posted
Simply put, here is the basic question I'm asking.
(note I've rewritten this question 9 times already)
Assume that hell does exist and that there is only one way to get into it, isn't this something I should worry about and keep in mind for the well being of my loved ones?
This question brings up a few others which I'd like to see discussed further.
1. Because this disturbs me does that mean that I'm now afraid of my own beliefs or afraid for those around me? Either way I don't think Christianity is something to be feared, it's a positive influence in my belief. It's when people try to use it to get what they want that things go awry.
2. Is it OK to pick and choose from the Bible what I beleive? Isn't that basically throwing away all respect I would have for myself and my beliefs? How would people take me seriously if I just pick and choose? "Yes, yes, this is true, but forget that other part, that part's crap." It would be interesting to go through history and see if there were any major changes (more then likely politically made) to the Bible for reasons of controling the masses into doing what the ruler/polition wanted. I'd like to believe God would prevent this from happening but Man is failible.
4. I heavily appreciate the "Stop appologizing" comments Bekenn, If I ever seem apologetic in my faith please let me know. I'm just trying to bring this subject up as delicately as possible wihtout alienating anyone. I've taken all your advice to heart
5. I'd still like to address more posts and thank people for supporting me in this endevor. Trying to carry on a civil discussion about religion is hard enough without bringing hell into the mix. This would have completely and utterly failed outright on ANY other forum.
And a few more points I'd like to make.
1. I'm not implying I would get my own TV show and start televangelizing. If I do try and introduce my beliefs into someone's life it will be at a time that I feel it might yeild a positive result for them. I don't want to push people further away.
2. I definately agree that before I should even TRY this I should study and self reflect further. All of you who voiced this are completely right, thanks
3. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL. This is the point of this discussion. I'm not saying that in any way. I'm taking an anti-going-to-hell stance and want the best for everyone.
4. I go to a church called The Vineyard, and a small Methodist church where everyone is pretty much family. Not sure if anyone has heard of the Vineyard churches. I just recently started attending. Basically it's a relatively youth oriented church where there's live (modern) music every service and it's a gathering of people coming together to celebrate their faith, and support each other as family, and accept any who want to join. We explain what our faith means to us and how it has positively affected our lives. This is what I feel most comfortable with and makes the most sense to me. I am in no way a fire and brimstone promoter. Christ preached love and understanding, not fear. If I am ever in the position to help someone I'd take them to this kind of enviroment.
So basically I'm-
Pro-Christ Anti-going-to-Hell Anti-Fire-and-Brimstone preaching Concerned about the well being of everyone's soul and wants bring people to God if I can.
Once again I am not preaching. I'm asking advice and inviting everyone's comments.
Edit- Spelling errors and basic editing. I'm sure I still have quite a number of run on sentances left.
posted
Kreve, have you talked to the minister at either of your churches yet? In particular about the going to hell part of all this? I believe that the Vineyard is a youth oriented outreach of the Methodist church, is your Vineyard congregation associated with your other congregation?
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posted
I was planning on talking about it this sunday with both ministers. As far as I know the Vineyard congregation isn't at all associated with my other congregation, although people in both churches have friends in the other and sometimes frequent the other's congregation and have nothing but good things to say about eachother.
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posted
If you wouldn't consider losing your faith for your friends, don't expect/push them to lose theirs. If you don't believe in Jesus, that's not a lack of belief, it's a different set of beliefs.
I think religion should be a personal thing. I've heard it so many times and I completely agree; faith should be a personal relationship between you and God. Once it gets outside of that, I'm fairly against it.
I'm not that good with history, but would you say that the Crusades were justified in killing so many people with the hope of spreading Christianity? It's a tough question...
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posted
I think most of evangelism doesn't work. Why? Because many times people who think of themselves as evangelists, are not really sharing Christianity. They are making threats. ie: making accusations about a person's character, telling them that they will go to hell, and so forth. In addition, many times they focus on strangers, or make those around them feel like they are being judged.
I think the best way to be an evangelist is to be a true Christian. Follow Christ's example. Be loving to those around you. Don't participate in behaviors that violate Christian morals, but don't criticize those that do. If someone you know is out at a bar and gets wasted, don't criticize them for being drunk, offer to give them a ride home so they don't have to worry about driving impaired. If someone is hurt because the boyfriend that they slept with dumped them, don't criticize them for having sex, give them support to deal with their pain. Let people know the love of Christ through your actions, not through your words.
