posted
I just finished reading the novelization yesterday. It's very good. It offers a lot more insight into what every character was thinking, and even answers some questions which weren't addressed in the film.
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I refuse to acknowledge the Maw installation as having any validity in the SW universe. It would legitimize that hack Kevin Anderson.
I like the idea that the building of the second Death Star was staggered with the first. Or that after all the support factories were built, it was easier and quicker to get the second up to snuff. Especially with an Emperor looming over your shoulder to have the primary weapon operational.
I recently started rereading Labyrinth of Evil (as part of a minor trilogy that included ROTS and then a book afterwards- all with GL's approval and with (at least for the first two of the books) access to the scripts), and on the mystery of Syfo-Dias, Yoda basically says this.
Syfo-Dias died about 13 years before ROTS (which would put it just after EpI).
According to the Kaminoans, Syfo-Dias placed the order and Tyrannus provided the clone template.
Syfo-Dias was killed BEFORE the template was provided (answering Obi-Wan's speculation that Syfo-Dias used an alias-Tyrannus- to provide Jedi deniability.
The money trail is impossible to follow.
Yoda's conclusion is that Syfo-Dias may have had a premonition that the republic would need the army. He argues that if they had not stumbled on the army, Dooku would have been able to attack with a monster droid army and they would have had no defense. So it was fortuitous, from their perspective. The only thing they don't know is why Jango had been working for Dooku. Perhaps he had been coopted and introduced to give Dooku some control over the clones.
But we know that Tyrannus WAS Dooku (and Jango had been working for him from the beginning). And that Palpatine DID NOT WANT the separatists to win. He wanted his paper tiger to keep him in power and give him more and more emergency powers.
So it stands to reason that Syfo-Dias was killed by Dooku and then inpersonated for the Kaminoans, all to provide the Republic an army. Then little clues had been left around to point to Kamino. If it hadn't been the dart, it would have been something else. I mean, the record itself was not fully erased. In the archives, gravity's silhoute(sp?) remained, pulling the surrounding planets and starts, even though the source was erased. That seems sloppy. How much you want to bet that if it hadn't been those clues, something else would have happened to let the Republic know they had an army all ready to counter Dooku's?
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I like that explanation, because it seems to jive well with the whole "order 66." It seems to me that the clone troopers' complete lack of hesitation in executing the order hints at some sort of subconscience conditioning. If Sidious and Dooku were responsible for the clone troopers almost from the beginning, it would explain why the clones were so read to pull off the order when it arrived.
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In the book it explains that the clones were trained since birth to execute the order. All they waited for was the person they were trained since birth to follow to give the order: Palpatine.
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They were of course involved at the ground floor, so to speak-Palpatine much more than Dooku, of course, who was always a short-term pawn. I don't think the clones were created with that order in them, though, because Jedi could probably have sensed a latent 'murder me' order.
I think they were trained from birth (and before) to follow perfectly every single order given them by the appropriate person, especially Palpatine.
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I don't think the Jedi would have sensed anything. Yes, they knew what this order was. But I get the impression it did not bother them. They were obedient machines. They do what they're told. Consider Commander Cody's abrupt jump. First, he in a friendly brother in arms manner give Obi-Wan his fallen lightsaber with a joke. The next minute he receives his order and boom! No moral qualm, no hesitation, no crisis of conscience.
Of course, it's possible it was ingrained in them from the Kaminoans. But not necessary. Their being perfect human clones with no questiong makes that superfluous.
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Actually, order 66 is one of the things that the novel sheds some light on. It wasn't really subconscious. I think if you had asked a clone what order 66 was beforehand they would have known (not that they would tell you, of course. And they may not have even known that they would ever have to execute the order). But they were perfect soldiers. As we saw in the movie, Obi-wan and Cody were friends who has worked together many times, but clones are like machines when it comes to orders. There was no hesitation or remorse. In fact, according to the novel, Cody's only regret was that he had just given Obi-wan his lightsaber back just before he got the order to kill him.
