quote:My vitrol is the way I feel about divorce and those who do it. I'm not the only one who feels that way about the subject or subjects involved. Perhaps in todays world a minority voice perhaps.
Then why post? You aren't interested in the opinions of others and, clearly, you are mistaken in believing that others will value your opinion.
Is the only point to be nasty? Are you trying to appear "righteous?"
All I have to say to you is that your statements in this thread make think that two possibilities are in operation here:
1) Either you are so wrapped up in your own sense of morality, and haven't had any experience with the myriad ways that a relationship can be irretrievably broken, or,
2) You were so bruised by a divorce that you have blinders about it and can't see beyond your own hurt.
or both, of course.
I'm hoping #1 is not the truth, because, frankly, it just puts you in the category of "people I'd hope to never be stuck in a room with." If #2 is true, then I urge you to seek counseling to find less self-destructive ways of dealing with the emotional fallout of bad relationships. Seriously, if this attitude arises from a painful episode in your own past, I can tell you right now it is going to reak havoc with your relationships. Not because you have the mindset that divorce is not an option -- that's perfectly fine. But because you will inevitably react with rigid inflexibility in any situation that you feel threatens your relationships. I'm really hoping #2 is not the case either.
But that leaves with the perplexing puzzle of hoping that your attitude is just simply inexplicable.
Look, I hope you never are in a situation where you have to go through the pain and self-doubt of the breakup of a committed relationship. But if you do, I hope you have some way of seeing the other person's point of view, even if that point of view includes wanting the relationship to end.
There is no way for one person to keep the relationship together and healthy. It just isn't possible if both partners aren't willing and working. Period. And even if you find a partner who is just as adamant about divorce as you are, that is no guarantee of anything. Because it takes more to keep a marriage together (and healthy) than a shared aversion to breaking up.
And really, if you concentrate on all the good things that make a marriage, and find a partner who is in synch with you on the goals and commitment to making it a real cooperative effort, you won't have to worry about divorce.
I think my own views on my marriage are similar to yours. I made my decision on who to marry very carefully, and I will not divorce my husband unless something horrible happens, like abuse or unfaithfulness, and even then I would fight to make it work.
But that's me and my husband and our marriage. It's none of my business to judge others on what they're doing with theirs because I know I don't understand everything. I can think they're getting divorced for trivial reasons, but that doesn't mean they're lazy, disgraceful, or terrible people.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: rivka, than that person was abusing your family on an emotional level and cheating on your family by abandoning his responsibility. Fine, I'll accept that.
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Why post? Because I have something to say and will say it. Personally, I don't care if others value my opinion, but I WILL be heard.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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y'all remember my statement about there would be less burning of flags if we only ignored the people who burned them instead of getting shocked and outraged every time they did it?
Occasional is burning a flag here. Turn your attention elsewhere.
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"What is a troll? Impetuous fire; What is a mod? Ice and desire To make him gone... A thread gets locked, And then then it's done, So goes a troll, So e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ends his fun."
*bows*
(You all remember that version of "Romeo and Juliet", right?)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal?"
Mostly physical and sexually with only partly emotional and verbal as counting. It would have to be VERY EXTREME on the last two.[Quote]
Being in an verbally and emotionally abusive relationship I can tell you right now that it is every bit as bad as the physical abuse that can be inflicted! I have read this entire thread and you have contradicted yourself on the "not so much verbal and emotional" soap box repeatedly. Why is that?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "Should the couple be forced to stay together instead?"
No, but they shouldn't divorce either.
"Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong?"
Its not about sticking with something that is wrong, but finding a way at all costs to make it right.[quote]
So it's ok to raise your kids in an environment where all they see is a parent belittling and demoralizing the other, because they hold no respect for them and hold no regard for their feelings? Do you want to live in a world where the next generation is a bunch of self -centered and totally moraless jerks? There is NOT always a way to "make it right at all costs", especially if the abuser is not interested in anything but themselves!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "Sometimes you cannot win no matter what... "
And sometimes you should never give up and never surrender. [quote]
Are we quoting Galaxy Quest now too?
Posts: 115 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Mistakes that serious need mending, not breaking. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
The number of times you have said this, or something similar, is starting to really piss me off. Not everything can be fixed. ESPECIALLY when it comes to humans and especially when it comes to relationships.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I used to be a big proponent of eliminating "No-Fault Divorce."
Now I am very glad to have legal involvement in my divorce kept to a minimum. I have no desire to go through a court and have my wife declared "at fault" and even less to be declared "at fault" myself. And fault is certainly nebulous in my case... more than enough blame to go around.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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My understanding is that LDS Bishops are not allowed to even bring up separation, much less divorce. (They can pursue the seperation avenue after one of the spouses brings it up, but should avoid the position of possibly encouraging it.)