As for the bible, I would read it...and read commentaries, as well as talking to your minister about questions you might have. It is not something that you should just pick and choose from to form your own version. It also is not something that has changed over the years. There are of course different translations, but if you have learned the languages you actually can still go back to the original Greek and Aramaic if you wish (many people still do).
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posted
I agree with what everyone said about figuring out other people's mindset. If you want to change them, then they have to be receptive. They have to want it.
First I should warn you, as others have about their lack of faith, that I'm an agnostic with heavy atheist tendencies.
With that in mind, if I wanted to convert someone I would show them how great my life is and what I enjoy about it. I would be so friggin' cheerful, so helpful, so nice, so optimistic, and so respectful that they would wonder what kind of antidepressants I was on and if they could get some. After being nice enough and helpful enough, they would probably ask me if they could do anything for me. Then I would say, "Come to church with me, and hang out with me for the day. I'd appreciate the company." Then I'd talk to the minister and some of the parishioners about who I was bringing over. The minister might mention the person during the service, the parishioners might come over to meet and greet the person, perhaps invite them to more functions.
After they're well folded into the community aspect of your faith, then you can slowly talk to them about God and your faith, watching for warning signs that what you're saying is too radical or "out there". If they start looking at the door a lot or giving you crazy looks, back off a bit and let them relax.
Of course, this wouldn't work with me because I have lots of non-christian communities around me all the time and we do help each other and provide support for one another. But I'm sure there are some lonely, depressed souls out there for you to salvage. I think church can definitely be a useful tool to bring people together and give them hope and community.
If you're trying to win people over to your faith from another faith with your fear that they're going to hell, then you better forget it.
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quote:Originally posted by Kreve: Assume that hell does exist and that there is only one way to get into it, isn't this something I should worry about and keep in mind for the well being of my loved ones?
To my mind, absolutely. And it's precisely this point that I think OSC was trying to make in the quote I posted earlier: Sincere evangelism, whatever the merits of the particular methods used, has as its basis the noble desire to help others and should find its motivation in love.
Where most evangelists go wrong is in the failure to remember that love for another person must carry along with it a certain degree of respect -- including respect for that person's current beliefs, and most importantly, his right to choose what to believe and why.
Put another way: you are not responsible for anyone's salvation but your own. (And in your case and mine, we can't really even include our own in that one; our price was paid for by another.)
So*, yes, talk to them if you feel you must, but don't harass them. If they are not free to choose another path, then they're not really free to choose Christ, either.
(Incidentally, if you haven't read Shadow of the Giant yet, do; this very point about the freedom to leave a religion being essential to that religion's validity comes up several times.)
quote:This question brings up a few others which I'd like to see discussed further.
1. Because this disturbs me does that mean that I'm now afraid of my own beliefs or afraid for those around me?
The healthy response would be the latter. It's a manifestation of compassion.
quote:2. Is it OK to pick and choose from the Bible what I beleive? Isn't that basically throwing away all respect I would have for myself and my beliefs?
This is one of the more interesting questions when it comes to Christian belief, and there's certainly no consensus on it. Therefore, what I say should not be treated as gospel; it is only my own opinion, and disagreeing with me on a given point doesn't necessarily make you wrong. Nonetheless, I hope you find it of value:
The Bible is not a single work by any means. It is a collection of stories, histories, essays, poems, prophecies, allegories, and songs. Their collection into a single canon was a long and arduous process; a good reference for that appears here. (Note: that link contains a lot of information that I've only had time for a very casual glance at, so I can't speak for the veracity of all of its contents, but it seems more or less accurate.)
Anyway, an important thing to keep in mind about all of this is that the Bible is a collection that evolved over time before reaching the condition in which we find it today, and humans were involved in every step of the process. (Even today, there remain two accepted canons: the Catholic canon and the Protestant canon, for lack of better categories. Take a look at the Apocrypha for further reference.)
My general approach to this mish-mash is this: Anything presented as a history can more or less be taken at face value, some obvious exceptions being the Genesis creation accounts, which evolved from oral tradition. Genesis actually has two separate creation stories, one told in chapter 1, and the other starting at the second verse of chapter 2, and my own impression is that they were written down separately by at least two different authors and later collected together as part of Genesis.
