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I got an e-mail from a Christian preacher I know from Purdue telling me about the evils of the Mormon Church and warning me to flee. Really it's kind of sweet that he cares I guess.
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Yes. Yes, that helps. Oh my stars. *thwap* Don't SCARE me like that. It didn't make sense at all because you're Hobbes, but still - other people who are NOT Hobbes have done it, and I had a horribly scary moment. I'm sorry for that, by the way. *starts breathing again*
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In other news, I have decided I like life without my husband here so much, I'm going to divorce him and go find a new career as a phone worker for one of those lines men call late at night. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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*does not know what to feel since she is not Mormon, but is happy that everyone seems relieved*
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So*….. when the various door to door recruiters from various churches come knocking on the door how does one politely say I’m not interested. I’ve tried the whole I’m in church, like it, run the sound room, blah blah blah. Yet they still keep bugging. I thought it was really funny the one time when they gave me something to read and then asked for a donation.
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I love you, Hobbes, and I suppose I can recognize the humor some would see in this, but I find this thread in horribly bad taste. I personally find it almost as disrespectful as KoM's attitude toward religion in general. This is not meant to sound condescending, but I really have come to expect better of you.
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My wife is friends with two of the elders from our local ward, and they've never tried to convert us, but every time the missionaries come to our door we just tell them that if so-and-so couldn't convince us then they won't be able to either.
Then I offer them a drink (non-alchoholic of course, I'm not so devilish as to taunt thirsty Mormons with alcohol ).
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Moose (I can't bring myself to call you Papa, but my inherent need to shorten everything keeps me from calling you by your full name)
I fail to see how this thread (in general) is in bad taste. I may disagree with Jay's posts (which seems to be a trend here at Hatrack), but most of the posts are respectively poking fun at all religions that actively try to save you from your current situation (i.e. Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, etc.)
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Ok this should be good. How on earth did I say anything in here that you disagree with? I was asking a question. You disagree with the question?
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Jay, my issue with your post probably had more to do with the phrasing, and my subsequent interpretaion of it. On re-reading it, I'm sure that you meant it in a humorous manner, but it just struck me as contrite. Especially your last statement:
quote:I’ve tried the whole I’m in church, like it, run the sound room, blah blah blah. Yet they still keep bugging. I thought it was really funny the one time when they gave me something to read and then asked for a donation.
Whether you agree or disagree with these people's views or opinions, they believe that they're doing something good and worthy by talking to you about their beliefs. To rebuff them in a manner that is anything but polite and respectful would speak volumes about ones own character.
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quote:Whether you agree or disagree with these people's views or opinions, they believe that they're doing something good and worthy by talking to you about their beliefs. To rebuff them in a manner that is anything but polite and respectful would speak volumes about ones own character.
I suspect, though can't know for sure, that this is the sentiment behind Pop's post.
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I have no doubt that Hobbes was the soul of politeness in rebuffing the offer of enlightenment about the evil nature of his church.
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Oh, people have been trying to save me from those wicked Mormons all along. My boss where I used to work said the devil had just gotten hold of me, because I still was interested in joining the church even after he explained to me what a speaker at their Baptist church had told them about the evils of Mormonism. My point that talking to Mormons personally, and getting to know them, and asking them what they believe, was probably a more reliable method of finding out about the church than listening to some guy who hated Mormons and taking what he said as the whole truth, didn't seem to strike my boss as relevant.
My mother told me that dad and she decided I just must have turned off my brain.
A kind Christian lady who took care of my cats for me a few times happened to run into missionaries at my house, and afterwards left me lots of anti-Mormon literature in my mailbox, because she was worried about me. When I told her I was already a member of the church, she was shocked and very soon thereafter quit being available to keep my cats, though possibly for unrelated reasons.
When the temple opened here in town, there were protestors across the street for months, and tracts of anti-Mormon literature being passed out all over the area.
It's the strangest thing, to me, that people are so worried about the dangers of the Latter Day Saints, who are generally straightedge, law-abiding, hard working, quiet and respectful model citizens. The worst thing that can be said about Mormons as a group, it seems to me, is that we tend to be really dorky. <laughs> Am I the only one who thinks that? I happen to love that quality, and it is just on the surface, as the people are culturally rich and diverse in truth, when you know them better. But to an outsider's eye I find it perfectly just and applicable that we appear rather bland and whitebread on the surface.