As for why the jedi don't sense it, we know that the dark side has muddled their force perception somewhat, and the novels says that it's also because being the perfect soldiers they are, the clones had absolutely no feelings of ill-will, or harmful intent prior to the order being given. They were such blank slates that even jedi couldn't sense that they were hiding something. It was just another order to them. So what IanO said above is pretty much exactly right.
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Wasn't the Maw installation put into one of the Rogue Squadron games by Lucas Works which would infact legitamize it.
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Well, games are as much expanded universe material as books, so that doesn't really elevate the Maw to a new level of canon. But as far as EU continuity goes, lots of stuff from KJA are important parts of the saga. Things like Luke's Jedi academy on Yavin IV and characters like Kyp Durron came from KJA. So if you ignore his stuff, you pretty much have to ignore everything which comes after.
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I think that explanation makes perfect sense, neo-dragon.
I recently was rewatching the prequels. Man the Jedi were so utterly frozen in their mindset, so locked in their ivory tower with their heads in the sand.
Examples:
EpI-
Mace: I do not think the Sith could return without us knowing. (right )
The general irritation at Qui Gon and specifically his desire to train Anakin. Obi-Wan expressed this well in his constant criticism of Qui Gon. After all, Anakin's future was "uncertain." He could have gone either way. But they botched it.
Refusing to let Qui Gon on the council. As it turns out, he was right in his beliefs regarding the Living Force, allowing it to guide him, rather than simply using it as a tool to maintain the status quo and a corrupt government and their own power.
Yoda: Agree with your training Anakin, I do not!
EpII-
Padme (regarding the attempted assination): I think Dooku is behind it. Mace's response: Dooku was a Jedi. It's not it his character.
Jocasta Nu: If it does not exist in the records it does not exist.
Yoda had to get the children to figure out the mystery of missing Kamino. Even then, Obi Wan had trouble wrapping his head around that, though he was the most progressive of Jedis.
When Obi-Wan brought his concerns about Anakin's suitability to guard Padme to Yoda and Mace, Mace brushed him off. Yoda criticized Obi-Wan's own "arrogance" in questions his 'exalted' opinion. "Arrogance, a trait even older Jedi are showing, questioning the council."
EpIII-
Mace: I don't trust Anakin.
Even when Anakin betrays someone that, too him, has only ever been a friend a mentor, to do the right thing, Mace only says, "If your right, you've earned my trust." Excuse me? Earned? What does this kid have to do?
Yoda writes Anakin off like that. No attempt is made to reach him.
Yoda gives up. There was still more fight in him and the Emperor. But he just runs away into exile. ---
Honestly, I believe that Anakin was the Chosen One and if Qui Gon had lived, Anakin would have lived up to that potential, showing how to both use the force and be used by it, to be in the Living Force. Their cutting themselves off from the universe lost them the ability to see and to be guided by the force.
The Jedi as a whole (not-withstanding Obi-Wan's best attempts to reach him) botched it and made Anakin more vulnerable to teachings that were based in "Passion," i.e. the Sith.
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I think you're pretty much spot on, IanO, and that it's absolutely deliberate on Lucas's part.
I do get the impression that both Yoda and Obi-Wan learn this lesson during exile, and I think that explains why neither one thought they could take a direct hand in the battle. I mean, it's pretty much a given that Yoda could take out Vader early on, right? Set an ambush when he's separated from the Emperor and take him out, then collect Obi-Wan and take on Palpatine. But they wait 18 years, allowing whole planets to be wiped out. I think they realized that even using their power that way wouldn't remove the Dark Side from play and might end up serving its purpose.
And in the other thread, when I said "unifying force," "living force" is what I was thining of.
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I do believe the term "Unifying Force" is used, at the very least in Labyrinth of Evil. I just read it last night and noticed it. I think that as Obi-Wan got older, he began to see the wisdom of Qui Gon's outlook more clearly.
I just always laughed at the criticims of EpII in regard to lost Kamino. "How can they not think the archives were tampered with? GL messed up." I think the point was exactly how myopic the Jedi were. It's not like we haven't seen the same in our own history before.
edit to add:
I think both Obi-Wan and Yoda learned quite a bit from Qui Gon over the intervening 19 years. Enough that Yoda's teachings to Luke are remarkably similary to what Qui-Gon always said. Listen to the force, let it be your ally, be attuned to it and let it guide you as much as you use it.
