posted
Well first of all, I never said money was the be all end all. But money is necessary to do almost anything.
Ending the Palestine/Israel conflict will come from direct American intervention. Securing a Palestinian state and keeping the Israeli state intact as it is. Giving a lot of aid to Palestine to help them build their nation up out of third world status. And these days, a lot of it will depend on leaning on Israel to make them give Palestine time to secure itself. It will also probably require a trusted third party to provide a peacekeeping force in Palestine.
The populations of both countries are ready, it's the leadership that has always held up the process. But Arafat is gone now, and real pressure and the promise of aid (tied to reform) will get Abbas to uphold his end of any potential deal.
As for Africa. BC, you've either misunderstood me, don't care to understand me, or are horribly wrong. None of which matters to me, because you obviously don't care to be constructive, but prefer to be destructive.
But if you really think that leaving Africa to its devices will NOT make the terrorist problem worse, then you are sadly lacking in knowledge about the current situation in Africa.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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There were stalemates where the advance was stopped or beaten back and the ground behind was consolidated and reorganized.
Even in Europe the Islamic demographic threatens to overwhelm constitutional government where military action has failed. If you do not believe this is a deliberate policy you should read the words of Arafat on the subject of the 'Duty to Breed.'
The same demographic force threatens Isreal itself as naturalized Muslims grow in population at four times the rate of Jews. In a century every country in Europe could have a Muslim majority to vote in a Theocracy.
We face this now and change the hearts and minds of these people now or we face it later when nobody can win. Well maybe the Liberals will makeit so they can, I hope not.
posted
Well, I don't know if I'd call that peaceful coexistance really. Prior to the Crusades, Muslims spent a few hundred years slowly creeping into Anatolia before Christians smartened up and fought back, that's why Byzantium was pretty much a militarized camp for the whole of the Crusades and prior to it. And before that, many generals of Rome led military incursions into Muslim lands, but were soundly defeated many times.
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quote:We do not accomplish the same thing as terrorists with smart bombs and Marines. That is a stupid statement. The goal of smart bombs and Marines and other conventional military tools and soldiers is to defeat another military enemy and to minimize civilian casualties. It is not to defeat the enemy by slaughtering as many innocent civilians on their way to work such that the enemy is too horrorstruck and terrified to keep fighting.
Jackass.
Rakeesh, Whether you agree or disagree with me, I expect common decency and respect when being addressed. I haven't insulted you, I've merely made a statement that you disagree with.
Perhaps I didn't provide enough context in my comparison between terrorists attacks and our conventional military. One of the goals with any military action (especially an occupation) is to make the indiginous population fear/respect the power of the occupying forces. This is what we're able to accomplish using conventional military power. Terrorists obviously don't have this infrastructure and can't compete on a level playing field. They're using tactics that are reprehensible to us, but justified by them to achieve some level of fear and to try to further their own goals.
If you'd like to talk about this, then I'm more than happy to. If you'd like to continue being a insulting ass, then I won't bother responding.
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I want to help Africa precicely because it will hurt the terrorist and make them crazy, I want em crazy, that is when they are easy to spot so they can be killed. I did not say do not help Africa, I just said do not expect it make you any Islamic friends.
Leaving Africa alone just gives Muslims a place to practice genocide and get a feel for the work, bad idea for the rest of us they want to kill.
quote: Leaving Africa alone just gives Muslims a place to practice genocide and get a feel for the work, bad idea for the rest of us they want to kill.
Let's get our terminology correct:
Leaving Africa alone just gives terrorists a place...
posted
Are their a significant percentage of Non-Muslims in the terrorist set these days? I guess it would be clearer to tighten the group of specific Muslims that are being refered to...alright the terrorist subset of the Muslims set does not need a place to practice genocide freely.
posted
Ah, I was right then, you did misunderstand me. Well that, and you don't understand in general.
Leaving Africa alone creates a BREEDING ground for new terrorists. This war isn't all about making America everyone's best friend next door neighbor, it's about stopping a terrorists from becoming terrorists in the first place.
To do that, you erase the causes that lead to them becoming terrorists, and I believe the main cause is poverty. It creates many of the other problems. Fighting poverty also does create a certain amount of good will towards America, not just from Muslims or Africans (which is will by the way), but from the rest of the world, in a time when we could really use a boost in our image.
Edit to add: The majority of genocides that have taken place in Africa have been for ethnic or tribal reasons, not for religious regions, especially in sub-Saharan Africa where Muslims are far less prevelant.
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posted
Lyrhawn: we're talking about Palestinians (there are and long have been Christian and Muslim Palestinians) and Jews in that context, not Christians and Muslims, and they did have a long period of not trying to kill each other.