But so many things in our modern world are so much worse, there is slavery and sex slavery, torture, oppressive governments, so much brutality, war, hunger, disease, destructive addictions, urban violence, homelessness, children with no health care, there are so many evils that could be addressed and helped a huge amount How can anyone feel their time and resources are best spent by battling the LDS? That is such a puzzle to me.
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: Was I misbehaving?
No, no, calm down, you're behaving very nicely. I'm scolding Hobbes for making light inappropriately and for upsetting the group.
As for me, I refuse to allow folk to proselytize to me, I do not proselytize to others, but I try to treat everyone with respect regarding their religious beliefs.
Folk can be very touchy about religion, so I avoid debate to maintain harmony.
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quote:But so many things in our modern world are so much worse, there is slavery and sex slavery, torture, oppressive governments, so much brutality, war, hunger, disease, destructive addictions, urban violence, homelessness, children with no health care, there are so many evils that could be addressed and helped a huge amount How can anyone feel their time and resources are best spent by battling the LDS? That is such a puzzle to me.
This statement puzzles me. Mormon men are encouraged to spend 2 years of their life trying to convert people. Although I certainly wouldn't call that "battling" (I have great respect for it), it is an extraordinary commitment of resources to something that isn't one of "slavery and sex slavery, torture, oppressive governments, so much brutality, war, hunger, disease, destructive addictions, urban violence, homelessness, children with no health care." Hobbes is about to do it himself.
Obviously, there are differences in how people go about conversion. But it's still dedicating resources to conversion and not your list.
quote:I have no doubt that Hobbes was the soul of politeness in rebuffing the offer of enlightenment about the evil nature of his church.
I have no doubt of that either. But THT wondered why Pop was displeased with this thread and posted his paragraph on the importance of rebuffing politely. It surprised me that s/he (sorry -don't know) didn't see how that might apply to this thread.
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I'm actually surprised that Pops was offended by it. I think by telling someone their chosen path in life is a disaster, you must accept the possibility that they will scorn you for the attempt.
That's always a risk. Sometimes it is an acceptable risk, and sometimes (for me, anyway - maybe I shouldn't feel like this, but I do) it just isn't.
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quote:This statement puzzles me. Mormon men are encouraged to spend 2 years of their life trying to convert people. Although I certainly wouldn't call that "battling" (I have great respect for it), it is an extraordinary commitment of resources to something that isn't one of "slavery and sex slavery, torture, oppressive governments, so much brutality, war, hunger, disease, destructive addictions, urban violence, homelessness, children with no health care."
Oh but it very much is a battle against those very things! People who convert and live the gospel will not contribute to those evils, and will resist and fight against them. You might think of the missionaries as recruiting soldiers in the war against those things. (I personally believe that's true of the members of any church who sincerely strive to live their religion.)
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Dags, If you and I had a discussion where you tried to convince me that you worshipped the one true god (who just happened to be a Smurf toy from the early 80's), and that for the preservation of my eternal soul I should convert, I would be respectful of your beliefs (and extricate myself from the situation as quickly as possible).
Then I would promptly talk to a friend and explain what I found to be funny about the situation. I don't consider that to be disrespectful, and I believe that this thread was started under the same pretense of good-natured humour.
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quote: Whether you agree or disagree with these people's views or opinions, they believe that they're doing something good and worthy by talking to you about their beliefs. To rebuff them in a manner that is anything but polite and respectful would speak volumes about ones own character.
Interesting. Not sure why I’m responding here since this is just an obvious Jay is a jerk and I disagree with anything he says tirade. But anyway…..
Did I say I did something impolite or disrespectful? No. As a matter of fact, I was asking about how to be polite to them with the goal being to not hurt their feelings. If you’re referring to me thinking it is funny that someone would ask for a donation when giving out reading material, it is certainly out of the norm for someone to ask for money in this situation. And again, I didn’t make a reference to what I did, just that it was funny. Part of my problem is that I’m probably too nice to them and talk. Just the typical friendly neighborly welcome person. Questioning my character about this makes me wonder if someone doesn’t need to look in the mirror and reflect for a while.