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That's the name of the final New Jedi Order book. "Living force" is definitely what I was trying to remember.
Also, remember the Jedi seriously considered siezing control of the Senate if Palpatine didn't relinquish his powers - before they knew he was a Sith Lord.
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Yup. So much for their adherence to the law. They obviously saw themselves as above the law.
Or Yoda's stupid chain of reasoning that said fear lead to the dark side. That is not necessariliy an absolute law. Fear of loss CAN do that if not dealt with properly. But by ignoring it or cutting it off, they let it fester in Anakin until it became Palpatine's tool.
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Yes. Another very cool part of the Eps III novel is when it gives insight into what Yoda was thinking as he fought, and realized that he couldn't beat, Sidious. He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood. It all ties into the post-RotJ novels in which we see that Luke's Jedi order is very different than Yoda's. That's exactly what Yoda wanted. The jedi needed to evolve like the Sith did.
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Cool. Will read it next. And am looking forward to Luceno's next book:
"At the moment I'm working on a book that will form a loose trilogy with Labyrinth of Evil and Matt Stover's adaptation of Revenge of the Sith. Focusing on Darths Vader and Sidious, along with a band of Jedi that survives the events depicted in the film, Star Wars: Dark Lord begins before Revenge ends, and takes place over the course of the subsequent month or two."
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quote: He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood.
Cool's not a word I would use to describe this. "Unlikely" is one I would choose.
He did a lot of objecting to Luke if it was all part of his plan. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Yoda's objections were obviously just him being a bit stubborn and maybe even nervous. He obviously intended to train Luke all along, he didn't really have a choice. It's like when a young child is told to take his medicine, but he objects. If the kid is smart, he knows that the medicine is good for him, and he knows that he's going to wind up taking it, but there's that rebellious streak that likes to put up a fight. That's how I always viewed Yoda's objections, since the first time I saw ESB.
In the RotS novel, it was Yoda who told Obi-wan to simply watch Luke, and not train him until the time seemed right. But after over 20 years of hiding from Vader, and contemplating just how wrong things went with Anakin, it's understandable that when the time came even Yoda would be a bit hesitant to train his son, especially when Luke failed his little patience test. I don't find it "unlikely" that his resolve may have wavered a little in 20 years, and it's not like it took very much 'convincing' to change his mind.
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'Cool' was in reference to the fact that the novelization backs up my speculations regarding the Jedi's myopic point of view, both in practice and training and their role in the rise of the Sith and the loss of Anakin.
And despite the fact that Yoda objected to Luke (which, keep in mind, could have simply been part of a test to see if Luke was ready for the commitment) his training of Luke was much more fluid and less mentally rigid (what we saw of it, anyway) than what we see of the Jedi in the prequels.
Again and again Yoda told Luke to look past his preconceptions and 'unlearn' what he had learned. In retrospect, this sounds like what he had learned the hard way.
Now obviously, I know GL didn't have this all planned out when EpV was made. I don't think he had worked out the mechanism of how the Republic fell or the extreme ivory tower conservatism of the Jedi and how it contributed. Even in the prequels, some of his social and historical understanding is flawed. So it's no wonder that 20 years ago, none of this was there or planned for.
But despite all that, his characterization of Yoda and the Jedi in the prequels dovetail nicely with that of EpV. Yoda has obviously learned the hard lesson the Sith have taught him. But even then, that doesn't mean it's easy to apply in practice, especially when the moment is finally at hand to train the son of the man who betrayed the Jedi. If Anakin's age (and passion-fear) posed a problem that, in the end, partially led to his going to the dark side, how much more so Luke's 'abridged' instruction and his later harrying off to save his friends. And, as I said, he might have also been testing Luke's resolve.
In then end, I think the result is a rather cohesive whole, at least in that regard. Sure there are inconsistancies (with one major one) and a few minor ommissions. But that's to be expected with the way GL made them. But still, in regard to the failure of the Jedi and Yoda's role, I think the portrayal is very well done.