Arrghh... I'm getting off-topic. Back on track:
As I said earlier, the Bible contains a lot of essays and allegories. Sometimes, the allegories are mistaken for histories (which in my mind is responsible for the wasteful and pointless conflicts we see today between "creationists" and "evolutionists" -- nothing in Genesis or elsewhere contradicts the evolutionary process, and the ongoing arguments only serve to drive people away from Christ). It's important to learn to distinguish between allegories and histories. Genesis 1 is an allegory; it shows, in broad strokes, the order in which things happened in terms that were comprehensible and fun for the people of the time, while also showing God's hand in the process. Judges is a history.
The gospels are also more or less histories, and are our best guides to who Christ is and what he did during his time here. Even the gospels aren't entirely consistent; reference the last words Jesus spoke on the cross as portrayed by each of them. The gospels are human accounts of a divine presence; as such, we can't expect them to be word-for-word accurate (somehow I doubt the disciples took pen to paper immediately every time Jesus said something: "And then, verily, Jesus said 'I must depart with thee, for nature is calling'), and their styles of presentation differ accordingly. When Matthew's gospel recounts Jesus presenting the parable of the mustard seed (starting at Matthew 13:31), I don't expect it to be word-for-word accurate, and it doesn't have to be, so long as all the important beats of the parable and its meaning remain. So when you read "And Jesus said," the words that follow are indeed what he said, but not necessarily precisely how he said it. (I suspect he was a bit longer-winded than the gospels give him credit for.)
Finally, we have those portions of the Bible which I term "essays." Primarily, these consist of the letters of Paul, most of which were written to give encouragement and guidance to the fledgling churches of the day. Some of the material here qualifies as history; that would include the recounting of the events on the road to Damascus, for instance. Much of the rest is simply Paul's take on what it means to be a Christian, along with his suggestions on how to run a church. Paul certainly had authority to speak on these matters, but there's no reason to believe he was perfect (he was human, after all), and his own biases are clearly present in many of his letters. While I happen to agree with Paul in most respects, I certainly believe it is possible to be a Christian without necessarily being a student of Paul. His letters serve as an excellent guide to the early church, and his insights are vast, but there's nothing saying his every opinion was perfect.
quote:4. I heavily appreciate the "Stop appologizing" comments Bekenn, If I ever seem apologetic in my faith please let me know.
I live to serve!
quote:1. I'm not implying I would get my own TV show and start televangelizing. If I do try and introduce my beliefs into someone's life it will be at a time that I feel it might yeild a positive result for them. I don't want to push people further away.
Good.
quote:2. I definately agree that before I should even TRY this I should study and self reflect further. All of you who voiced this are completely right, thanks
You're welcome!
I hope that at least some of this helps, or at the very least was interesting to read.
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quote:Originally posted by Icec0o1: I'm not that good with history, but would you say that the Crusades were justified in killing so many people with the hope of spreading Christianity? It's a tough question...
Here's where we get into the whole seeing orgainized religion as a bad thing and these discussions always turn out interesting. I'm of the belief (and history backs this) that people will do horrible things, with or without religion. It just so happens that,unfortunately, religious people in the past have proven very easy to control in great numbers and in great passion. Although this has also been done without religion involved, a quick and still fresh example would be Natzi Germany. Were the Crusades really about retaking the holy land, converting "heathans"* and benifiting the greater good? (As I'm sure some people might have thought they were) Or was there other modivation by those in a power position such as land, pride, wealth or the promise of more power? The end justifies the means, isn't how I view things, it's the mean that justifies the end. Through compassion you are shown compassion, through understanding you are understood. Being a good person makes the world one better for everyone including yourself.
* Ya know I've never been confortable with that word. It just seems so wrong and condesending calling people that as if they're not people just as valuble as you are.
posted
The reason I asked about talking to your minister is that I was raised United Methodist, and while I am not an expert on the UM theology I don't think the whole "you must believe what we believe or your going to hell" is part of it. In fact, that is one of the problems I had with Christianity in general when I was younger, and I had some conversation with someone who was more studied than I, and had it resolved to my satisfaction. (At the time. It was long enough ago that I honestly can't remember what my satisfaction was.)
Anyway, naturally you can read and interpret the bible on your own, but it's also nice to hear the opinions of people who've spent a lot of time studying and discussing it, and reading the thoughts of people who've studied and discussed it over the last couple thousand years.
I'm glad you're planning on talking to your ministers, but I would suggest setting up a time during the week when you can get together and sit down and talk for a good long while, not just talking about it when you see them Sunday. I suspect that they will probably be able to give you some insight on the fate of your friends and family you don't manage to convert that will make you feel better about the whole thing, and reduce the 'fear' aspect of your motivation. Your church might be different, but in my experience fear was never a huge motivating factor in the Methodist church. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Yes, please make an appointment to talk to the minister during the week. Sunday is a busy time and they might give you a less-than-satisfactory answer simply because they can't focus all their attention on you right at that moment.