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quote:Then I would promptly talk to a friend and explain what I found to be funny about the situation. I don't consider that to be disrespectful, and I believe that this thread was started under the same pretense of good-natured humour.
Would you discuss it in that manner with a friend who happens to believe in the Smurf toy god?
quote:Oh but it very much is a battle against those very things! People who convert and live the gospel will not contribute to those evils, and will resist and fight against them. You might think of the missionaries as recruiting soldiers in the war against those things. (I personally believe that's true of the members of any church who sincerely strive to live their religion.)
And attempting to save someone from eternal torment isn't as important as that list?
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quote:People who convert and live the gospel will not contribute to those evils, and will resist and fight against them. You might think of the missionaries as recruiting soldiers in the war against those things. (I personally believe that's true of the members of any church who sincerely strive to live their religion.)
What is the mormon view on the depravity of man?
Because I believe in the doctrine of total depravity, and I think that no matter who you are, you are susceptible to falling into great sin. That's why I've never one to be "shocked" when someone who says they're a Christian commits a grevious sin.
After all, I expect them to sin. God doesn't promise us we'll never sin again if we live the gospel to use your terminology, he just promises that we will be forgiven.
Yes, people who are Christian should strive hard to live a sinless life, and to do what is right, but it's also just not possible. I could go out and knock on a million doors and have a million people all tell me they want to be Christian and live the perfect Christian lifestyle and I've not saved one single sinner.
First of all, because salvation is beyond me and not mine to impart, and second of all, because people don't just wake up tomorrow and not have a sinful nature.
I guess my issue with your post is the first sentence I quoted.
I think I'd rather it were "People who convert and TRY TO live the gospel will TRY not to contribute to those evils, and will resist and fight against them."
I'm just hesitant with committing to the idea that if the whole world were Christian we wouldn't have wars, we wouldn't have conflicts, there would never be any murders or pedophiles again. Of course there would. Because Christian or not, man has a depraved, fallen nature. That's what I believe anyway.
Of course, I believe sincere believers who really are committed to living a Christian life shouldn't cheat on their spouses, kill, rob, whatever. They should love their neighbors as themselves and care about their fellow man. But they're not going to be perfect because I don't believe it's possible for anyone to be.
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quote: Interesting. Not sure why I’m responding here since this is just an obvious Jay is a jerk and I disagree with anything he says tirade. But anyway…..
Did I say I did something impolite or disrespectful? No. As a matter of fact, I was asking about how to be polite to them with the goal being to not hurt their feelings. If you’re referring to me thinking it is funny that someone would ask for a donation when giving out reading material, it is certainly out of the norm for someone to ask for money in this situation. And again, I didn’t make a reference to what I did, just that it was funny. Part of my problem is that I’m probably too nice to them and talk. Just the typical friendly neighborly welcome person. Questioning my character about this makes me wonder if someone doesn’t need to look in the mirror and reflect for a while.
Jay, I don't know you, and I don't have a personal interest in villifying you. I do tend to disagree with you, but I don't hold that against you, and certainly wouldn't use it as a basis for my own opinion. If my comment about people disagreeing with you offended you, then I apologize. It was merely an observation of some pretty consistent Hatrack behaviour.
As I explained in my post, I think that it was probably a misinterpretation on my part. The written word can come across in many different ways when it's read by different people. Rather than attack me, just explain that you meant it differently than I interpreted it, and the crisis of opinions is averted.
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quote:So*….. when the various door to door recruiters from various churches come knocking on the door how does one politely say I’m not interested. I’ve tried the whole I’m in church, like it, run the sound room, blah blah blah. Yet they still keep bugging. I thought it was really funny the one time when they gave me something to read and then asked for a donation.
I tell you what I do, I tell them no thanks, and I wish them a nice day and then I shut the door without giving them a chance to respond.
That may sound a bit rude, but I've experience with people who came to my door and just wouldn't let things alone, no matter what I tried. (no, they were not Mormon missionaries, and I don't see the point in naming the particular faith/denomination)
An exception was a woman from one of the local baptist congregations who came and told me she just wanted to say hello and invite me to come by if I ever wanted to and I told her "Oh, you wouldn't want me, I'm a heathen presbyterian" (because that is a joke between me and my baptist family members) she just laughed and asked me where I went to church and we had a neat 20 minute or so conversation. She never pushed to try and get me to come to her church, and I never pushed to try and get her to come to mine, we just had fun chatting.
