New York, May. 26, 2005 (CNA) - Shareholders in the media giant, Viacom, will be greeted by many unhappy faces as they enter a meeting at New York’s Marriot Marquis Hotel this afternoon.
William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, an organization for religious and civil rights, is leading a charge, railing against the company, and their subsidiary, Showtime, for airing a program which they call “a full frontal assault” on the late Mother Teresa and the Catholic Church.
The program, “Holier than thou”, starring magician entertainers Penn and Teller, paints Mother Theresa and her Sisters of Charity as “cruel, exploitative, self-serving nun[s] who ripped off the poor,” according to Donohue.
“In the 12 years that I have been president of the Catholic League,” he wrote yesterday, “I have never witnessed a more vicious attack on Catholicism than what appeared this week on the Showtime program, ‘Penn and Teller.’ The episode, ‘Holier Than Thou,’ was a frontal assault on Mother Teresa and her order of nuns, Missionaries of Charity (as well as Gandhi and the Dali Lama).”
In the episode, says Donohue, “We are told that Mother Teresa intentionally let the poor suffer, providing neither beds nor bathroom facilities. ‘She had the f—king coin and pissed it away on nunneries,’ says Penn. As for the nuns who worked with Mother Teresa, they are referred to as ‘f—king c—ts.’”
Now, this sort of thing I've almost come to expect. There's a lot of people who don't like the Catholic Church.
But to call Mother Teresa such names on national TV? Have they gone mad?
<Edited thread title -- blanked out inside thread is ok thus far, but subject is unavoidable to people uninterested in the topic. --PJ>
<Sorry about that, Pop and everyone. It was late and my judgment was probably not in top shape.)
posted
Well, namecalling isn't very nice, to be sure; but the substance of their charges is pretty accurate.
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posted
These charges aren't new by any means. Since she operated in a very poor section of Calcutta, very few people got a good sense of what she actually did.
It's clear that she truly lived her vow of poverty, and worked hard under difficult conditions. But there was a very bizzarre twist to her stated mission. She helped people die by giving them food and a bed to lie in, but no medical care even when there condition could have been cured with simple antibiotics or made comfortable with painkillers.
I haven't seen the Penn and Teller show, but I assume they mention the "Jesus is kissing you" quote.
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posted
There were a lot of people around in India who didn't think she deserved the saintly reputation she had.
I did some work for a human rights organisation in New Dehli in 1999 - and while they certainly weren't calling Mother Teresa a ****, most of the workers didn't think she was a saint by any means.
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posted
Huh. I have never heard anything bad about her before now. If she didn't give people medical care, I wonder what her motivation for that was.
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posted
Why is Penn and Teller doing a show about Mother Teresa?
Even if all their charges are true, using the F-C phrase is derogatory towards all women. I will not watch that show.
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posted
I remember reading about her many years ago and it was explained that she started out, as a young nun, in an attempt to ease the suffering of the dying, and to give them dignity. I assume she was mostly working with the Untouchable class.
That was where her work started, rather than saving them, healing them, giving them money, etc. At least in the earlier years. I haven't read much about her since then but I can certainly see how people can get a bad impression. Again, I haven't read anything as an adult to really understand what exactly she was doing or hoping to accomplish once she had more support.
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posted
It reminds me of the guy in the Worthing Chronicles who had powers that could help others and whenever he *didn't* help someone or didn't help to their satisfaction, he was hated, scorned, attacked.
Mother Theresa dedicated her time and strength towards helping others. I figure at worst she didn't help them in the way *they* thought they should be helped. How is that worthy of scorn when she did so much more than most of us?
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posted
Oh, so just like that, Syn, you believe she was a bad person? She could not remain a nun and give out contraceptives, that is a no brainer. As for the rest of it, nobody here has proven she did anything wrong.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: By denying access to contraceptives and antibiotics that were perfectly available.
By denying do you mean she actively prevented people from getting them from other sources or that she failed to provide it through her own charities?
If the latter, I'm perfectly fine with that. People who donate money to her know she is Catholic and therefore her aid would have to follow the teachings of the Church. If she refuse to use that money for contraceptives I'm perfectly fine with that.
Bev, good comparison with Worthing. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Actually, I believe Mother Teresa was referred to as Mother F****** Teresa and the nuns that worked with her were the f*ing C*s.
Just for clarification. Maybe we should get the facts before jumping to the conclusions?
I also hear they weren't just ripping on her, but also on Gandhi and the Dali Lama. Why do people have such a persecution complex?
And, it was a repeat.
Sheesh. Why don't we get up in arms about something important? Anyone want to research Mother Teresa and give us a report?
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posted
*shrug* I figured that if the Missionaries of CHarity were effing C then so was Mother Teresa, being one of said missionaries. Sorry for the confusion.
And while the Mother Teresa was what caught my eye (being the headline) I'm equally baffled about such abuse heaped on Gandhi and the Dalai Lama.