Or, more likely, they'll just ask you to come in and spend some time talking about it.
Another piece of advice: If you have a choice, pick a minister who is seminary-trained. This is not a guarantee of a more thorough answer, mind you, but your question and its answer are getting into not just theology but the whole of human history and the history of philosophy about God. If you are interested in reading some great texts, a seminary graduate is going to be of help to you in that regard as well.
Just a thought. If your minister doesn't have that training, I wouldn't say DON'T talk to him or her. I'd just say don't stop there if you're interested in the scholarly discussion and the person you speak with isn't as well versed in it as you'd like.
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quote: 1. Because this disturbs me does that mean that I'm now afraid of my own beliefs or afraid for those around me? Either way I don't think Christianity is something to be feared, it's a positive influence in my belief. It's when people try to use it to get what they want that things go awry.
Judging from the juxtaposition in this paragraph, I'd say the thing that might be bothering you is your own potential to misuse/abuse your beliefs. There's a certain amount of uncertainty built into any faith, and coming to faith as an adult means you also bring baggage with you from how you may have evaluated people of faith in the past.
If this becomes a serious concern for you, my best advice is to observe. Find people who you believe are living a good Christian life as you understand it. If you can build a relationship with them, perhaps you can grow to understand how they do it. In a way, it's sort of like choosing a mentor for yourself. Someone you admire. It's not necessarily a life-long relationship, but it can be. It's not necessarily a formal relationship, but it can be that too. And the reason for it is that people don't live that life unconsciously. So, if you are trying to get there, asking or watching someone who IS doing it is going to show you at least one successful way.
And don't pick the minister. IMHO, there's too much opportunity to say "well, sure, they get PAID to think about God all day, so of course they're the way they are." And then not apply the lessons to your own life. Find someone who works and struggles with the same life issues you do (job, family, etc.) and see if you can't learn a few things from them.
And, as you learn more, get new "mentors" as needed.
quote: 2. Is it OK to pick and choose from the Bible what I beleive? Isn't that basically throwing away all respect I would have for myself and my beliefs? How would people take me seriously if I just pick and choose? "Yes, yes, this is true, but forget that other part, that part's crap." It would be interesting to go through history and see if there were any major changes (more then likely politically made) to the Bible for reasons of controling the masses into doing what the ruler/polition wanted. I'd like to believe God would prevent this from happening but Man is failible.
Last part first -- there WERE "changes" to the Bible, but what the reasons were is open to debate. Some scholars do indeed believe that not including the "Gospel of Thomas" among the 27 canonical books of the New Testament was because it's awfully difficult to run a religion when everyone is told that they contain the divine within them (Elaine Pagels, for example). But really, the history of the determination of the canon is more complex than that. This is what made me think you might want to seek out a minister who is seminary trained to answer your questions, by the way.
Okay, the rest of this question -- anyone who says they DON'T pick and choose from the Bible in addressing specific questions is, at best, being disengenuous. But you asked whether it's "okay" to pick and choose what you believe.
Depends on which group you talk to. I am of the personal opinion that you can't make yourself believe something that you can't understand and agree with both spiritually and intellectually. Others will say that this is the very essence of faith -- to believe without understanding or agreeing.
I figure that God will forgive my reluctance even while marking me off for not being as faithful as I should be. I don't wish to spread this brand of faith to others, however, because it is (seems to me) a hard road to follow. You end up questioning everything all the time. And as you move through life, you also have to revisit the things you thought you knew. All the time.
I'm okay with that because I find it fascinating when I gain new insight.
Perhaps a better approach is to be gentle with yourself. Learn and believe the things you can now and provisionally don't shut out the other stuff. Just file it away for later consideration.
quote: 4. I heavily appreciate the "Stop appologizing" comments Bekenn, If I ever seem apologetic in my faith please let me know. I'm just trying to bring this subject up as delicately as possible wihtout alienating anyone. I've taken all your advice to heart [Smile]
Don't stop being delicate about it. Apologies aren't necessary, but discretion is usually good. You'll know when to be forceful if the need ever arises. Starting out as aggressive and forceful leaves you nowhere to go should you find someone who is interested in a reasonable discussion, no?
