'd just be one of many orders that they may have to implement if they were ordered to. Just like how I'm sure they'd go on suicide missions without a thought if ordered to. So again, it wouldn't be like they were waiting for the order all along. In any case, Yoda at least sensed the change in their mind set immediately. But then, he's Yoda.
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Yoda was also happily surrounded by more Wookies than Clones, and in fact there were a handful of Clones near him at all.
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The dissapearing Force being (merging with the Force) underscores the source of Lucas' inspiration for the Jedi, characters like Yoda and the whole Jedi religion are based on the Shamanistic teachings of Don Yaun Matus, through his apprentice Carlos Casteneda. These books also underlie the success and faliure of The Wheel of Time books and happen to have sparked the psycidelic craze in the 60's.
A Seperate Reality, Tales of Power, Journey to Ixtlan, and so on. If your read them you will be very surprised how much Jedi is derivitive of Don Juan.
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The entire Star Wars storyline, as created by Lucas, was influenced by so many other epic, mythic stories humans tell each other that naturally if you examine another, you will reach the conclusion that SW derives from that.
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Natalie Portman was abysmal. Of course, the writing didn't help. Some lines I had the most problems with:
"Now it's time to JUMP SHIP!" No, really? 'Cause when I get in an escape pod, I'm usually there to take a bubble bath. And he thinks it's so funny. Idiot.
"...my little green friend!" Oh, my, did we just jump back in time to The Muppet Movie? "It's not easy being green..." (I know, that's not in The Muppet Movie. Bite me.) Seriously, it was said with such hate, I cracked up. Oooooh! He called you LITTLE and GREEN! Kick his BUTT!
The whole thing with Anakin, Mace, and Palpatine. P: "Anakin! Heeelp me!" M: "Don't listen to him, Anakin!" P: "He's... too powerful. I'm... so weak!" P: "He's evil, Anakin! Help me!" M: "HE'S the evil one! Help ME!" P: "Too... weak... can't... talk in... complete sentences..." A: "You can't kill him! He has to face a trial!" M: "He's freakin' evil! They're all under his control! This mutha's gotta DIE!" P: "Help meeee!" A: *cuts off Mace's arm w/ lightsaber* P: "Muahahahaha! I will kill you now!" A: "What? I so didn't see this coming!" P: "Die, Jedi scum!" M: *flies out of window* A: "You are so awesomely powerful. I will serve you now, even though I'm about to cry." P: "Good, my young... APPRENTICE!" Audience: "Aaaaaah! It's the TRUMP!"
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Oh, and don't get me started on the medical issues. What, they have this advanced civilization and no pain control for women having emergency surgery? Also, um, "She's lost the will to live, so we're going to let her die now, and surgically remove her babies without consulting her, even though she's obviously able to talk." What the freak? Sheesh... Not to mention, she never looked like she was more than 5 or 6 months along with one baby, much less twins. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Actually, as it was a secret pregnancy (notice how no one mentioned she was pregnant until Obi-Wan did? With the exception of Palpy, of course), I could buy that-- if she had absolutely no pre-natal care.
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Well, I would think that they did consult her. I don't recall anything indicating that they didn't. And she didn't seem to be in THAT much pain, so they probably did do something for that as well. And Alucard, some people want to be surprised about such things and therefore don't get ultrasounds.
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neo, if their medicine is so advanced they don't do c-sections any more, you would think they could eliminate the pain completely. She really did seem to hurt when they were pulling around down in there.
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Oh, and then there was the thing about she wouldn't be allowed to continue working as a senator when the baby was born. What the heck? Why on earth not? I did not get that at all.
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Because Jedi are not supposed to marry and procreate for some reason ("Attachment leads to the Dark Side!" or some such) so it probably would have caused a huge scandal she'd rather avoid.
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I wonder if it was actually Palpatine that caused the birth of Anakin. At the opera/concert thing he told the tale of the original Dark Lord and his being able to influence the Force particles to create life. Anakin's mother was supposedly impregnated by these same Force particles... I wonder...
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quote:So I don't think that the clones themselves had any idea that they were going to betray the jedi until Palpatine triggered them.
That makes sense. You guys are probably right about the biological codes. I wonder if the cartoons gave any detail explanations of order 66.
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Actually, I was kinda taken aback by the not working as a senator anymore as well... Maybe that's just how society works on Naboo. Women are expected to stay home with the kids. Who are we to judge their culture?
