quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Is there any possiblity that Dumbledore was MISTAKEN in trusting Snape? Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four? I have a theory about this, because it hasn't been fully explained. I think that Harry's mother dying for him didn't just protect Harry from Voldemort... I think it put a barrier between the two, so Harry couldnt hurt Voldemort either. I also thing Dumbledore KNEW he was going to die, and couldn't help Harry kill Voldemort. Thus, when he saw that the barrier was gone between Harry and Voldemort, he was happy because he knew that Harry could now kill Voldemort, whereas leaving the barrier there would allow neither to harm the other. What do you think?
Good points. But, Voldermort touching Harry used to cause him to burn from the poor evil. And Harry touching Voldermort would burn him. The wands may not work against each other either... But, there could be something.. something about that blood...
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No, I knew what you meant. I was just pointing out that since she writes from Harry's perspective most of the time, it will be legitimate for him to remember that and use it in book 7.
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They also still haven't named the bartender of the Hog's Head. I still think it is Dumbledore's brother, who was mentioned last book but has not had any further information revealed about him.
Could he possibly be some sort of hold out line of defense, another wizard with power comparable to Albus'?
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Having now finished my third read, is anyone else curious about Dumbledore saying "Your blood is more valuable than mine"-- and then Harry using his blood to open the doorway? What do you think it will mean down the road? Didn't Voldemort already use Harry's blood? What else will he be able to do with it?
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I'm still reading this thread (on page 5 now) but I wanted to post these ideas while they're fresh in my mind.
Did anyone think maybe the horcrux isn't fake after all? That the last trick of Voldemort for whomever might steal the horcrux was to have it not appear to be genuine? JKR is tricksy like that, she's shown us again and again.
I think it's dead wrong for Harry to send Ginny away because he loves her. It's very patronizing. "You're not up to this, my dear, and I don't want to put you in danger. Let's pretend we aren't together to fool Voldemort and keep you safe." That's bunk. What if Beren and Luthien had done that? If they care about each other they should face challenges together, to the extent they possibly can, so as to grow and learn together, and strengthen each other. Dividing just weakens them.
Saying "you stay here and be safe while I go on alone" is just foolishness. Ginny shouldn't accept that. It's patronizing and presumptuous. Nobody is safe against Voldemort. Ginny is a powerful and courageous person. She should also have input into how they as a couple can most effectively fight against the darkness.
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I don't think Ginny will accept that. She's a Weasley, and they generally don't just accept things well - and she's got more of Fred and George in her personality than anyone else in that family.
I think the 7th book will start with the wedding, and Ginny and Harry will have a bit of a confrontation there, where she will insist upon coming along - or, secretly follow him.
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Given the Fred and George influence, I think Ginny will pretend to agree with Harry and then show up at a crucial point of the book to save Harry's life (possibly sacrificing herself).
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I just finished it. Due to a number of frustrating circumstances I didn't get until last night, but have been totally engrossed in the book since then. First of all, fantastic! This is my favorite of the six and if the seventh is at all like it...it will be amazing.
This thread is awesome! Great ideas and theories floating around in here that have helped me collect my thoughts. *hugs Hatrack*
I have just a few things to toss into the brainwave storm in here. -The Pensieve: It practically became a character itself in this one. Someone mentioned how Dumbledore's posessions might be divvied up...I wonder what will happen to it. We know that Dumbly and Snape have both used it. If Harry can get his hands on it I think it could be an extremely useful tool. Perhaps almost too useful for JKR to include it anymore, but certainly there are memories in there that would answer a heck of a lot of questions.
-A few of you been discussing Snape's look of hatred when he killed Dumbly. Being one of the people who has always loved Snape's character, I'm inclined to believe that Dumbledore and him had a previous agreement for what happened. My theory on the look of hatred is that Snape did indeed HATE the fact that he was forced to kill Dumbly. I think Snape is actually playing for the good side, but I also believe he doesn't enjoy it. I've always felt that Snape's the kind of person who, somewhat like Voldemort, is very solitary. He would rather not be involved at all, with either side, or be taking orders from anyone. The order to kill Dumbly, from Dumbly, was loathesome for the fact that he was used and that he does respect Dumbledore.
This book shows that there are obvious parallels between Snape and Voldy. The major difference is that Snape is capable of love. I'm partial to the liking Lily/guilt of getting her killed theory. I think that will be key to Snape's involvement with Harry...and destroying Voldy in the end.
-The ring: I thought for sure that Harry would take the RAB locket AND Marvolo's ring from Dumbly's corpse, but the ring wasn't mentioned. Maybe it's unimportant because it is already destroyed, but why would Dumbly have kept it around?
-The portrait: I agree with the sentiment that Dumbledore is dead. I don't know where I'm getting this from but I remember reading something about the portraits not really being the 'soul' of the person, if you will. Personality maybe, but I think the portrait, and actual person, are rather disconnected. The portrait will not be Dumbledore in the same way that Nearly Headless Nick's ghost is Nick....if you know what I mean. That's kind of confusing, but nevertheless, the portrait will be present in book 7, and definitely McGonagall's favorite advisor.
-The sisters: If you remember at the beginning Narcissa does some kind of spell on Bellatrix. It seems like they were both hurt. It made me wonder if siblings are unable to harm each other without having the harm reflected back on the attacking sibling...I don't remember if any of the Weasley's had done any harmful spells on each other. Maybe it's only 'dark' spells that do that...Just a thought.
-Avada Kedavra: A few stated that it was disturbing that Snape used it on Dumbly. Disturbing because he used it at all or because it seems so harsh and hateful? I tend to think it is the only form of a death curse, so there are no gentler or kinder ways to kill someone.