Also, the practice of being reasoned and "sober" in discussing religious views is something Christians should be noted for as a rule, not as an exception.
quote: 5. I'd still like to address more posts and thank people for supporting me in this endevor. Trying to carry on a civil discussion about religion is hard enough without bringing hell into the mix. This would have completely and utterly failed outright on ANY other forum.
Just don't bring up Purgatory and Limbo. We HATE that.
quote: And a few more points I'd like to make.
1. I'm not implying I would get my own TV show and start televangelizing. If I do try and introduce my beliefs into someone's life it will be at a time that I feel it might yeild a positive result for them. I don't want to push people further away.
What do you mean when you say "further?" What have you been up to young man?
Like I said, spend time integrating your beliefs into your own life and the rest will come a lot more naturally. Another way to ask this. Do you feel ready to become someone else's mentor in faith? I don't feel ready. And yet, we are serving as examples, even unknown to us as people watch and see what living this Christian life thing is all about.
quote: 2. I definately agree that before I should even TRY this I should study and self reflect further. All of you who voiced this are completely right, thanks [Smile]
You aren't alone. I don't expect to ever get beyond the need for this. I'm happy with this thought.
quote: 3. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL. This is the point of this discussion. I'm not saying that in any way. I'm taking an anti-going-to-hell stance and want the best for everyone.
Don't fixate on hell. Don't fixate on other people. How are YOU doing and what can you do to spread the good news?
Look. Nobody on Earth can tell you what Heaven is, or what Hell is. Our feeble human understanding of God is such that even if God talked directly to a person here on Earth, the result would still be confusion, analogy, parable, and open to interpretation.
But some parts of God's message to us are clear: - Love - Be kind - Share - Do good work - Don't judge others
Do all that and you don't have to worry about whether you are getting God's message across to those you worry most about. They'll see it.
quote: 4. I go to a church called The Vineyard, and a small Methodist church where everyone is pretty much family. Not sure if anyone has heard of the Vineyard churches. I just recently started attending. Basically it's a relatively youth oriented church where there's live (modern) music every service and it's a gathering of people coming together to celebrate their faith, and support each other as family, and accept any who want to join. We explain what our faith means to us and how it has positively affected our lives. This is what I feel most comfortable with and makes the most sense to me. I am in no way a fire and brimstone promoter. Christ preached love and understanding, not fear. If I am ever in the position to help someone I'd take them to this kind of enviroment.
I'm a HUGE proponent of finding a church where you are comfortable and feel moved. If it doesn't make sense to you, would you stay when the going gets tough? Trust in your spiritual family is a huge bonus. A group where you can bare your soul and not have it trampled is a nice thing.
My own search has led me into some odd places but the spirit was there so I stayed. Sometimes you have to move away (physically or mentally), so my advice is to be prepared to go into searching mode from time to time. It happens.
I've been in churches where I swear God just wasn't present. Or if God was there, it was in order to catch a good nap. You can feel it... or not.
Just don't give up. And take what you can with you so that the spirit of that community is with you even if you aren't there physically.
Enjoy!
PS: The views expressed here are my own and are by no means truly sanctioned by any particular sect or religion. I do not want to promote them to anyone else, but I also feel like it's important to be honest when people ask this type of question. In many people's view, I would be classed as backsliding, lapsed, a "baby Christian" or all sorts of things. Interestingly enough, I've never heard those terms from anyone I thought of as a mentor (secret or real). Could be selection bias on my part. Or it could be that it's pretty clear that anyone who would use those terms isn't really a good role model.
quote: Bekenn I suspect he was a bit longer-winded than the gospels give him credit for.
I sincerely hope he was a lot less long winded than the Gospel of John gives him credit for. I mean really, a three chapter long speech/prayer right after supper? The disciples would be
quote: Kreve isn't this something I should worry about and keep in mind for the well being of my loved ones?
It depends on what you mean by “worry.” Keep in mind, certainly. Obsess about, no. Somewhere in between those two? You need to find a balance that doesn’t leave you with “log in your own eye” syndrome. And at some point you just have to let go and trust that God loves your loved ones even more than you do.
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1) You have to realize, that every sane human being, when confronted with heaven and hell, thinks they are going to heaven. If you tell them they're not, they are not gonna believe you. That makes it hard to scare people into religion. If you can convince them that Hell really exists, they say, "No matter, I'm sure I'll go to Heaven anyway".
