posted
Watched the first Star Wars movie again today, for the first time in many years, just to see if watching the three prequels would make a difference.
Wow, the acting is pretty wooden there, too... OK, in comparison, I have to admit the prequel acting/plots are right up there in quality, although I'd rather a loftier goal had been chosen.
But there are some differences that, for me, still make the first set more fun to watch, flaws and all. First, I like the characters. Iconic but fun. And while the dialogue ain't Shakespeare, look how many quotable lines are in just the first movie.
Quick: name a quote from Episode I. Besides "I've got a bad feeling about this," I mean. Did you think of anything besides some sad Jar-Jar lines?
Turns out Darth was a pretty melodramatic, cliche-ridden character back then, too, and the cheesy closing of RotS fits right in with the way he acts in "A New Hope."
Ah well. A fun series, and I look forward to watching 'em all in a row.
For those who were peeved at me ripping apart RotS, I noticed a major mistake in A New Hope I hadn't thought of before. Not really a plot hole, just a bad judgement call.
The Death Star is approaching the rebel's moon from around the planet. There's seven minutes efore the moon is in range, which is what gives the rebel fighters time to do their long, drawn out battle. I was wondering why the Star didn't launch, say, a hundred TIE fighters instead of just four or five, but the Death Star was still under construction and maybe they weren't all out of the bubble wrap yet.
My question is: why go around the planet?
This is the Death Star, man. They want to strike terror in the hearfts of the rebels and the rest of the system anyway, right? Just blast the damn planet. Gets it out of the way, plus it makes the entire contingent on the moon wet themselves. If it takes a little while to recharge the batteries, no worries. Good things are not going to happen to the moon if its planet is gone.
The Death Star wimped out. Going around stuff. No wonder the Empire fell.
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quote:Quick: name a quote from Episode I. Besides "I've got a bad feeling about this," I mean. Did you think of anything besides some sad Jar-Jar lines?
"Yippee!" "I'll try spinning, that's a neat trick!" "This is tense!" -- Future Sith Lord, Anakin Skywalker
You're right...
* * *
IIRC, Endor was a gas giant, so I blasting it might not have worked. Also, the Death Star might've needed to charge up or something. *shrug*
posted
So fire through the planet and nail the moon. They got cocky, that's all I can say.
Also, the thrill of watching the lightsaber duel is kinda gone now. After watching three movies of ninja-esque Jedis, the dramatic battle between Kenobi and Vader looks like two old, drunken men slugging it out in front of a bar.
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This is the Death Star, man. They want to strike terror in the hearfts of the rebels and the rest of the system anyway, right? Just blast the damn planet. Gets it out of the way, plus it makes the entire contingent on the moon wet themselves.
This question was recently answered on Starwars.com, though it looks like the Ask the Jedi Council page has been taken down. Anyway, the answer is that while the Death Star is perfectly capable of taking out a small, rocky planet, it's not so good at blowing up gas giants like Yavin IV.
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posted
Pfft. Why does Leia say (in RotJ) she remembers her mother, when her mother died in childbirth?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Why does Leia say (in RotJ) she remembers her mother, when her mother died in childbirth?
Becuase she did, as a baby, get to see her mother before her mother died. Which would be why her memories are very vague and fuzzy. But it IS possible to remember things from that early, and she DOES have some force ability. So *shrug* there ya go.
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Wicked sense of humor from the writer knowing that fans and not-fans would rip it to shreds.
C'mon, Glenn! Some people claim to remember things from hundreds of lives earlier - why can't Leia remember mommy? They were supposedly separated at birth, were they not? Maybe Padme had a lingering disease that lasted until Leia was about 2 or so . . .
posted
Maybe she was talking about her adoptive mother. I have no idea if this question is actually answered in the Extended Universe (Oh, who am I kidding, of course it's answered, but I don't know the answer because I've only seen the movies) but when did the Organa lady die? Was it early in Leia's childhood?
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posted
Leia says "she was very beautiful. Very kind, but sad..." Kind implies that she witnessed some actions/words of her mother. Bah... darn plot holes.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: "But it IS possible to remember things from that early"
Umm, no it's not. But even if it was, Luke saw her too.