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Yes. Another very cool part of the Eps III novel is when it gives insight into what Yoda was thinking as he fought, and realized that he couldn't beat, Sidious. He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood. It all ties into the post-RotJ novels in which we see that Luke's Jedi order is very different than Yoda's. That's exactly what Yoda wanted. The jedi needed to evolve like the Sith did.
At one point in the original trilogy, doesn't Yoda basically tell Luke to have children? That's a pretty extreme departure from earlier Jedi practices.
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Not to my knowledge. Of course, it is implied, as Luke is not the last of the old but the first of the new. But I cannot recall Yoda or Ben ever saying this.
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Ben said it the last time he ever appeared to Luke, 5 years after RotJ in the novel "Heir to the Empire". It may not be from the movies, but I think it's a pretty accurate statement. Yoda simply told Luke to pass on what he'd learned.
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From Dooku's POV we learn Syfo-Dias had been a Jedi and acquaintance of Dooku who could partially see where the Sith darkness was leading. Dooku's had also noticed it, the Jedi complacency and unwillingness to demand reform in the republic. They became so fixated on the Chosen One to fix things that they didn't act themselves. Dooku had already an interest in Darker matters because of the narrow-mindedness of the Jedi. It bugged him that others, like Syfo-Dias could see it but didn't have the courage to confront it openly.
At one point Syfo-Dias contacted the Kaminoans for a clone army, forseeing a need. But by then, Dooku had already been approached by Palpatine and he saw they had begun to share a similar outlook to remaking the galaxy. The event that sealed him as a Sith was the necessary murder of Syfo-Dias. Sidious wanted the army known about only at the right time.
If I recall correctly from a magazine interview with Luceno, the Syfo-Dias mystery was one of the items he personally discussed with GL since GL didn't/wouldn't have time to explain it in the movies. I can look for confirmation on that, but assuming it's true, that is the final explanation of the Syfo-Dias mystery.
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I'm also reading the novel right now (over halfway done) and it's awesome. A lot of the stupid dialogue is fixed, and it really allows you to get into the characters' heads and adds a lot to the story. I just wanted to point out something I found in there. Earlier on people were speculating that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and I just wanted to point out that in the book, Palpatine flat-out tells Anakin that he was, and that Palpatine killed him after learning all of his power from him. So no more speculation necessary on that part, you guys were right.
Also, one other thingthat I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on, what's your take on the supposed "political commentary" in this movie? The whole "only a Sith deals in absolutes" line and some other parts do seem to be fairly obvious jabs at the Bush administration, but there are other parts of the movie that flat-out contradict that interpretation of it. For instance, earlier in the movie, Palpatine is the one telling Anakin to look at things in a more relativistic manner. There are other bits in the movie that make it seem like he's trying to get across an anti-war message, but those are also contradicted by other events. So is Lucas a lot more nuanced than we give him credit for, and there wasn't supposed to be any overt political commentary, or did that other stuff sneak in in spite of him? What does everybody think?
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So far I've only watched the deleted scenes. I really think they should've kept at least one concerning the organization of the Rebel Alliance. It would've made Padme a little less useless in the movie.
General Grievous's backstory is at least partially found in the Clone Wars DVDs. I can't help you with the rest.
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I think that was my biggest Padme complaint. Her character turn around from harda** senator to whiny pregnant woman was instantaneous, and seemed totally off to me.
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Q: "What happened to Anakin's eye (there's a vertical scar above and below his right eye)?"
A: Badass cliche #4. Scars through the eye make you look really tough!
The Clone Wars cartoons were awesome. They answer a few questions but raise one big one: Why is Animated General Grievous so fearsome when CGI General Grievous is a total wuss?
quote:The Clone Wars cartoons were awesome. They answer a few questions but raise one big one: Why is Animated General Grievous so fearsome when CGI General Grievous is a total wuss?
I haven't seen the Clone Wars cartoons, but I think I can answer the question. In the cartoons Greivous was facing other animated characters. In Revenge of the Sith he was fighting actual people, and thus his imaginary powers were useless.
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The Clone Wars cartoon was cool. But it was very over-the-top.
I mean, Mace Windu takes out an ENTIRE army of droids, without a lightsaber, and all he suffers are some ragged clothes. And he flies.