Also, there were plenty of Christians in Jerusalem getting along just fine with Muslims in Jerusalem; the problems were generally much further away, on borders. Inside the Muslim empire(s), there were long periods of peace.
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posted
My bad, I saw Crusades and went into attack mode.
Yes, you're right, Palestine itself has seen long periods of relative peace and calm before the Crusades.
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quote:To do that, you erase the causes that lead to them becoming terrorists, and I believe the main cause is poverty
I'm sorry -- but I'm not understanding this. You are saying you believe that terrorists become terrorists because they are poor? What about all the countries of poor people, or all the poor people in general who do NOT become terrorists?
What makes you think poverty has a significant impact on this? I thought it was their ideology, not their economic status, that breed terrorists.
(not that I don't think poverty shouldn't be alleviated -- I'm just failing to see a connection between that and terrorism.)
posted
Fugu, I'm weak on my dark ages history, but I rather thought the Jews were in exile during the time you speak of?
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To me though it appears that the Terrorists are trying to start some kind of world war. Getting countrys' they want in it angry so they'll come with America and fight. Then eventually enemies of the countrys' that are fighting the terrorists or that are in Iraq fighting the end of the regime will enter the war on the side of the enemy. It just seems that things are going o to well for them when we're not on their tail.
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Fighting poverty is always a temporary thing, look at Somalia, happy in squalor now that its surplus population was allowed to die in famine after we could no longer protect the aid rolling in from warlords.
In Europe and America we have flattened out population growth, and perhaps in China as well I have heard it is too early to tell there. however this does nothing for us except give us a comfortable living space that is the envy of ever larger populations of people that are living at the reproductive edge of their environments. In terms of species it represents a losing strategy unless everybody is playing the same game.
If we give them help the higher standards will allow more survivors to adulthood who are just as empoverished as ever. I should not have to explain this to any high school graduate.
"Population will grow to the limit of that resource necessary to life that is present in the least quantity."
Take any area where we might want to institute our own superproductive industrial farming technology, in doing so we would replace a hundred thousand farmers with ten thousand, providing more food but putting ninety thousand people out of work and making them hungrier. Do gooding is a very bad business to get into. I trust good old selfishness much more. Much Much more.
We provide a market for their natural resources and protect those interests. We let them buy from us a smorgasboard of technology that they think they cannot live without, we let them create their own place, and we stop any invaders at the borders. Simple, selfish and minimalist, plus we could show a profit.
You have to understand BC is over there and your earlier statements could have been construed as saying that his goal and the goal of the terrorists were the same.
Your clarification doesn't help much.
Lumping "fear" and "respect" together as one item is the problem.
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A piece I've recommended on hatrack before, The Market for Martyrs, siezes upon the fact that suicide bombers are not easily classifiable, economically or otherwise, to argue for a unique approach to ending such attacks.
That is, there is no stereotypical suicide bomber. If anything, there's a bias towards educated middle class people, among them.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ending the Palestine/Israel conflict will come from direct American intervention. Securing a Palestinian state and keeping the Israeli state intact as it is. Giving a lot of aid to Palestine to help them build their nation up out of third world status. And these days, a lot of it will depend on leaning on Israel to make them give Palestine time to secure itself. It will also probably require a trusted third party to provide a peacekeeping force in Palestine.
I really don't see how you believe this to be true. We've tried direct American intervention for my entire life, with several presidents. It doesn't work.
The Palestinian Arabs don't want a separate state that leaves Israel intact... unless they've changed ther demands drasitcally since Arafat died or something.
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posted
It is affluence that has created the terrorist, they would be comical without the oil money and we would be dealing with a much smaller population. It is essentially unearned wealth being spent unwisely. Yes unearned, in that it is not a thing valuable to the people paid for it so it creates a gap in responsibility to the wealth bestowed. Money from nowhere for nothing does not create a more responisible class of leaders.
Our continued dependance on oil is a mercy to the people of this region, because when we do choose to utilize the technology to free ourselves from OPEC we will leave the populace unsupported with an uncaring elite living off stored wealth. They will be forced to find ever more interesting ways to throw away thier lives until they can support the population they have with what they have on hand. At least now the elites see to the minimal needs of the poorest.
posted
Jim-Me: nope, no exile to speak of. Sure, it was post diaspora, but that doesn't mean everyone left, that just means that a lot went different places.
I know that during the crusades jews were for a time banned from jerusalem, but iirc that was by the christians, and I'm talking about some of the pre-crusade period.
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Not everyone left... there was tolerance for a few individuals, but certainly no co-existing nations, agreed?