Yes, it is. +I distinctly recall laying face down on teh carpet in a puddle of milk-puke, and when my mother wiped it and my face clean, I remember a feeling of gratitude. +I had a pre-mediditated temper-tantrum because I liked being held in the burp the baby position over the shoulder. She put me down, and I said to myself, next time, I'm going to cry until she picks me back up. Next time, I cried, but she never came back. +I had a pink and blue mobile that was pretty cool. It used to spin around just out of reach. + There was a very spooky clown picture in my bedroom. +It was fun pulling glasses off my grandpa's face.
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quote:Maybe she was talking about her adoptive mother.
This has already been posed in the ROTS: Spoilers thread 3 or 4 times, and disproved each time. Do I need to go find the damned script to ROTJ and find and bold where Luke says "Real mother"?
quote:Umm, no it's not. But even if it was, Luke saw her too.
Yes, it is. Even in RL there are some people who remember that far back, if vaguely and blurrily. Its rare but it happens. And we're talking about two kids strong with the force here, Luke and Leia. So its entirely possible that Leia remembers that one look before Padme died. It's also entirely possible that Leia remembers it and Luke doesn't. Memory and the force manifests is different in different people, even in twins.
Really this is not something that bothered me at all from the movie. It seems extremely nitpicky that everyone is jumping on it like this. This is not anywhere near the biggest plot hole in the movie. Hell it's not really even a flaw or plot hole at ALL. Go pick at the real problems Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
It bothers me because for me it is a really important part of RotJ, and emotional too. I don't think it's nitpicky...it's comes up often because it was important for the movies.
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posted
Do we know Leia knows she's adopted? If Organna remarried, but she thought she was the daughter of Organna and his first wife, then it makes sense.
Yes, repost, but I want to get this in both parts of the discussion.
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posted
I think that's making things unnecessarily complicated, Dag.
It seems to me that the answer is simple: Lucas probably originally intended that Luke and Leia's mother went into hiding shortly after getting pregnant, and then she died when Leia was young. This explains why Vader didn't know there were two children.
*SPOILERS*
But that doesn't make for an interesting movie. Imagine if Padme had been hidden away when she was only a month or two along. You don't have Anakin's fear of losing her to drive him, you don't have the confrontation where he turns on her, and you don't have the twins' birth and Padme's death.
It's more interesting this way, but then it seems to contradict Return of the Jedi. But there are already inconsistencies in the movies, so I don't think it's that big of a deal.
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posted
You don't think it would have been interesting if Padme had been at the table when Yoda and Obi-Wan were deciding what to do with the children. She knowing what had become of Anakin, realising she had to go into a hiding AND take only one of her children with her?
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posted
Leia knew she was adopted. And I don't think the EU ever covers what happened to her adopted mother. I assume she died with Bail when Alderaan was destroyed.
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posted
She knew she was adopted. Obviously it was written before the script for Episode III was written, but that's not a fun answer.
I've heard speculation that visions of the past were Leia's Force powers manifesting, the way that Luke got premonitions of the future.
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posted
Lucas didn't think episodes I through III would ever be made when he did VI. I'm guessing. Um. I knew a woman who claimed she could remember something that happened when she could stand but not walk. My memories don't start until age 2.
Maybe Leia had pictures of her mom. Sorry if this was posted in the other thread. I mean, you should feel flattered that of the many threads on ROTS I broke down and read yours. On the other hand, it was probably due to the manageable number of replies.
P.S. Maybe Luke was more hung up on his lack of Father, where Leia was more hung up on her dead mother. At least earlier in her life, like before we meet her.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
"I've heard speculation that visions of the past were Leia's Force powers manifesting, the way that Luke got premonitions of the future."
Or Lucas just screwed up. I think there's strong evidence that in early concepts of the timeline, Anakin's wife left him before her children were born, and she died some time later. Especially since I think it's obvious that Obi-Wan and Anakin were both considerably older at the time of Luke's birth than we see in the prequels.
An option I prefer, actually, is to think that Anakin remained married to Padme after the rise of Empire and his "birth" as Darth Vader, and that she stayed with him -- and bore his children -- out of terror and abuse, but managed to ditch him shortly before their birth. This gives us a few more years to kill off and discredit all the Jedi, too.
-------
And no, it's pretty much impossible to vividly remember any event before age three. It would really surprise most of the neuroscientists I know to discover that anyone on this thread claiming to have such memories hadn't just invented them.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
That's cheating. The trick is to convincingly explain conflicts within the framework.