Grievious was the same. In ROTS (while I thought his hacking was lame, GL's desire was to emphasize how weak he was internally and to prefigure the iron-lung bound Darth Vader) he had already killed many Jedi off-screen and thus had a collection of lightsabers. One deleted scene shows him casually killing Jedi Master Shaak Ti. But the Clone Wars cartoon ramped everyone up to be much more powerful than they ever were or were intended to be.
Padme had some pretty good deleted scenes in ROTS, with the formation of the rebel alliance that made her more than the pregnant woman. But ultimately, GL wanted the focus on Anakin and his fall. Personally, I don't think that reasoning is all that great, though.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: So, back from the dead.
I was watching ep. III and I had some questions. They may have been answered in this thread, but I'm too lazy to reread. So here they are:
What happened to Anakin's eye (there's a vertical scar above and below his right eye)? Is that from the trials?
Where does the backstory involving General Grievous take place?
Who wrote the novelization of ep. III (this one I can actually handle on my own)? I understand it gave a lot of backstory/motivations.
Why does Lucas suck so badly at dialogue?
Just kidding on the last one. That's all for now. Anybody watch the special features?
I haven't read any of the clone wars era expanded universe novels, but I know that some of them feature Grievous, and probably tell you a bit about his backstory. He's also in the Clone Wars animated series. Anakin's scar is probably explained in the novels as well. The novelization is by Matthew Stover. In my opinion, it's not just a good novelization, or a good Star Wars novel, it's a pretty good book, period. Stover has also written a couple of Star Wars expanded universe novels. I've read one of them, and it was also pretty good. He has a knack for making Star Wars seem more real, and really getting inside the character's heads. Why is Lucas so bad at dialogue? I wish I knew. Ususally I can overlook it because I'm such a fan of the saga, and there are some good lines (mostly in the original trilogy though), but that one conversation between Anakin and Padme when they talked about being blinded by love makes me laugh at how unnatural it sounds every time. Actually, pretty much all of Padme's dialogue in RotS was lame. She's better off being seen and not heard in that movie.
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In one of the clone wars books, Asaj Ventriss (the bald chick in the Clone Wars Cartoons vol 1) gave him the scar.
RoTS the novel was great, as was Labyrinth of Evil, by Luceno.
On a side note, Tatooine Ghost...hmmm....had such great potential. Leia (a few years after ep VI)still can't stand the fact that she is Vader's daughter. She hates him and the person he was and wants nothing to do with him. And she fears having children because of the potential of loosing another Vader on the universe. While trying to get a secret code in a painting that could expose a number of New Republic operatives in imperial space, they end up on Tatooine. There, she comes across Kitster (Anakin's friend from Ep I) as well as a number of others who knew him back then. And he wasn't a monster (or has Han put it, "You keep waiting for the stories of how he strapped thermal detonators to Bantha's tails.") Later, she finds Shmi's journal to Anakin and learns of her death and how Anakin reacted. In all, it potentially could have a been a great novel, with so many things occuring that seemed just right, like their finding the place where Shmi died and Anakin first fell.
Too bad the execution ranged from fairly good to unbelievable and even ridiculous at times. The characters display that same range, sometimes great, sometimes so unbelievably out of character with themselves (or with anyone, for that matter).
I've half a mind to rewrite it for myself just so it can exist, because it SHOULD exist. We should see how Leia (since Luke already had) is able to reconcile to two Anakins and what she learns from it. Because this is my favorite part of the Hexology. The fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. And I want someone who was hostile toward him as Vader to make the journey backward and, at least, understand him and the tragedy that was his life. Not to excuse, but to understand.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: The Clone Wars cartoon was cool. But it was very over-the-top.
Amen. I hadn't seen The Clone Wars before Episode III, so I had no unrealistic expectations of what Grievous should be like. I was just fine with him.
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I saw the Clone Wars before RotS, but I knew that Grievous would be toned down in the movie, so I wasn't disappointed. I mean, look at Mace fighting the droid army. It was obvious that the cartoon exaggerated character's abilities in order to make for more exciting action sequences. That's not a criticism, by the way. It was a great series.
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