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posted
Well, possibly I overstated the case a little, at least from your viewpoint. I believe she refused to give aid to people who used contraception, though how she would find out I'm sure I don't know. And certainly she preached against it to those who received her 'help', this is standard Catholic practice, after all; I count this as actively hindering people from obtaining them.
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posted
I've seen that show (Penn and Teller's Bull!) and it's in very poor taste. They go out of there way to slander religion of any kind in any way (including shooting a Bible a week after the Quaran scandal).
posted
What I find the saddest is that there are people on here that believe that whatever Penn and teller tell them is true. When did they become newscasters?? I ask myself: is North America so bored that we need to strip one of the most charitable people on the planet of all her dignity for a laugh? Are there that many ignorant people out there that form an opinion without once looking in a history book? Then again history books are a bit skewed...but PEN and TELLER is who you're getting your info from??? "I heard this...I heard that..I was a relief worker and worked nowhere near her-nor did I meet her...but heck, I heard she was a b*tch"...so it must be true if some nameless (or someone who won or simply got nominated for an academy award) says it is. Take south park, they bash everyone, but I'm not offended by that cuz they don't even take themselves seriously-but it's the people who DO take themselves seriously that you kinda gotta watch out for. and yes, I take myself seriously... (haha)
**just as a side note-no, haven't seen the show...no don't intend on seeing the show-cuz they don't deserve the time...so before y'all go saying this that and the other thing...ask yourselves above all else-why did they do the show? For ratings- not to enlighten your mind by any means.
And the Worthing connection-priceless.
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quote: Colonel Singh’s analysis of the evidence leads him to conclude that Gandhi’s ideology was in fact rooted in racial animosity, first against blacks in South Africa and later against whites in India. The author also finds evidence of multiple cover-ups designed to hide Gandhi’s real history, including even collusion to cover up the murder of an American.
You can watch the clip here. You just have to find the 'Holier Than Thou' episode.
quote:Bonus factoids: apparently, the Dalai Lama presided over a rather exploitive caste system prior to his flight from Tibet, a system that employed torture as a means of administrative punishment. Of course, the subsequent rule of the Chinese was much worse. The CIA also funneled over a million dollars to the Dalai Lama in order to fund anti-Chinese resistance forces, which isn't something that I would condemn, yet sits interestingly at odds with his one-size-fits-all pacifism.
posted
Kayla: Well-meaning (I guess) but I said HISTORY BOOKS-not editorials on opinions on history....
oh...and if you know anything about communist china Kayla-don't read their history books. Just a word to the wise.
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posted
You know, I doubt there's ever been anyone that's ever lived that you couldn't make look like a monster if you knew enough about them.
I remember the first time I ever talked to someone who was old enough to remember when Martin Luther King, Jr. was alive. I'd always been taught from elementary school on up what a noble, brave, courageous and selfless individual he was, and how much better the world was for his having lived in it. The first time I ever heard someone who lived through the '60s tell me his story from a different point of view, I was incredibly disillusioned. Was it really possible that he was a racist hatemonger? Why would everyone tell me all these nice things about him, and how was I to deal with the fact that they weren't true?
After a great deal of thought, I finally decided that people are complex creatures, and no one's life can be summed up in as neat a good/evil package as we're often led to believe. Nevertheless, we need heroes. If we don't have stories of near-perfect people, what pattern are we to follow in order to improve our own lives? If you have a child who wants to be a great basketball player, you give him the poster of Michael Jordan making the flying slam dunk, not the one of him missing a free-throw or letting a point slip past him. And if you want your child to be a kind, selfless, moral person, you tell them about Mother Teresa giving her life in the service of others, Martin Luther King, Jr. fighting for equality and understanding, and Gandhi giving up everything he possessed in the quest for a peaceful solution to problems that had been traditionally solved with violence. Whether or not you can debate these facts historically, and when you're talking about flesh-and-blood humans, you always can, there's no denying the unnecessary harm you'll be doing by removing moral models from the lives of people who are trying to be moral themselves. We've got an enexhaustable supply of people whose mistakes we can learn from, and precious few whose stories we can emulate. We need all we can get.
On a related note, I like Penn & Teller. I own most of their magic books, both seasons of Bulls**t on DVD, and I've been a fan of them for decades now. They're funny people, great magicians, and very intelligent. And on a personal note, they're libertarian atheists. I'm nowhere near as extreme as they are, but as a moderately libertarian-ish agnostic, it's nice to see someone famous who I can politically sort of identify with.
