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Author Topic: Batman Begins
Puffy Treat
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Cillian Murphy may be the first live action "insane" Bat-villain who truly seemed scary and disturbing.
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SC Carver
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Just saw it. Thought it was great. Definitely the best Batman, and a better movie than Star Wars. Tim Burton's Batman comes close.

(Don't get me wrong I enjoyed Star Wars, it just wasn't a great movie. Bad acting, ridiculous script, great action and fighting = fun movie not great movie.)

I really like the way they tapped into how Batman uses fear to intimidate his enemies, something that was missing from the older movies.

Some of the scenes through the eyes of the people on drugs were down right scary. Not for little kids, but cool in a creepy way.

I also like the way they set up a bunch of criminals for the bat to fight in the future. Take a bunch criminally insane people bust them out and expose them to mind altering drugs. You should be able to get a few good criminal master minds out of that crowd.

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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by SC Carver:
I also like the way they set up a bunch of criminals for the bat to fight in the future. Take a bunch criminally insane people bust them out and expose them to mind altering drugs. You should be able to get a few good criminal master minds out of that crowd.

We have at least three confirmed.

Four, if the Lazarus Pit exists in the film reality. [Cool]

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Xavier
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SPOILERS

While I liked the movie mostly, I do have a couple plot problems.

1) Did nobody involved in the making of this movie realize that the human body is 85% water? Theres no reason why the water in your body is fine while water in pipes vaporizes.

2) Couldn't the evil plot have been accomplished with a half dozen crop dusters?

Theres more, but those are my quibbles that hurt my suspension of disbelief.

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Puffy Treat
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That bothered your suspension of disbelief, while a 600 year old leader of a secret order didn't? [Wink]

EDIT: To be fair, upon reflection only the novelization mentions Ra's Al Ghul's incredible age.

[ June 18, 2005, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Puffy Treat ]

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SC Carver
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X makes a good point. I was wondering why the microwave thing didn't hurt anything else. Ever put something metal inside the microwave by accident? Of course by that point I just went with it and enjoyed the movie.
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Lord Solar Macharius
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quote:
Four, if the Lazarus Pit exists in the film reality.
SPOILER:

Notice that serene look on his face before the train went boom? [Big Grin] Hopefully he'll be back.

Also, I remember hearing someone say that a microwave needs a metal to bounce off to do any extreme molecular excitation (ie. being exposed to one will give you a lot of discomfort and a good stab at cancer)...but that doesn't make a whole lotta' sense to me anyway (Why wouldn't Bats and Ra's be fried on the train?). By that point in the film, I was willing to except that it didn't make perfect sense, the rest had just been so good.

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Jim-Me
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Yeah, a microwave beam of that strength would cook anyone around... and I paused to note that... and then just shrugged and went on with the movie. Normally things like that bother me a lot, but I just blew this one off... testimony to how well done the rest of the movie was...

so much was right about this movie I can't begin to list things off... just go see it.

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Promethius
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Just got back from the movie about an hour ago, it is great! I went in with zero expectations and was floored with how well they did everything. Suspensful, action packed, at times even a bit funny(but good funny not ridiculous funny) Great ending, great story, great everything, I have no complaints I loved it. Hopefully Land of The Dead(Final Night of The Living Dead movie) which comes out on the 24th is done half as well as this.
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Narnia
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Yeah the microwave beam...I had to work hard to ignore that. I couldn't ignore it. *sigh*

But aside from that, the movie was a great piece of work. I finally understand Batman now and all of his little gadgets make sense. [Smile]

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digging_holes
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I went and saw the movie on Friday with my dad.

While there are a few minor quibbles to be had with it, we pretty much both agreed that it was the best Batman yet. In fact, I think that it is the very first good Batman; the other four, while mildly entertaining, were all just failed attempts.

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alluvion
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Good flick. The only movie I've seen recently (past year or so) that I wanted to watch again, immediately. Curiously, also an appropriate Father's Day release.

It's slow to build, though. (technical concerns: the car chase coulda been cut in half, and the logic behind the motives of the "league of shadows" is shadowy at best, apparently hate-filled confusion at worst).

my reckoning of the film is this - 3. Batman Begins is the best of any incarnation of the, "dead-horse beaten", batman idea, and 2. Complex characters and plot are more interesting than standard fare, and 1. Christopher Nolan's got it - IT -like in Johnny Depp's got "IT" - only Chris Nolan's got it as a director. Good on him!

goddamn!

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Book
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I went to go see this movie again and it's true, it really is a movie you have to see twice. Lots of details slip by you, some of which are small but turn out to have great effect upon the film, most noticeably upon characterization.