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Im not sure if anyone really saw this, so me being myself and wanting to get my point across will re-say it
To me though it appears that the Terrorists are trying to start some kind of world war. Getting countrys' they want in it angry so they'll come with America and fight. Then eventually enemies of the countrys' that are fighting the terrorists or that are in Iraq fighting the end of the regime will enter the war on the side of the enemy. It just seems that things are going o to well for them when we're not on their tail.
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There is no force the terrorist could call on to face anything like a united first world. In fact the closest thing to a united Arab effort was the attempt to dislodge Isreal that resulted in the six days war. The end of which was that Isreal beat them all in six days and aquired the lands that have been the source of all the disputed claims every since.
No I think we are faced with many selfish men and their agregate stupidity rather then a vast Arab conspiricy, the obvious plans hopes and desires of the Muslim peoples are dangerous enough but transparent.
There will be no world war, they have no means to bring it forth, I do not doubt that the German's as they were in World War II would conquer all of the middle east as it is today save only Isreal. Egypt would be the hardest fight, with the most armour and air power. We cannot be beaten here in open war by any foe native to the region.
quote:The people currently perpetuation international terrorism-the deliberate targetting of civilians on their way home from civilian jobs-for deliberate, calculated, cold-blooded murder...they're definitely, obviously varelse.
I disagree -- and, in fact, I think this point of view makes the whole definition of "varelse" meaningless. Someone "varelse" is someone with whom communication is absolutely impossible. At worst, terrorists are hostile ramen.
quote: the obvious plans hopes and desires of the Muslim peoples are dangerous enough but transparent.
Hey, BC, could I ask you a personal favor? I'd appreciate it -- as a formerly Muslim people, myself -- if you stopped lumping every single Muslim in with a fanatical terrorist minority. I mean, it's been a few years, but I'm pretty sure that bin Laden and I didn't have similar plans, hopes, and desires.
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There were lots of Jews in Jerusalem during most of the period. It was extremely cosmopolitan.
And as the original statement was that Jews and Palestinians have been out to exterminate each other since the early books of the bible, which I hardly think is equivalent to there have been "no co-existing nations", I hope I've made my point. Particularly as the "rephrasing" is sort of silly -- for very long periods in history there were neither palestinian nor jewish nations, so of course there weren't co-existing nations.
There were lots of Jews. And lots of Palestinians. In the same place, getting along just fine.
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posted
Except for the fact that there was no distinct group of "Palestinians" until less than 100 years ago.
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If they consider themselves Muslims, then that works for me. Lots of Christians would say I'm not a Christian, too, I guess. You know?
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posted
I'm really getting tired of all of the racisim. America(majority) has to be racist to someone group. At times it was Africans, the Irish, any race that is put just diferent for a reason. So now that America(majority) has a new enemy like figure in our lives we have to be afraid and watchfull and totaly disrespectful, i find it terrible how we lost our sense of trust. Down the totilete like a gator, darn.
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posted
It's not just America. It's a lot of the world- or perhaps the whole world in general, but not every individual person. Humans like to distrust, to hate, to lay blame. Result? People die.
I think everyone's tired of it. Shakespeare was tired of it when he wrote Romeo and Juliet.
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The 'wow' was not because it was a stupid thing to say, but because of the direct way you said it, ticking items off on your list as though the solution was obvious. The 'wow' was because I got the impression you were implying anyone who didn't realize how simple the solution was were themselves stupid.
quote:Securing a Palestinian state and keeping the Israeli state intact as it is.
Some would say these goals are fundamentally in conflict. I mean...wow, all we've got to do is fight poverty in Africa and solve the Palestinian issue and terrorism would be curbed thousands fold!
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quote: Are their a significant percentage of Non-Muslims in the terrorist set these days? I guess it would be clearer to tighten the group of specific Muslims that are being refered to...alright the terrorist subset of the Muslims set does not need a place to practice genocide freely.
Rwanda [1994] the Hutus tried to kill all the Tutsis, neither of whom were Muslim.
Bosnia-Herzogovina [1992-1995] 200,000 Muslims were slaughtered by the Serbs.
quote: Dana, were they officials or part of the general public? I do remember explaining to a few friends that it was likely internal.
From that site.
quote: April 19, 1995 started out as just another ordinary day. I woke up, exercised, showered, dressed, and ate breakfast. I turned on the television. I became horrified when I heard the news. A bomb had exploded at the Oklahoma City federal building. The explosion destroyed the building, taking out a children's day care located inside. Preliminary reports linked the incident to Muslim terrorists. I drove to work with my ears glued to the radio. I walked in the office and asked if anyone had heard about the bombing. My supervisor said, "Oh yes, I heard. I think I am going to become a Muslim now, and blow up little children." I was shocked to hear that, but nevertheless, I understood his remarks. He was just reacting to the media's programming. How could he not think such a thing?