Otherwise, Lucas publicly stated a while back that the idea of Vader being Luke's father belonged to screenwriter Leigh Bracket. Lucas may have had the general themes, but he didn't have a detailed story in mind from day one. Good marketing to say he did, though.
Luke had premonitions of the future when he "saw" his friend sin trouble in the cloud cities. Yoda tried to convince him not to go but he did anyway.
Anyone notice that the only times anyone really succeeded in the most of the movies was by ignoring Yoda's advice?
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posted
In the second trilogy, Yoda's advice and guidance were generally well-meaning but wrong. In the OT, though, Yoda's advice about not going was spot-on. It was only a fluke, really, that things turned out the way they did. Not just Vader telling Luke about his parentage, but also Luke viewing it the way he did-as a plea for salvation.
As it turned out, Luke lost his hand, was completely beaten, and managed not to find himself imprisoned on the way to the Emperor by the skin of his teeth.
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quote:An option I prefer, actually, is to think that Anakin remained married to Padme after the rise of Empire and his "birth" as Darth Vader, and that she stayed with him -- and bore his children -- out of terror and abuse, but managed to ditch him shortly before their birth. This gives us a few more years to kill off and discredit all the Jedi, too.
Sometimes, Tom's just so right, :sigh:.
quote:As it turned out, Luke lost his hand, was completely beaten, and managed not to find himself imprisoned on the way to the Emperor by the skin of his teeth.
He didn't really save his friends, either. They had to put their escape on hiatus to come back and save _him_.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It would really surprise most of the neuroscientists I know to discover that anyone on this thread claiming to have such memories hadn't just invented them.
Put them in contact with me. I'll submit to polygraph. I have memories of infancy.
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:And no, it's pretty much impossible to vividly remember any event before age three. It would really surprise most of the neuroscientists I know to discover that anyone on this thread claiming to have such memories hadn't just invented them.
I think the line Leia says in response to "Do you remember your mother" is, "A little. Feelings, images mainly." [Not actual quotes from the movie, just from memory]
Not what I'd call vivid remembrance.
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posted
If we assume that Leia has some Force-type powers enabling her to remember things from her post-birth moments, then the remembering her "real" mother line isn't necessarily wonky. Padme was a queen, and then a senator -- there were undoubtedly pictures and videos of her by the score, which Bail Organa could undoubtedly access and show to his adoptive daughter. Once Leia knew what her mother looked like, it's possible that the memory of seeing her mother came back to her. And the "kind" comment could have been from reading about her history.
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posted
"Padme was a queen, and then a senator -- there were undoubtedly pictures and videos of her by the score, which Bail Organa could undoubtedly access and show to his adoptive daughter."
Why would he do that? It seems like it would put her life in mortal danger for no real reason. "Here's your mother, the famous Padme Amidala. She was a wonderful woman. Oh, and incidentally, the guy she married goes by the name Darth Vader nowadays. If you ever run into him, don't let on."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "I have memories of infancy."
Oh, I don't doubt that you believe you do. But I'm also certain you invented them.
I had 69 posts when I posted what you quoted, and of those 69, probably 50 of them are in the lyrics thread, and another 5 in the relativity thread, 2 in a short-lived thread on the boot camp, 2 in another short-lived thread on the boot camp, and probably 5 in one of the star trek threads. That leaves about 5 on the rest of the hatrack. Why on earth would I come to this thread and start posting lies to kids who weren't even born until I'd seen Star Wars over fifty times?
You know nothing about me, my education, my IQ, or my reputation in industry.
If you want to call me a liar, come out and say it, but you'd better be able to back it up with facts, because my mother can corroborate my memories of the first time I walked.
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posted
Hiroshima, take a deep breath. I seriously doubt Tom is calling you a liar. Rather, he is saying that while you think you remember those events, what you actually remember is being TOLD about them -- so many times that you think you actually remember the original incident.
I know I have memories like that.
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posted
I too have similar "memories" of my early youth, Hiroshima. It's pretty common for people to invent memories of this sort based on their imagination and family histories.
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I was cruising along the couch, and my mother was in another room. There was a toy across the room, but cruising along the furniture was much farther than walking directly across to it. (I didn't know at the time, but I had reasoned out that much of the Pythagorean theorem.)
I looked at a table near the toy. I wasn't sure if I would make it, or if I would fall and hit my face on the table, but I wanted so bad to walk to that toy. I stared at the table until I got up the nerve to go for it. The worst that could happen was that I'd hit my face on the table, right? It would hurt, but it would go away.