It wasn't just because it was Anakin baby, because the next thing she said after that was something like, "...and if they find out that you're the father you'll be kicked out of the jedi order." So it made it sound like the part before was the consequence of having a baby at all, and that part was the consequence of it being Anakin's baby.
quote:That makes sense. You guys are probably right about the biological codes. I wonder if the cartoons gave any detail explanations of order 66.
They didn't, which made it all the more surprising.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I wonder if it was actually Palpatine that caused the birth of Anakin. At the opera/concert thing he told the tale of the original Dark Lord and his being able to influence the Force particles to create life. Anakin's mother was supposedly impregnated by these same Force particles... I wonder...
I posed as such earlier! In addition to being "Save Padme" bait, it fill in a LOT of questions Episode One left unanswered...and is probably the ONLY explanation we'll ever get for Anakin's "Midichlorian Virgin Birth".
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quote:Episode III can stand with the original trilogy. My first instinct was to call it better than Return of the Jedi; maybe I was hasty.
Agreed. My first thought coming out of the theater was "damn. The second half of that was the best thing in the whole series!" I don't know if that's really true, but I do think Episode III is in the same league as IV, V and VI.
Re: the not working as a senator anymore thing. I was taken aback by this too. My guess is that it was because she was having babies out of wedlock or when she (apparently) was not in a realtionship. Or something.
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One of my friends who saw it with me suggested it was even better than Empire.
I believe it can stand alongside IV and VI, but Empire has one HUGE thing that III does not - chemistry between the romantic leads. I buy Han and Leia's banter much more than the "You're so beautiful" crap given in III.
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quote: Responding to the point about Obi-wan not knowing about Leia, we don't actually see/hear a reaction from Obi-wan when Yoda says "there is another", so how do you know he was surprised? Maybe he said that Luke was their only hope because he figured that there wouldn't be time to train Leia, and Yoda simply thought otherwise
It has always been pretty obvious to me that Yoda was merely reminding Obi Wan that Leia might have jedi powers. There is no guarantee that she would. After all, jedi don't have children, so it's not automatic that there children would have the force. I don't think GL was thinking that deeply into it at the time, though.
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There's also the question of why Vader didn't recognize Leia as his daughter. He recognized Luke's last name, but even if Leia had a "force signature" that he could feel her presence with, he still wouldn't have known that she was his daughter. As far as he was concerned, she was the daughter of Senator Organa
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The Clone Wars cartoons are a lot of fun to watch, but they don't tell much of a story. They're 90% action. That's all well and good for what they are, but I don't see how that kind of format could have worked for the first 2 episodes in the saga. Would fans really have been more satisfied with 2 movies of jedi and clonetroopers blowing stuff up?
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I guess you didn't see the "slightly altered" part of my post. Though Volume II of the cartoons was pretty darn heavy on story, especially concerning "Anakin's Final Jedi Trial".
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On a nonstoryline note, was it just me or did it take a few seconds for Palpy to stab the first jedi that tried to arrest him? I mean, come on! You're a jedi that can hit lightning fast lasers with an inch-and-a-half blade. Why can't you block a lightsaber stab that comes at you at about 15 miles an hour?
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quote:I guess you didn't see the "slightly altered" part of my post. Though Volume II of the cartoons was pretty darn heavy on story, especially concerning "Anakin's Final Jedi Trial".
I saw it, but since you didn't specify slightly altered in what why, how should I know what you had in mind. Besides, adding in a story is more than a slight alteration. That's the real trick, isn't it? I've heard others say that the prequels should have been more like the Clone Wars cartoons, but it just seems to be another way of saying that there should be more jedi and clone action. But would that have fixed the dialogue and acting problems which most people like to pick on? Don't get me wrong though. I like the cartoons too. But whereas they focus on the war, it was more important for the movies to focus on Anakin, Obi-wan, Padme, and even politics.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Here is a question for all of you. mechanisms and the force.
The "Dark Side" seem to prefer mechanism's, the robot army, the army of clones that are apparently attempts to turn the biological into the mechanical, and weapons like "Walkers" that are mechanical perversions of animals.
And you have the big bad guys showing their descent into darkness by becoming mechanical men such as Vader and Sedious.
The "Light Side" seems to prefer natural, with their preference for a wider array of races, riding living mounts, and the whole preservation of life bit.