I agree that the ME was a stretch - I actually didn't think about it til after the movie. I know little to nothing about science, and I suppose it's probably impossible to find a frequency that ONLY effects tap water and NOT blood. But when there's only one thing unrealistic in a comic book movie, it's a good thing. Even if it's a large part of the plot.

Just a few questions:

Who here laughed when Rachel started slapping Bruce? Several people in my audience did, I wish they would've shut up.

Who here laughed during the "I'd like to thank you all for... showing up and drinking all of my booze" speech? I was choking.

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Phanto
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The drug scenes terrified me. Save for that, the movie was standard quality.
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Chris Bridges
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Saw it again yesterday -- never mind the symbolism of taking your son to see a movie on father's Day that deals with the violent death of a father -- and it still holds together well. My only real beefs?

SPOILERS
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The constant flashbacks, while arguably necessary, started getting annoying. And the death scene seemed really fake. If it's the child's sanitized memory, as has been suggested, I'd have liked to have seen something to emphasize that.
The fact that every Wayne ancestor was a paragon of virtue. Again, not a big thing at all, but after hearing about the family of endles saints I was starting to wish for a Wayne that was a real bastard, just for variety.
The microwave thing.
The inconsistent drug. A shot drove a mob boss completely insane and made Batman fling himself out a window and pass out for two days, but a "concentrated dose" made a young woman kinda dizzy even though she was in a car chase next to a big black bat in a situation that would have been terrifying without the drug. And the crowd scenes didn't look like too many terrified people. A couple here and there, but the kid held together pretty well and the inmates didn't seem fazed at all.
The car chase. I liked most of it, but it could have been shorter and the caltrops scene really bothered me. Batman doesn't kill, he especially doesn't kill cops, and he had to know that causing cop cars to flip could easily have been fatal. Seemed out of place to me.

If you've ever heard me discuss the other Batman movies, you'll see that this is not terribly critical.

I loved the movie. If only this had come out instead of the Burton one, we could have had decades of excellent Batman movies all along...

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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
SPOILERS
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The car chase. I liked most of it, but it could have been shorter and the caltrops scene really bothered me. Batman doesn't kill, he especially doesn't kill cops, and he had to know that causing cop cars to flip could easily

I'd agree with you (I was thinking the same thing during the car chase), if the movie didn't make note of that. Alfred scolds Bruce for doing something so dangerous and that he's lucky no one was killed.
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Jon Boy
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I think the point was that he wouldn't have done something that could have gotten a lot of people killed.
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Jim-Me
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But this is Batman *learning* to be Batman.

He makes mistakes and Alfred calls him on them and he learns and picks himself up again.

It's entirely appropriate for Bruce to do things that would be out of character for Batman in his prime... he had to learn the lessons somehow.

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Dagonee
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Maybe this is the incident that causes him to consider the risks and make avoiding them part of his ethos.
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Domini
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Wow.

I saw the movie twice...partly because the first time I got in late and got a really, really bad seat (far too close to the screen) but if it had sucked I wouldn't have gone to see it again, no matter how bad my seat before had been.

Assume spoilers are below, folks.

***Spoilers spoilers spoilers***

There are a lot of things that went right here. Firstly, casting...ALL the actors did very well, and I admit I was skeptical about the whats-her-name girl...I'm not a uber-Batman fan, but I know enough to know he doesn't have many women in his life, so I expected the worst. I am glad to say, not so! They effectively removed her from his life at the end, and managed it without killing her, and best of all--you believe her when she decides not to try to, oh I don't know, seduce or marry or whatever the token girl is "supposed" to do to the hero in every superhero movie.

The characterization and dialogue was good! It was very serious a lot of the time, but they did inject humor--Bruce wanting a "Tumbler" in black, the billionaire spleunking (sp) base-jumping crowd, Gordon wanting Batman's car and then getting to drive it later, needing to buy batsuit parts in bulk to stave off suspicion ("Well at least we'll have spares!"), several of Alfred's lines.

I especially liked the scene where Bruce starts telling everyone off to get them out of his home before they got killed, and then the newspaper article later--Drunken Billionaire Burns Down Home, or something. You realize it's exactly what he really has always wanted to say to them, but never had a good reason to before.

In fact, that reminds me--the film was remarkably consistant with details...everything lined up with everything else very neatly. Little details and the like, they were important. For example--with the footage of the proto batmobile all over the news, obviously Fox would find out who Batman was. The buying-in-bulk thing for the batsuit parts. Little things about Wayne Enterprises. And of course, at the end releasing all of Arkham's (sp?) madmen, under the influence of Scarecrow's drugs, and the Joker's card. Like several have stated, there's a reasonable source of several enemies for Batman to battle now.