Divorce is wrong IN THAT the events leading up to the divorce are almost never pleasant. BUT-- divorce in the right situations can be like invasive surgery to remove tumors. Let's get that straight right from the beginning:
Divorce is a treatment, not the disease. Sometimes, with a few people, divorce becomes a symptom as well.
A few good Mormon friends of mine have been married in the temple, and then divorced. I would NEVER, not in a gazillion generations, ask them to stay in their marriages. It would be better if both parties had been able to change their lifestyles to allow their marriage to continue; but when one or both parties aren't willing, what else can be done?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
So what about deadbeats? Those husbands/fathers who just bum all day and refuse to work and provide for their families (Papa -- I'm not talking about men who choose to be stay-at-home-fathers.... that is a very different scenario and one worthy of praise).
But Occasional, I'm sure you know the type I mean.
My own pastor quoted this verse to my husband (made him mad) just before he abandoned us for places unknown. When he turned up four years later, he had "married" someone in Florida. Good thing I had finally given up and filed divorce papers or else he would have been a bigamist.
quote:And you also know why I dislike judgmental fundiebots.
Judgmental atheibots are better?
Occasional, you need to realize that a person can't make choices FOR another person. If you are trapped in a marriage that the other person is absolutely committing to RUINING, and they are making no effort at all to make it work, there are limits to how much you should be expected to suffer.
Two good, selfless people can make just about any marriage work, if they try. And you're right that people SHOULD be that way, and they SHOULD try. The reason many people get a divorce, though, is because they're not married to that kind of person. It takes two people to make a marriage work and fix its problems. If one spouse absolutely refuses to help, then there are definitely limits to how long the spouse who IS willing to work at it should be expected to endure.
You hold up Joseph Smith's version of the line about judgment, as though its apparent exception applied to you in this case. It DOESN'T. God wants us to be discerning, and He allows for certain kinds of judgment ... such as a stake president and high council determining disciplinary action, or a bishop offering counsel about a sin. But this kind of universal condemnation of your fellow human beings — especially when you focused it on an individual — is EXACTLY the kind of unrighteous judgment that Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and everyone else who matters has warned us against.
Look to your own sins before casting stones.
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The difference between fundiebots and athiebots is that the latter are right in every particular. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hmm...it has all been said for me - Occ, you are being very judgemental. It isn't pretty, and it isn't evoking anything about the gospel. Are you okay? Is there something else wrong? It's the only explanation I can think of for doing such a concrete evil as kicking someone when they are down like this.
Also, *points* - Mormon guys like this are part of what scared me away from getting married. I'd rather die.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Occasional, you have stated that divorce is wrong unless there is abuse or cheating? And the abuse would have to be physical or sexual--emotional or verbal would have to be severe to even be considered?
But then you concede that if someone is drinking and being critical, that is enough?
Or if they've left the home (and are not having relations with another) that is enough too? You called that cheating, even though you said earlier it had to be *intercourse* in order to be considered cheating?
Why are you contradicting yourself? Even you seem to be "softening" your black 'n' white view in the light of specific events. Maybe your view is wrong (even in your eyes) and you should ammend it as stated here?
Did it occur to you that the divorce that you first harped on falls *well* within your own "acceptable" definition? Then why haven't you apologized for what you wrote then erased, the horrible pain you added to already excruciating pain?
Where is your compassion, humility, and charity?
And on the subject of righteous or unrighteous judgement, how 'bout I judge you to not be a true follower of Christ based on your lack of the above? Would I be out of line in doing so?
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Marry a non-Mormon. I hear we're fun, especially when the alternative is death.
I read this and immediately thought of Prince Humperdink's "Please consider me as an alternative to suicide".
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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And when beverly said "Let's see if I can sum up," I also thought of The Princess Bride. "Lemme 'splain. No, there is no time. Lemme sum up." (Quotation may be wrong, but concept is there.)
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Aw, KQ, I think you and KPC are perfect for each other and I can tell you are very happy, but he wouldn't be perfect for me. That wouldn't work. But that's good! It would kind of weird to have a friend who would like to marry your husband.
I've considered Tom's alternative to suicide, but have decided to take the safer, less dramatic course of refining my filters. I think it's working - my taste improves dramatically the more I date.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I agree that everything to avoid divorce should be done. My parents divorced and both have gone through alcohol treatment, they both agree that the alcoholic problems where a huge factor in the divorce...If they'd gotten treatment earlier they would probably stayed together...If he needs to go through treatment the best thing you can do for him, yourself and your family is helping him go through the process to quit drinking.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Nov 2004
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if you have the commitment to go into a marriage in the first place there should be no need to leave it? thus if you were able to marry without the proper commitment then marriage then is too easy, wasn't there someone who said that the bar for marriage should be much higher then it is now?