So being a great pilot is actually being hip on tech, and that means dark leanings. So was Anakins first major work of accomplishment, building a mechanical man (C3PO).
Yet if we assume Nature Good, and Tech Evil, why is it that only one little robot survives the entire trilogy memory intact and apparently, a good guy? What does this say about the Tech/Nature dichotomy.
Or am I just going brain numb from lack of sleep?
But...Luke spent all his time on Tatooine flying around on a speeder, he was the best pilot in the rebel alliance, AND he had that mechanical hand. And of course, the lightsaber is hardly a natural weapon.
Also, when the war was over Palpatine had Anakin shut down the droid army, the Empire does not use droids as mainline troops in the original trilogy, and most of the soldiers we can see don't appear to be clones.
You could argue that Lucas hadn't thought all that stuff up yet, but going just by what is in the movies it seems that the Empire uses the same amount of droid technology as the Republic did.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this better, simply because we were brought to imagine in the original triliogy that vador was incapable of love, and him screaming "noooo" kinda conterdicts that.
I guess I never got that impression about Vader. He seems pretty insistent on reuniting with his son in Empire Strikes Back, and sacrafices his life and the man he had sworn loyalty to in Return of the Jedi to save that son. That seems like love to me.
Inside all that technology, Vader was still a man.
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this better, simply because we were brought to imagine in the original triliogy that vador was incapable of love, and him screaming "noooo" kinda conterdicts that.
I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying?
He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
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When he offered to rule the galaxy side by side with Padme, it added a new depth of meaning to that offer made to Luke in ESB, for me.
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If you ask me Padme was blind and stupid from the beginning. How can she REALLY be surprised by everything that happened when she knew he slaughtered an entire village.
I mean, seriously, is that not a warning sign of some sort?
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quote:I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying?
He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
It shows remorse in the silliest way imaginable. That scene was designed to be emotionally wrenching; instead, I was stifling a laugh. That impassive mask bellowing "NOOOOOOOO" in James Earl Jones' inimitable bass was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, which is a damn shame, considering the greatness of the sequence immediately prior to it.
The best "alternate version" of this scene I've seen suggested came in a thread on another board I frequent:
It starts out the same: Vader is told that he killed Padme, he breaks out of the table while the whole room starts going to shit...but then instead of "NOOOOO!" he just drops down to his knees, head down and fists clenched...the destruction in the room continues and increases in intensity, so that even Sidious is taken aback a little bit. Then things quiet down, and Vader slowly rises to his full height and says, "What is your bidding, my master?" It is evident that with the death of Padme, he has fully abandoned his old life and has nothing left to live for besides service to the Emperor. He is transformed in that moment into the cold, calculating Darth Vader that we meet in ANH.
(Originally posted by Cuckoorex at the Straight Dope)
Now THAT would've sent chills down my back. You get that horrible remorse... and then the transformation to Vader, servant of evil, is complete.
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quote: quote:I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying? He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
************************************************
The best "alternate version" of this scene I've seen suggested came in a thread on another board I frequent: It starts out the same: Vader is told that he killed Padme, he breaks out of the table while the whole room starts going to shit...but then instead of "NOOOOO!" he just drops down to his knees, head down and fists clenched...the destruction in the room continues and increases in intensity, so that even Sidious is taken aback a little bit. Then things quiet down, and Vader slowly rises to his full height and says, "What is your bidding, my master?" It is evident that with the death of Padme, he has fully abandoned his old life and has nothing left to live for besides service to the Emperor. He is transformed in that moment into the cold, calculating Darth Vader that we meet in ANH.
(Originally posted by Cuckoorex at the Straight Dope)
I like this, I also like the version where he responds "good".
My take on the whole him serving Palpatine after "learning" of Padme's death at his hands is by that point he's reached the ultimate in hate: he hates himself. At that point he's pretty much doomed to the dark side and has absolutely nothing left. That would probably be why Palpatine told him that lie.
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Don't forget, it was anikin who loved Padma, not darth vader. Just as anikin would not slaughter tons of children, yet darth vader would.
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And he thinks it's so funny. Idiot.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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In addition to being "Save Padme" bait, it fill in a LOT of questions Episode One left unanswered...and is probably the ONLY explanation we'll ever get for Anakin's "Midichlorian Virgin Birth".