And I tell you, if ever I were planning on visiting a baptist church, that would be the one I'd go to. Not that a baptist church would have me, with my heretical doctrinal beliefs. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
You are right. People are not going to be perfect. I will rewrite:
Inasmuch as people live the gospel, they will not contribute to those evils, and will resist and fight against them. You might think of the missionaries as recruiting soldiers in the war against those things. (I personally believe that's true of the members of any church who sincerely strive to live their religion.)
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Am I the only one who keeps reading the title of this thread to the tune of that song that's the theme from "Smallville"?
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Slightly off the topic, but I just wanted to mention that I'm one of those people who, when pushed to do something, tends to push right back in the opposite direction. I am also quite happy to be a complete and total heathen. I have strongly held beliefs which don't seem to match up with any organised religion at the moment.
However, of all the people who have ever discussed their religion with me, I have found LDS missionaries to have been among those who have been most polite and respectful of my own beliefs and choices, without trying to push me to do anything I didn’t want to. Their respect for others encouraged me to read the book of Mormon and I have visited the temple at Salt Lake City.
My friend recently explored Christianity, decided it was not for her and is now being militantly chased by some members of her former church (sobbing phone calls in the middle of the night begging her not to go to Hell), causing her to flee even further from considering becoming a Christian. She tries to keep positive, saying, 'Well, at least they care about me!' but she is getting extremely tired of it all. There is, in my opinion, a big difference between getting a message out there and alienating people by disrespecting their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be, which is, by the sounds of things, what happened to Hobbes.
I hope this post will be taken as it was meant, as I hold all religions and their believers in high respect and hope that one day we will all be allowed to make our own religious choices without censure or complaint from others. In this way, more people might come to explore religions and learn valuable lessons from them, maybe even leading to a more understanding society.
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posted
I don’t want to speak for Papa Moose, but perhaps he feels (as I do) that following the user agreement (as well as basic politeness) by not trying to “compete” while Hobbes was posting about his ongoing conversion does not equal not caring. And to accuse (even in jest) those of us who have a strong faith other than LDS of “not caring” and “not taking an interest in my life” for following said agreement is what I found to be in poor taste about this thread.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Am I the only one who keeps reading the title of this thread to the tune of that song that's the theme from "Smallville"?
quote:I'm just hesitant with committing to the idea that if the whole world were Christian we wouldn't have wars, we wouldn't have conflicts, there would never be any murders or pedophiles again. Of course there would. Because Christian or not, man has a depraved, fallen nature. That's what I believe anyway
Belle, I think I might believe the same thing. I mean...when you said you rather put the TRY to live the gospel instead of LIVING the gospel, I agreed fully because we're human. That's at once a blessing and a failing, because we can never be perfect, but we can do our best to try. It's the intent and trying and resulting actions that can help in whatever it's supposed to. As human beings, though, we're going to find something to argue about, stuff to disagree with, etc.
At the same time, I don't know if I want the world to be entirely Christian. That's probably heretical in some way, but it would be awfully boring if we were all Christian. Other religions are fascinating, and could perhaps be other paths to the truth.
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I think for Hobbes the idea that people on Hatrack didn't care was as riduculous to him as the the idea that he needs saving from his choices.
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So you ask for reasons why people thought this was in poor taste. Two different reasons were given. And now you're just going to lament how easily our culture is offended?
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I can't believe that with the crap against religion spewed on this board, Hobbes is the one getting chastised.
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quote:And I tell you, if ever I were planning on visiting a baptist church, that would be the one I'd go to. Not that a baptist church would have me, with my heretical doctrinal beliefs.
Is Belle's statement here much different than Hobbes's?
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Dags, Lamenting isn't the word that I would have used.
I'm merely wondering why it has taken an entire page of posts to elicit one slightly confusing attempt at explaining why they were offended by such an innocuous post. Given that the tone of this entire thread has been extremely courteous and ,in my mind, respectful, I just can't understand what all the hooplah is about. (Oh yeah...I said hooplah)
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posted
I simply find it amusing that if not for us heathens, pagans and non-believers to sort out first, the various religions would be left with nothing else to do but convert each other.
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