2) As far as the bible goes, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that it was written by men in a dead language two thousand years ago. I understand that the message is, for the most part, still intact. But imagine playing the game "telephone", but in about 6 different languages while trying to communicate a subtle message. It's inevitable that things are gonna get a little garbled.
So by all means, read it and learn the lessons it offers, but do not take everything in there literally!Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Couple of points: 2) As far as the bible goes, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that it was written by men in a dead language two thousand years ago. I understand that the message is, for the most part, still intact. But imagine playing the game "telephone", but in about 6 different languages while trying to communicate a subtle message. It's inevitable that things are gonna get a little garbled.
That is not exactly accurate...while ancient Greek is not commonly spoken, people do still know the language. It is not exactly like "telephone" because new translations go back to the original language. Translators don't look to the Latin or Old English translations to then make a new translation into more modern English.
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I think the problem many of us have with evangelism is the same problem I have with inviting people to other things. I have a sense that the people would like what I'm talking about (Jesus, or a book I read, or an organization I like), and it would be helpful to them. I imagine the problem is that they've heard sales pitches before for things that were worthless -- every day of their lives, and every 10 minutes on the tube -- so they're resistant to trust me, although I'm trustworthy.
But I don't really think this is it. I think the issue is that I have a pushy side to myself, and they sense it. And I try to control it, so I end up saying something like, "This is really good stuff, and you need to hear my reasons for thinking so whether you want to or not . . . but I know you really don't want to so I'll just shut up now." Imagine if Coca-Cola advertised itself in such a way!
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quote:Assume that hell does exist and that there is only one way to get into it, isn't this something I should worry about and keep in mind for the well being of my loved ones?
I like what dkw says about keep in mind but don't obsess over.
I take great comfort in the sovereignty of God. I know that salvation is not mine to impart, and all I should do and can do is what I'm commanded to do in the scriptures. The actual "saving of souls" is not up to me and is indeed beyond my capability.
I know the pain of worrying over loved ones and friends who reject the gospel. I also believe as dkw has said that every one of us is responsible for doing our part to spread the good news. My responsibility is to do what I can to be in God's will, to live out the calling He's placed on my life as a wife and mother. I cannot do it perfectly, because I'm a fallen human, but I can do my best to be obedient and to live the type of life I should. The rest is up to God and that's a great comfort.
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quote:That is not exactly accurate...while ancient Greek is not commonly spoken, people do still know the language. It is not exactly like "telephone" because new translations go back to the original language. Translators don't look to the Latin or Old English translations to then make a new translation into more modern English.
I realize that this is the most effective way to come up with a new translation, but you can't say that this is definitively the case for every translation. The original old testament was written in Koine, which, I probably don't need to remind you, doesn't exist anymore. By that I mean while there are quite a few scholars who claim to be able to read it, even their translations involve a lot of guesswork, interpreting words' meanings from context.
It's not a stretch to say that things being mistranslated is the rule, not the exception. But let's assume we could time travel back to when the prophets' wrote the original texts. They were writing what God told them to write, writing with divine intervention. So even initially, it was second-hand information.
Arguing the veracity of the bible is an exercise in futility, because it's unprovable either way.
Which is the point I made above. Read it, draw your own opinions, but don't bother arguing semantics about how accurate it is.
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posted
Basically what a lot of people said: "I think the best way to be an evangelist is to be a true Christian."
And I think it's important if you do try to talk to your friends, make sure it's not YOU talking, it's something that God wants you to say to them.
That's why I like inviting people to church, and letting God do the rest.
I don't think everyone needs to stop talking about Hell, I just don't think it's the right thing to start off with. For instance if you're talking with a loved one instead of saying, "Yeah, you're going to hell if you don't accept Jesus." You might say, "That Jesus, boyyyy, he really loves ya" (Or something more serious yet still encouraging.)
It's good that you're worrying about your loved ones. God wants us to have a burden for lost people. Yay Kreve.
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posted
While I never understood a person's need to convert their friends- I will say that the most inoffensive way would be to show them what Christianity is through action. As an agnostic-leaning-toward-Christianity, I wasn't so much drawn to the religion because of it's promises of salvation, but because of it's philosophies. Kindness and compassion toward others, placing value in the mind and spirit as opposed to material things.
You should start out encouraging them to learn about Christianity because of it's a fantasic way of life. Because non-believers have a hard time entertaining the idea of an almighty God and a heaven and hell.
quote:Is it OK to pick and choose from the Bible what I beleive?