Which leads me to...given all the little details being so perfectly aligned with one another (except perhaps the science of the microwave thingie...which in my eyes is forgiveable because it's the only thing that was off that I noticed), everything seems there on purpose...so what's the odds that the little boy is the future Robin? Given he's portrayed as being in an abusiveish family (family yelling at him like that when he's outside) it'd be easy to set him up as needy for a father figure such as Bruce. And he does say that he thought Batman would save them. I mean, they didn't need to add him, or have him hanging out in a dubious part of Gothom with his father (?) screaming at him from inside the apartment. On its own, that little detail didn't really matter, but as character development for a future Robin, it sets a LOT up.

And also, perhaps, the toddler in Gordan's kitchen is what's-her-name, Batgirl...didn't she become Batgirl, and was later paralyzied when everything went to hell in a handbasket? (forgive me, I never read the apocolyptic Batman comics after Gotham fell, just skimmed a few times in the bookstore)

Overall, I'm very very happy with this movie. It hits all the right notes between making Batman plausible, but yet still keeping that mythological/comics feel...it's very true to the Batman comics I have read, it has some things that would obviously never happen in the real world, but it's all grounded very nicely in a dark, gritty world.

Oh, and because I want to mention it specifically...Cillian was great as Scarecrow. I've never actually read any of the Batman comics with Scarecrow, mostly because the name/concept I'd come across before then seems silly. But Cillian really makes you believe in his suave-but-slightly-wrong Dr. Crain and later totally insane Scarecrow. For those of you who haven't seen the movie and are spoiling yourself--don't mind his lack of elaborate costume in the promo pics...he doesn't need a big, bad costume to be scary, because he's already a total creep and later, raving nut case...his acting is excellant. I never thought I'd say Scarecrow is a friggin' cool villian, but Cillian makes him rock.

Anyway, great movie. I want the DVD, like now. Actually, I want a sequal that kicks just as much butt as this movie does.

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Dagonee
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quote:
so what's the odds that the little boy is the future Robin?
I was waiting for him to tell Batman his name was Jason (the second Robin). Batman discovered him trying to rob the tires from the Batmobile. He ended up getting killed by the Joker.
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alluvion
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I thought the plot was brilliant. Sure, there's a lot of oppressive ominous aspects to da Batman (and the pacing is slow and tedious) - an unreachable, unegageable aspect for some critics. But, I kinda digged the confusion of the plot. Confusion born of complexity is NOT a flaw in storytelling, it's a good reason to revisit and explore.

The tedious "wating for batman" aspect of the front-end development of this film was a stroke of genius for Nolan.

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Astaril
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Okay, now admittedly I'm kind of tired and may have missed some details having just come home from watching it now, but did anyone else wonder where the heck all the lush green miles and miles of countryside in the middle of the city came from that surrounded the Wayne mansion at the very end of the film? I mean I know he's rich, but that's getting ridiculous. And wasn't it in the middle of a city before?
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Jon Boy
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I always thought Wayne Manor was a little outside of Gotham City.
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Astaril
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Is it? I don't know the comic books, so I may well have just placed it inside the city in my head. It did seem like it was in the city (or at least much closer to it) for the earlier half of the movie though. Eh, you're probably right. It might just have been that it wasn't made out so green and bright at any other point so it seemed very different to me at the end.
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fil
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Astaril, just like most major metropolis settings, the rich people that support the downtown rarely live there (except maybe in NYC, just maybe). All the richest city-builders in Cleveland where I live only visit it. Wayne was no different, only that he really seemed to be invested in the city's future (like Peter B. Lewis here...bless him...I wonder if he fights crime?).

Great flick. I loved the explanation of supervillians in this. Best movie explanation ever. Just from this movie, who are the possible bad guys?

Spoilers...
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We have the Joker, of course (please be Mark Hamill, please be Mark Hamill). We have Ras Al Ghul (if pit exists). Zsasz was prominent. Crane didn't die. In fact, this was a huge positive in my book...I loved that the bad guys live. They ALWAYS do in the comics...why feel the need to kill them off as they did in the Burton movies? Those are four for sure ones. Anyone pick up on others? No sign of Catwoman (will she be a) rich philanthropist lady from comics or b) prosititute from comics or c) other). I am assuming in this franchise they won't want to repeat most of the original run so maybe Joker only but no Bane, Poison Ivy, Penguin or Riddler. Also, hopefully not Hush (worst Loeb comic ever...didn't like it, no I didn't). Maybe a better stab at Two-Face (Mr. Jones mugging for two hours didn't count).