However, as much as I like them, I do think they can go overboard sometimes, and this is a perfect example. I don't have a really strong belief in things like The Bible, evolution, or many other religious principles, so I find it amusing to see them explore those subjects from their point of view. However, while I don't see myself as especially religious, I do admire certain people who are. I don't believe that just because I don't find religion useful in my life presently, that this means that anyone who does is automatically an evil moron. I actually admire people who live their lives according to a code of ethics as strict as some religions dictate, provided that they don't do this in a way that negatively influences the lives of non-believers. This is where I differ from Penn & Teller. They belong to the secular humanist religion and have a seething hatred for people whose religion differs from theirs, and that hatred is as caustic as any fanatical Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Although I continute to admire certain of their characteristics, shows like this one (from what I've read about it here) perfectly illustrate where I diverge from them. Although I have great respect for Mother Teresa, I'm fine with differing opinions on her life. But opinions stated in a way that shows such a complete lack of respect, not only for anything good she may ever have tried to do, but for anyone who tries to make their lives better as a result of her example, are completely uncalled for.
posted
Now THAT is the depressing thing... First of all, Penn and Teller being rude towards Mother Teresa. There's no reason for that. Second of all, is there any system or any group of people that is "pure" when it comes to compassion and helping people? Plus there is nothing beautiful about being poor.
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quote:Originally posted by Portabello: Trying to convince somebody not to do X is not hindering them from doing X.
When you are basically the only source of medical information, not to mention moral authority, it is. But whether or not we can agree on this definition, she was trying to convince people to take a path that was demonstrably harmful to them, for religious reasons.
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posted
What? That is uncalled for. I think that Mother Teresa and the sister in Missionaries of Charity have done a tremedous work with helping others. When I lived in Albania my window overlooked the house that the Cathlic church had rented and the sisters from Missionaries of Charity were residing there. The building had 5 bedrooms and all of the 5 bedrooms were filled with people that were homeless or that needed help. They were from different religions since most of the Albanians are Muslim you find a lot of muslim being washed and fed by the sisters. They were respected and loved from the community. Nobody ever heard a bad word about the sisters. We appreciated what they did and they tried to encourage the community to also help with the needy as much as possible. I think they are saints and the least that we can do is to show our appreciation for their work instead of using these derogatory remarks.
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posted
If trying to convince somebody to do X is hindering them from doing X, then you are actively hindering me from worshipping as I wish.
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posted
Also, if she was the only source of medical information or moral authority, it's not her fault.
She's no more to blame for not helping them in the proper KoM fashion than the other hundreds of millions of people who also could have done it.
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She was *fundamentally* against abortion, even in the extreme cases where most people are willing to concede it may be necessary - rape, incest, very young girls etc etc.
She also supported Indira Ghandi - very touchy issue in India. Indira Ghandi is viewed by some as one of the worse things that happened to India, and Mother Theresa's public support of her and her government's actions (including a toted idea of forced sterilisation of the poor) angered many people.
Bev, I agree with you by the way.
She did spend her time helping the poor. She also had some very extremist views that were potentially harmful and had some political alliances which were very unpopular. Doesn't mean she was bad, but perhaps she wasn't all good either.
quote:Doesn't mean she was bad, but perhaps she wasn't all good either.
Actually, it doesn't mean that either. It means that she disagreed with you on what is harmful and what is helpful.
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posted
You said "She also had some very extremist views that were potentially harmful" with nothing but your own personal opinion to back it up -- no examples, no arguments as to why they were bad.
From that, all that anybody could conclude is that you have different political views from her.
edit: As far as I could tell, you were talking about not providing birth control.
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posted
She really wasn't, and the thought if her becomming a "Saint" has always been troubling to me.
Not that she didn't do good work, but a lot of people do that kind of work, and are never considered for sainthood.
Nor should they be, IMO.
I don't have a problem with her not providing birth control, although it is one of teh main issues I have with the RC church, which is why I am no longer RC...
I do have a problem with the leevl of "medical care" she provided, because it was not really medical care as we know it. . .and she was capable of having far more modern care provided, but denied it more than once.
As someone said, these issues are nothing new....
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quote:I do have a problem with the leevl of "medical care" she provided, because it was not really medical care as we know it. . .and she was capable of having far more modern care provided, but denied it more than once.
I really don't see why people get upset at her for not providing medical care, when there were hundreds of millions of people on earth that also were not providing that care.
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posted
Ok, I do belive that counselling against abortion for a 14 year old rape victim (as Mother Theresa famously did, saying it would be murder) is potentially harmful.
9 months of being pregnant as a result of a rape at the age 14? - I'm willing to say pyschological harm would probably result.
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posted
"Bad" and "Good" are inherently value judgments, and will come down to personal opinion.
Some things most people agree are "good" but these are social values that can change. Slavery was not always considered "bad", for example.
So yes, my own personal opinion is that some of Mother Teresa's actions were - well, not good. I think bad might be slightly too strong.
Yours may be different - because you have different personal values and opinions. Hence, a value judgment.
I'm not quite sure of your point in
quote: Actually, it doesn't mean that either. It means that she disagreed with you on what is harmful and what is helpful.
You could say that about any statement calling any activity good or bad. So what?
***
My post wasn't really intended to be a "this-is-what-I-think" but rather explaining why the people I worked with in New Dehli thought the way they did.
In my opinion, there was justification for their views. But as it's my opinion anyone is welcome to agree or disagree with it.
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