From a different site.
quote: From Wednesday morning until Friday afternoon - when suspect Timothy McVeigh was arrested - all persons who appeared "Middle Eastern" instantly became suspects in the fatal bombing of the Alfred Murrah Federal Building. . . . . . . . . . .
Congressman McCurdy indicated on Oklahoma City's KWTV Channel 9 Wednesday morning that he believed Muslim students at the University of Oklahoma were involved.
quote:I'm really getting tired of all of the racisim. America(majority) has to be racist to someone group. At times it was Africans, the Irish, any race that is put just diferent for a reason. So now that America(majority) has a new enemy like figure in our lives we have to be afraid and watchfull and totaly disrespectful, i find it terrible how we lost our sense of trust. Down the totilete like a gator, darn.
I don't think it's just us. People in general have a tendency to fear those who a different from them (xenophobia). People aslo have a tendency to make generalizations. Put the two together and you get racism, paranoia, stereotypes, et cetera.
posted
rivka: I was operating under the implied definition from saying palestinians and jews had been in conflict since the early books of the bible. And there is some continuity among those peoples.
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posted
I didn't mean to make it sound like "do this and it's solved!" like I made some grand realization. These things have been discussed before, but no one ever really seems to want to tackle the issue.
From what I read about the last real deal between the Palestinians and Israelis, it was a done deal until Arafat pulled out at the last minute. Arafat was the reason that deal never panned out. I think by now, most Palestinians and Israelis realize that neither nation is going anywhere. The real contentious issue is what happens to Jerusalem.
As for terrorists and poverty. Not ALL terrorists come from poverty, just like not all people in poverty become terrorists. But as I explained before, poverty is the perfect breeding ground for a terrorist. Young Muslims (and Christians in Africa I might add) looking for money and a different life find both things easily in a terrorist organization. It's an excellent recruiting ground. The same thing happens in America. A disproportionate number of people in the American military comes from those living beneath the poverty line. For many, it's the only way to escape a slum. When you get there, you're fed an ideology and trained to do whatever.
Do I think ending poverty in Africa will end terrorism? Not by itself no, but it would be a massive blow to the terrorist cause. Do I think that solving the Palestine/Israeli problem will end the problem? No, but again, a massive blow, and a massive help to western nations trying to stop terrorism.
Someone on here asked how to end the terrorist problem at its root, that's the best way to go about it, in my opinion.
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quote:The substantial body of empirical results reviewed or derived by Krueger and Maleckova (2003) thus finds “little direct connection between poverty or [poor] education and participation in terrorism.” Moreover, Berrebi (2003) finds that Palestinian suicide bombers have substantially more schooling and better economic backgrounds than the average Palestinian. Berrebi’s statistical portrait reaffirms the portrait that emerges from Nassra Hassan’s (2001) interviews with potential Palestinian suicide-bombers, which in turn sounds exactly like a quote from the literature on cult converts: “None of [the bombers] were uneducated, desperately poor, simple minded or depressed. Many were middle class and, unless they were fugitives, held paying jobs. ... Two were the son’s of millionaires.”
posted
I don't know about you folks, but judging by the advertisements that are now appearing at the bottom of my screen the 'system' has determined we might be tempted to send flowers to Israel.
posted
Great Britiain pulling out of Iraq is not on the news ... just watching. So I think you wife must be mistaken ...
I'd be very suprised if we did pull out of Iraq.
Lyrhawn, that you for persisting to keep the discussion going on how we solve terrorism. I think you arguments are good.
Making Poverty History would IMHO help a tremendous amount in the war against terrorists. But I'd caution against aid ... it has had disasterous consequences in Africa. I'm rather promote trade, but completely free trade will not help quite yet, I think we are going to have to have some positive discrimination towards. Thoughts?
Someone else also made the very pertinent point that finding alternative to Oil and Gas would also make a huge difference. We are currently in a very difficult situation where in order safeguard our way of life we have to rely to quite a large extent on the middle east (they have half the worlds Oil and Gas reserves, Russia has another 1/4) and so consequently we don't give them the space to sort out their own politics and we have the added difficulty of very rich people with no 'work' to do.
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Naw. Your wife musta misheard repetition of old news: Italy is pulling its troops out of Iraq in September.
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Just thought I'd share this. V funny, to be read in a puzzled and incredulous voice ... not angry rant. If you don't find it funny then please trust that it is meant to be funny but possibly strange English humour!
The only additional thing I'd add would be that snow disrupts our tube system more convincingly that those pesky bombs!
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