My only "issue" with it was the loss of Ducard. I loved Henri Ducard in the comic. He was a French detective that Wayne studied with in Paris. A nasty but exceedingly clever one who eventually figures out Waynes identity and almost sells it to the highest bidder. Having him as a "front" was clever but a waste of a potentially cool subplot in the future.

Great film, though. Worth the wait. Are we seeing the turn for DC...taking the superhero movie mantle away from Marvel (who, after Electra, Daredevil, Punisher and soon Fantastic Four (which, I know, MIGHT not suck) with this movie and the ringer from Singer with Superman Returns next summer? Now all we need is Joss Whedon to do Wonderwoman as rumored and the triumverate will be complete.

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Storm Saxon
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I liked this movie a lot more than either of the Spider-Man movies. Good stuff. [Smile]
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alluvion
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The scene featuring Michael Cain and Morgan Freeman was so precious and subtle. That's the touch of a good director giving thorough consideration to all his characters.

That was a "sweet spot" for me.

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kaioshin00
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Batman is one cool cat.
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Dagonee
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I still think Batman would work better as a television show, with individual episodes that usually advance the story arc:

Season 1: Batman Year One/Long Halloween. Introduce Robin toward end to show his training.

Season 2: Gordon gets appointed commissioner. Not sure of the best long arc to use - maybe The Cult. Establish Robin as competent crime fighter. Introduce Batgirl midseason.

Season 3: Kill Robin and have the "Killing Joke" events occur toward end of season. Batgirl becomes Oracle. Joker is main villain for arc. Joker attempts to set off earthquake machine that will destroy Gotham. Stopped mid-quake to end season showing devastation and announcement of No Man's Land.

Season 4: No Man's Land.

Season 5: Knightfall (Basic story w/ Bane crippling Batman, but changed up. A lot.)

It would have to be done by someone with good capabilities to manage long arcs. Wheedon at his best, for example.

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Jim-Me
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Season 6 - The Dark Knight Returns?

I *SO* want to see that made well...

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Dagonee
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More like Season 20. [Smile]

I'd like to see it done, too. It could fill a whole season well, but they would insist on adding a love interest and, worse, making a second season if it were popular.

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Ginol_Enam
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I think it would work better if they included all the Robins... The Dick Grayson Robin could leave as Nightwing either in the end of season two or the beginning of season three. Then Jason Todd could be introduced and killed by the end of season three. Season four would introduce Tim Drake (No Man's Land and Knightfall would both move to seasons five and six). There could be some other story arc for season four...

Then Stephanie Brown could be introduced maybe during season six as Spoiler with Tom leaving and her becoming Robin, being fired, and getting killed in season seven...

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Dagonee
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True. I thought three robins in four seasons might be too much - not for batman fans, but for the necessary broader audience. But it could definitely work.
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Ginol_Enam
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I edited it for Stephanie Brown, although she could be easily cut out.
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Book
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I went to the Alamo drafthouse to see it recently. It's a liberal indie Austin sorta place, where you can order food and eat and drink as you watch the movie. They find a whole lot of old kitchy movies and movie trailers. For instance, before Sin City they showed a whole lot of pulpy martial arts films and a song and dance number from the sixties about how "female of the species is the most dangerous of the sex."

For Begins, though, they showed episodes from the Animated Series, and boy howdy, there's not a lot cooler than seeing that on the big screen. They showed the first one with the Scarecrow, called "The Smell of Fear," I believe.

EDIT: they also screened a short film of Homestarrunner telling the audience to be quiet and shut up. "Sewiouswy."

[ June 22, 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Book ]

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kaioshin00
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http://www.zakorner.com/images/joker.jpg

someone sent this to me .. i dont think its real though

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Chris Bridges
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So, the question is, who should play the Joker in the sequel?

I think Mark Hamill should do the voice, but that probably wouldn't be practical [Smile]

I definitely do not want to see whatever standup comic is currently hot to get it, nor should it be an actor with so much iconic screen time that he can't disappear into the character.

So who'd be good?

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Lyrhawn
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The only Batman villian that comes to mind that hasn't been done is Clayface, which they could totally CGI into doing these days.

Mark Hamill as the Joker is incredibly intriguing. The voice would be...mind bendingly awesome, but could he actually act it? Questionable.

The thing about the Joker is that he was menacing in his own way, but he also had a sinister comedy about him. We need an actor that fits that role.

As far as villians already done? I'd love to see Mr. Freeze revisited and entirely redone. The Mr. Freeze from the other movie done by Ahhnold was a horrible parody of the Mr. Freeze I've come to know and love. He's one of my favorite bad guys ever, and they made him into a campy joke. I want to see him redone, Animated Series style.