I'm of the opinion that it's largely impossible not to. At the very least, you apply your own interpretation, which will be different from the interpretations of others. That, after all, is why we've had so many heretics, schisms, sects, and denominations. I try to be open to what the Bible says, while keeping in mind that it's a complex and many-layered book, and the obvious or traditional interpretation may not be the correct one.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The original old testament was written in Koine, which, I probably don't need to remind you, doesn't exist anymore. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*blink* Excuse me? Please tell me you just misspoke, and meant New Testament?
Yes, I did. Thanks for catching that. I'm morally opposed to proofreading.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
A good example only goes so far, unfortunately. There comes a point when you have to. . . well, ask a direct question. Like, "Will you come to church with me this Sunday? I think you'd enjoy it."
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I just caught this thread and I confess I don't have time to read the entire thing. But I just wanted to tell Kreve as a fellow Christian This is a topic I think we all struggle with.
Yes we are all called to witness to others, but how we do that is up to us.
I think it was St. Augustine that said" Share the Gospel at all times, even use words when you have to." Our actions speak much better for us than our words ever could.
Remember only God can save someone. You can not, but you can be used by God to this end, so be ready when he presents the opportunity.
Telling someone they are going to hell doesn't work. If you are a Christian out of fear then you have missed the point.
I may have some more comments later when I have time
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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First: I’m an atheist. Just thought I should get that out of the way.
Kreve:
quote:Assume that hell does exist and that there is only one way to get into it, isn't this something I should worry about and keep in mind for the well being of my loved ones?
Bluntly: No, it isn't. They are perfectly capable of coming to their own independent conclusions, and if we know anything at all about humans it's that two rational humans can draw entirely different conclusions from the same evidence. The best thing you can do for them, in my view, is let them find their own answers. If they come to you to talk about it, answer all of their questions honestly. Invite them to church if you like, but don't be offended if they say no.
I'm not surprised that most of the posters to this thread -- theists, the vast majority -- found your opening post respectful and openminded. I did not. I understand that you tried very hard to be respectful and openminded, and that's good, but your problem is right here:
quote:To nonbelievers, please understand that this is fact to me and I’m presenting it as such for guidance from those of similar faith.
The minute you say "this is fact to me," you're already talking down to everyone who doesn't share your beliefs, because you're saying that they are not open for debate. No matter how respectful your tone -- and it was very much so, you phrase everything very politely -- you're still being condescending. You're saying "my beliefs are not open to debtate, but because your beliefs are not my beliefs, your beliefs are open to debate. In fact, yours are outright wrong!" In my experience most theists do it without even being aware of it. I've mentioned this here on Hatrack before, but it's not something I expect will ever change.
I know you don't actually mean any condescention by it, but the condescention is still there. It's unintended, but it's inherent in what you say. Even if you don’t “present it as such” for the purposes of evangelizing to atheists and agnostics, you still believe it, and just like it has in your opening post, it will show in your words.
If you want to try to convince me that what I believe is not true, you must also be open to being convinced that what you believe is not true. From what you've said so far, you aren't.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:If you want to try to convince me that what I believe is not true, you must also be open to being convinced that what you believe is not true.
I don't agree with this. If you are Naog and have just seen the ocean lapping at the edge of the cliff, and you know that another couple feet and your village is going to be flooded, it is not necessary to say that you might be making it all up in order to warn people.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I do agree with almost all of Twinky’s post, but I don’t think it’s applicable to Kreve’s opening post. By “To nonbelievers, please understand that this is fact to me and I’m presenting it as such for guidance from those of similar faith” I understood him to be saying that he wasn’t interested in discussing his premises in this thread, but rather asking others who share those premises about the consequences, assuming that they’re true. It’s not condescending to non-theists, because it’s not addressed to them. If Kreve were to start a discussion with people who didn’t share his premises by telling his conversation partner that they weren’t open for discussion, that would be condescending.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
dkw, I'm aware of that, and I think I addressed it when I pointed out that even if he presents it differently when he is directly addressing nonbelievers, his internal view is still that he's the one with the absolute truth. That's going to colour everything he says to nonbelievers, no matter how polite toward us he might attempt to be.
kat, your analogy doesn't work. And even if my statement is not true for every single context in which it might conceivably be said, you haven't shown it to be at all inaccurate in this particular case.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I think this is a fundamental difference in the way we think about it - I don't think that in order to talk about your beliefs, you have to preface it with "I might be making this up." To me, it looks like you are asking people to not completely believe what they currently completely believe.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Now see, I believe it’s possible to be 100% convinced that something is true, while still acknowledging the possibility that you might be wrong. I always figured that came more from my science/engineering background, though, since it seems to be a more common attitude there.
edit: that was addressed to Twinky.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:It's unintended, but it's inherent in what you say. Even if you don’t “present it as such” for the purposes of evangelizing to atheists and agnostics, you still believe it, and just like it has in your opening post, it will show in your words.