When I finally got my nerve up, I held my breath and fell forward, putting one foot in front of the other until I caught the table with both my hands. That was SO cool! I was walking! Why was I so afraid? I had to show mommy! I was about to call for her, but she spoiled my surprise by calling out to my father, "He's Walking!" That ruined the moment for me.
I never once discussed this with either parent until I was 35 years old, and I brought the subject up with my mother. I've had this memory as long as I can remember.
Who told me about it? There was NOBODY else in the room for the first half of this event. I know, I checked. It was a huge accomplishment in my life--why wouldn't I remember it? My mother confirms the last half...the toy, the table, and calling for my father.
It was also fun balancing my heavy head on my weak neck. I thought it was funny when I moved it too far to the side and it flopped over. Somebody always held my head up after that, not knowing that I was doing it on purpose.
Did you know that you can stick your head through the bars of your crib? You can get out that way, but the problem is, it REALLY hurts your ears when you pull your head back inside if you decide not to go. I just wanted to see if my head would fit. Bars were four inches apart in those days.
It's fun to put your fingers into your mouth. I don't know why.
Did you know that I now have these funny little hard spots on my lower gum? I don't know what they are, but they weren't there yesterday. They're kind of sharp, but I still like running my tongue over them.
The light green baby food tastes like %&*^%.
I like when my bottle is almost empty because it makes a funny sound.
How does mommy know when my diaper is messy? I can't smell anything.
This carseat is so uncomfortable. I used to fit here without my legs going up the back of the bench seat. It used to be so comfortable.
Whenever we go for a ride in the car, there are all these weird-looking animals on the road with us. I wonder why they don't come close to our car, and why they don't bite?
TD: I've never discussed any of this with anyone until I was well into my lae twenties, yet I remember all of these events, and have always remembered these events--even when I was in grade school. Believe what you want because it's IMPOSSIBLE to remember anything that happens when you are that young? And no, I don't remember being born.
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quote:P.S. Maybe Luke was more hung up on his lack of Father, where Leia was more hung up on her dead mother. At least earlier in her life, like before we meet her.
Besides, Luke looks (kinda) like their dad and Leia looks (kinda) like their mom.
Not to bring this back on topic or anything...
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Too bad a polygraph can't measure neurological development, neh?
Particularly development that happened many years ago.....
According to all KNOWN science, though, TomD is right. Also, according to most accepted psychological theories, his explanation of how you got those memories is probably spot on, even if we can't figure out where you got those "memories" from.
Not to say you are lying...there is no doubt that you think those are real memories...
But if they were, that would fly in the face of everything we have learned of developmental psychology and neuroscience.
As far as the movie stuff goes, I would say that that quote can be made to fit somehow, but it will bulge at the seams no matter how you try to squeeze it in. I would just chalk it up to them both being confused about their parentage.
Remember that all Leia really recalled were "images and feelings". Maybe all she has is a vague recollection of some brief telepathic connection with Padme's mind before she dies. Luke may have had a similar connection and never realized it. Padme's last words were stating that there was still good in Anakin. This same idea seems to be what drives Luke to save him decades later. Maybe the certainty that there was still good in Vader came from what he sensed in his mother's mind as he was born. So both twins "knew" their mother just before she died. Luke remembered his mother's feelings about Anakin, and Leia remembered her mother herself, though only vaguely.
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Look, feel free to spread the apologisms around as much as you want, but a clear look at the conversation between Luke and Leia will reveal that Leia thought she knew her mother at least a little bit.
She says that her mother died when she was 'very young.' NOT in childbirth, or when Leia was born. She says that she was beautiful, kind, and sad. Beautiful, one can get by looking; kind and sad, one has to experience.
Padme hadn't even HELD Leia before she died, as far as I could tell.
GL screwed up-- it is far more plausible to believe this than to believe the other theories being thrown around.
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posted
Scott R, we all know that it's a plot hole, just like we all know that Star Wars is make-believe, but the fun is trying to come up with clever ways to fill the plot holes. It's not even the first plot hole in Star Wars, just one of the more obvious ones.
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posted
This is a good place to finally get this question answered - why does it appear that Grand Moff Tarkin is Vader's boss in ANH? I could imagine Leia saying the leash line just to annoy Vader, but there are other indications in the movie.
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