Side Note: Christian Bale gave me chills as Batman. He actually scared the crap out of people, which The Bat is supposed to do. Still, I'll have to rewatch the first two to see how he compared with Michael Keaton, my favorite Batman. I like Michelle Pfiefer's interpretation of Catwoman, Tim Burton did a good job with that. I also liked Keaton's Batman, but the villains left something wanting. However he made Gotham very dark, and comic book like. I wpuldn't be so quick to put down a movie made more than a decade ago. It won an Oscar, and in general was very, very good.

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fil
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quote:
I'd like to see it done, too. It could fill a whole season well, but they would insist on adding a love interest and, worse, making a second season if it were popular.
Re: Dark Knight Returns. There IS a love interest, if you recall, in the DKR comic. He and Selina, though not on the best terms at that point, are clearly old lovers.

Clayface would be cool but I think he lacks the psychological underpinning that makes the other villians so great. IMHO, anyway. I do like the idea of a REAL Dr. Freeze (ala the animated series) remake.

I say give Hamill the Joker. It could be his "Pulp Fiction" and make him a star again. Then again, his physical features don't match the voice as well as the animated version. Maybe they should CG the Joker? [Big Grin]

But oh yeah, I like the idea of an ongoing series. Just don't let the Millar/Gough guys near it (from "Smallville" fame...Smallville is cute but then they tried to do Gotham...(shudder)).

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Jim-Me
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Joker - Hamill would be fun. I'd like to see Crispin Glover get it (it's rumored that they want a bigger name, but he'd be awesome).
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Clayface would be cool but I think he lacks the psychological underpinning that makes the other villians so great.
I don't know, the Clayface as done in the original Animated Series where he was all sorts of mixed up with Thorne because he was desperate to rekindle his career...that was a pretty compelling backstory to me.

Mark Hamill's voicing of the Joker in that series was incredible. I also liked the Joker's theme music [Smile]

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Chris Bridges
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The Michael Keaton Batman, and the ones after it, were the very best remakes of the Adam West Batman possible. I honor them for that.

Batman Begins is the Batman from the comics I loved.

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Lord Solar Macharius
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Apparently Glover's agent tried pushing him on the WB and they told him no. They've already short listed a bunch of big names they'd like (think Johnny Depp, Jude Law and Edward Norton big), but I hope Nolan is allowed to choose who he wants.
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Storm Saxon
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quote:

I still think Batman would work better as a television show, with individual episodes that usually advance the story arc

One of the things that I found very disappointing about the movie was that it sanitized Batman and the controlled violence that he is. This film might as well have been made for television.

Batman is filled with rage from his parents' death. He is rage. That is what he is. He hates criminals. The film turned his rage into sadness and that killed the character, I think. I think that Nolan got the angry, rage-filled voice of Batman perfectly whenever he spoke to criminals, but I think the movie fell short of really potraying Batman, the image of Batman it was trying to shoot for, accurately by not using the fight scenes to keep Batman in character. Wayne/Batman should have enjoyed beating the pulp out of the criminals. We should have seen the violence depicted in a more in your face fashion: snapping of bones, contusions, screams of pain. That kind of thing. Batman is violent rage. When Wayne is Batman, he ceases to be Wayne. He becomes Batman, the avenger. It's a shame the movie couldn't show that.

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Jon Boy
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Whoa. I completely forgot that Mark Hamill had done the voice of the Joker in the cartoon. I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around that.
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Dagonee
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I think Hamill would do a great job in a live action movie.
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aspectre
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ummm, StormSaxon, where did you get that rather odd interpretation of Batman?
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fil
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aspectre, I think that is some of the Frank Miller interpretation of the character. In his versions, Batman is snapping arms, legs, and spines some of the time. Not every scene, but it is far from gentle. He shot a guy (not to kill, of course), cut a guy's arteries using broken glass (and used his bleeding to death to get information...he said give the info or the bleeding won't be stopped) as well as the usual hanging people from great heights hijinx. He is a nasty good guy, one that the other goody goody heroes in the DC pantheon at most tolerate and at the very least try to bring down.

That was one thing I wanted a wee bit more of in the movie, too. Gordon wasn't always a big supporter of Batman. His cops were fighting with the Bat initially until he realized he was an asset. In this one, Gordon (already an outsider) was quick to think the Bats was the real deal. We did get one good cop on bat fight scene so I should be happy but still.

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Jim-Me
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compared to previous on screen intepretations I'd hardly call this sanitized... though it's not Sin City, either (thank goodness).
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