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Aw, KQ, I think you and KPC are perfect for each other and I can tell you are very happy, but he wouldn't be perfect for me. That wouldn't work. But that's good! It would kind of weird to have a friend who would like to marry your husband.
*snort*
I meant like mine in the sense that he doesn't condemn everyone who doesn't think like him. I agree, if you married someone like my darling, it would not be good, and if you wanted to marry my darling specifically, well, I'd just have to do something about that. So, yes, it's good. But I do hope that someday you find that perfect guy. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I definitely don't think it's time yet, though, because just reading that sentence made me want to run for the hills.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Occasional, why do you believe what you believe about divorce? What is your argument? All I see is a statement of belief.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Puppy Love. Holy crap, thanks, you guys! I've been having a really rough week, and you folks just made it for me Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Okay, serioulsy, my first thought on reading Puppy/Rat's post WAAAY above was, "Wow, that sounds really wise. I wonder if Puppy's wife is pregnant?"
Don't know why I thought that. . .
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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As for the topic at hand, I spent just shy of 9 years living with him. Things were good for the first 3. Then we had a week from hell that ended up changing our lives drastically. We moved to a new apartment, I lost my job (and I was the main income, bringing home roughly 140% of what he netted plus covering all insurance premiums out of my gross), found out that we were expecting our second child, and got into a car accident all in the span of 6 days. I went into a fairly significant situational depression and he turned away from me. When I was dragged out of my funk by a good friend and gotten back on the right path, I did my best to pull him out of his own depression as well, but nothing I did worked. After 6 years of being ignored, neglected (emotionally and financially, part of his way of dealing with his pain was to spend every penny he earned on video games and concerts with no regard for what the family needed), and finally accused of adultery, I decided it was time to get out.
His father made the decision a lot easier for me, because by this point (late 2002, weeks before our 9th anniversary) we were living with his parents after having been told by our prior landlord that we didn't give notice of our intent to renew in time and were kicked out. I had no vehicle, I had very little furniture (because he destroyed or sold off most of what we had when we moved in with his parents), my biggest item of personal effects was my computer. So the girls and I found an apartment we could afford that was in the school district (so H could finish out the year with her friends). He stayed behind with his parents. Tried to move with us, but realized after a couple days that his clothes kept making their way back to the parents' house after he'd pack them for me to haul in my mother's car. Nope, he didn't help me out with any of the physical labor.
I will say one thing for him. He has been my primary after-school babysitter for the past 2 years. However, I think it's so he can get away with not paying me any kind of support money. Maybe I was stupid, but I agreed to waive any demands for support for any week that he provided at least 80% of the babysitting requirements. And since, based on IL guidelines and his gross salary, that would be $125 a week, he obviously thinks spending he's getting the better end of the deal (and maybe he's right). And he seems to feel that he's spending enough (and sometimes more than enough) time with them, because he has never asked if he could have a weekend day or a holiday or anything like that with them. The kids do love him, but I don't think they want to live with him.
Two weeks ago (after we've been living apart for 2.5 years), he called me late at night and asked if there was any way that we could get back together. I told him bluntly, "it's all up to you, I've done everything I'm capable of doing and I've been rebuked every time." Turns out that his parents are thinking of selling the house and buying a condo close to the other set of grandchildren (and we won't even get into the blatant inequality displayed by the grandparents towards the two sets of children), and if they actually manage to get a buyer, he's going to be homeless. So he's not coming to me with an actual desire to fix the marriage, just to ensure that he has a bed to sleep in. And the fact that he hasn't talked to me about anything, including the weather or television or anything else, since that telephone call confirms my belief that he's once again thinking only of himself.
Since he's proving by his inaction that he really doesn't mean it, I'm not even bothering to think about whether this might be something I want. I hadn't gotten papers filed yet because I just can't afford it on my salary, and my bosses don't do divorce work (not that I'd really want my bosses involved in somethign this personal, to be honest).
Believe me, if I could have my way, we never would have gotten to this point. He would have been willing and able to communicate with me throughout the marriage and we'd have had a renewal ceremony with friends and family at 10 years (since we originally exchanged vows in front of a circuit court judge in a civil ceremony) instead of my sitting at home with the kids trying to figure out how I was going to buy a car on my sole unsupported income and him having fun at yet another friggin rock concert.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Cor and I value marriage as a committment. We respect other's rights to see it differently, but we like our way. I believe it is important to not consider divorce an option. However, when my parents' marriage was obviously irretrievably broken, and she was emotionally abusing the hell out of him, and threatening to suck him into homelessness with her, I counseled him to divorce her. The marriage was over already; he could still be saved, and he needed saving. I also did everything in my own power to help him put her behind him.
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So, yes, it's good. But I do hope that someday you find that perfect guy. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Puppy