If you are an atheist and not an agnostic, then aren't you, too, saying that there are things that are fact to you, not open for debate? Aren't atheists really, deep down, condescending towards those who do believe in something, no matter how benign that condescencion might be?
How can someone not be just a little condescending when they believe that they have the Truth, and others do not? It's human nature, I think
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I don't think you have to say it at the beginning of all conversations. It's always a possibility that someone's wrong, but we don't start scientific papers or the 9/11 report with "This may or may not be true."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well I haven't read through every post, so I apologize if I state things already stated, etc.
I myself am a Christian, and in my personal view a devout one. I pray before every meal and pray throughout the course of the day. I go to church whenever my work allows me to do so. I attempt to perform as many good deeds as I can, to forgive every person who sins against me, etc.
The thing is I'm also a person who believes more in the thought behind a word then its literal definition. I don't think you need to accept Jesus himself into your heart etc. I believe that you simply are required to live out your life as a Christian, to be Christ like. That and if you read the bible and a little bit of history you would see him to be a much different individual. Jesus was not a conformist, He got angry at times, He was kind, forgiving, did not worry about the opinions of others and simply did the "right" thing.
The fact is that our conception of "hard core christian" or "bible thumpers" today is much different than this Christian concept. They are people who are on the verge of or are violent about their faith. They are people who will judge you and attempt to punish you for your so called sins. They tend to believe in very literal translations of the bible etc.
That and the whole idea behind Christian is that you are not perfect, that you have sinned and will continue to do so. The idea is to attempt to improve yourself and to try and win as many battles you can in the impossible fight against temptation. Christians have a wonderful, excellent, loving role model. I simply do not understand how so many Christians seem to miss this.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Also the Crusades were not started, and if you honestly look at the politics and economics of the situation you would understand even more, over religion. It was the Roman emperor ( Byzantine emperor) asking the Pope for some help against the Turks pressing against his borders. The pope saw this as a chance to breach the divide between Roman Catholics and the Orthodox and made up quite a firey speech and request for everyone to go to the holy lands and drive back the barbarians.
That and personally I believe that you shouldn't try to push anyone into your faith. If someone sees that you are succesful and good in life they will generally ask you what makes you different etc. In my opinion it makes much more sense to lead by example than to cry and call for converts etc. Plus to be honest it seems that today a lot of people are just converting people from one form of christianity to the next.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
There is a world of difference between believing I'm right and believing something is Absolutely True. I believe I'm right. That doesn't mean I am right. Kreve believes himself to be in possession of Absolute Truth.
I also think that it incumbent upon theists, as the overwhelming majority, to be particularly considerate in their dealings with nonbelievers. Yes, that means I cut KoM more slack than I cut Jay. (Added: Not much more, but more. )
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I also think that it incumbent upon theists, as the overwhelming majority, to be particularly considerate in their dealings with nonbelievers. Yes, that means I cut KoM more slack than I cut Jay.
Why?
When you speak to someone, he isn't responding with a collective mind. He is one person, and you are one person. If you offend or hurt him, you are offending and hurting an individual.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
kat, if "because there are more of you" doesn't cut it for you as a reason, I don't think I can elaborate.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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If it is what I think you mean, then both people are simultaneously disparate individuals engaged in a specific discussion while they are also representatives of their groups adding another dab of paint to the portait of society. I love the sweep of history and I believe that a million tiny interactions are what create the larger dialogue, but still - if you are nice to someone, they are happy. Theoretically, there could be ripples and they could pay it forward and all the world smiles, but it is just as likely that it's over. The butterfly's wings have fluttered for a second, and that's all that happened.
Same the other way. It could be that being rude to someone about their deepest-held beliefs when they mean nothing but kindness or indifference towards you will cause a thousand ripples and shift the grand balance of power, but more likely, that's the end. The only thing for certain is that an individual was hurt.
quote:if "because there are more of you" doesn't cut it for you as a reason, I don't think I can elaborate.
I'm sorry, twinky - it doesn't.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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