*shrugs* Just felt like I needed to get a few thoughts outta me. None of my friends or family have finished it yet. Feels great to be able to discuss it. Thanks! Now...off to read it again!
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I think R.A.B. has to be one of the Blacks. It would make sense that Kreacher(evil little pest) has been hoarding parts of Voldemort's soul... it's just the kind of nasty little thing he's do. Then, since Mundungus(I think it was him) has been stealing from the Black house, Harry would have a harder time tracking down where they all(the horcruxes) went. I don't know if that's true, but it would make for an interesting problem. Here's the only problem I see: this would make book 7 INCREDIBLY long, as Harry has to: Find and destroy 4 horcruxes, find and destroy Voldemort(which I actually don't think will be hard, after the other parts of Voldemort's soul are gone), hook up Ron and Hermione(okay, so maybe not, but I can hope, right?), and thousands of other little things in order to wrap up the series. soooooo... I think it's unlikely that there will be barriers to getting the horcruxes other than the protective spells that are already there.
Another thing- I don't think Harry can be a horcrux at all. He has a full soul inside of him... how could he hold another seventh? I would think the other guy would have to agree to it before you can shove a bit of your soul into him. Voldemort may have tried... but I really do believe he failed. Dumbledore had already explained, I thought, why Harry had Voldemort's powers... the Curse that Backfired. I dunno, just my thoughts.
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How about the Sorting Hat? It goes back to the time of Hogwarts's founders, which might make it attractive to Voldemort... possible, though probably unlikely, since it's sentient and "good."
Even better: how about Hogwarts itself?? If Voldemort managed to pull that off, THAT would be a neat trick, since it's got all of those magical protections to help keep it safe... then the series could REALLY end with a bang, when Harry et al. blow up Hogwarts...
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As far as we know, though, the only time Tom Riddle returned to Hogwarts after he finished his seventh year was when he was asking for a job, but he didn't get it. I don't know that he could have made Hogwarts a horcrux. It's an interesting theory, though. I don't think the Sorting Hat could be one because from the way they were described you had to have to object with you to cast the spell, and Dumbledore would've known if it had gone missing from his office.
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This may be a little off topic but I gotta share. I just got done watching the Sorcerer's Stone and I totally looked at the movie differently. Now that Ive read book six I realize that I am looking at all the movies and books differently than I did. It is weird how much this book changed my perspective on Harry Potter when none of the other books did so!
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"-Avada Kedavra: A few stated that it was disturbing that Snape used it on Dumbly. Disturbing because he used it at all or because it seems so harsh and hateful? I tend to think it is the only form of a death curse, so there are no gentler or kinder ways to kill someone. "
Disturbing because it was explained in the book that in order to cast an unforgivable curse you have to enjoy doing it. Harry couldn't make the cruciatus curse work on Bellatrix because although he wanted to hurt her, he wouldn't have enjoyed watching her suffer.
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quote: They also still haven't named the bartender of the Hog's Head. I still think it is Dumbledore's brother, who was mentioned last book but has not had any further information revealed about him.
Rowling has pretty much verified that he's Dumbledore's brother. I don't think she's trying to hide it, in much the same way that she made it clear that Ron and Hermione would get together.
quote:Having now finished my third read, is anyone else curious about Dumbledore saying "Your blood is more valuable than mine"-- and then Harry using his blood to open the doorway? What do you think it will mean down the road? Didn't Voldemort already use Harry's blood? What else will he be able to do with it?
quote:Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four?
The "look of triumph" occurred when Dumbledore heard that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to create his new body. The news sounded bad, because it sounded like Voldemort had bypassed the protection that Harry had from being with his family, but "The Look" seemed to contrast with that, like Dumbledore knew that it actually weakened Voldemort, rather than strengthening him.
I definitely think the two statements are related.
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quote:hook up Ron and Hermione(okay, so maybe not, but I can hope, right?)
Ron and Hermione have already hooked up. Ron told her he loved her, and they paired off and held hands at the funeral. I think that the fact that they havnen't kissed is a bit of Rowling's comment on the nature of love. Ron and Hermione are really in love, but not in lust. So the "hook up" passed quietly, as their friendship matured into a loving relationship.
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I'm sorry, but I don't have time to read all 5 pages leading up to this one, so I'm just gonna give my input and back it up as much as possible:
1) Ginny and Harry will get back together. Ginny's not the type of girl to just roll over and let Harry go. I've even go so far as to say they'll elope at the beginning of the book - the Weasley parents did, and Mrs. Weasley justified it that they were made for each other. Same justification that Harry and Ginny will use?
2) Snape is a LOT more powerful than anyone is giving him credit for. All the spells and potion stuff he created as the HBP in his textbook are one example, but also he is a strong enough Legilimens(sp?) to either fool Dumbledore or Voldemort, since both were convinced that Snape was working for themselves.
3) This is the big one: Harry is the sixth horcrux. It might be his scar, technically, but either way, Harry is or possesses a horcrux. Here's the justification: p. 506, last full paragraph: "He [Voldemort] seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths... I [Dumbledore] am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your [Harry's] death." I can go more in depth if anyone requests Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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He meant to make the horcrux, but the spell backfired and there was no murder. Even if you can find some justification for that, he still couldn't have cast the spell that actually creates the horcrux. The murder itself isn't all of it. I don't think it's possible that any horcrux came of his attempt at killing Harry.
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Good question. Does anyone remember the description of the ruined house and whether anything was found there?
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I don't think they mention much except that the house was destroyed and Sirius pulled him out of the ruins. (Or did Hagrid pull him out? Sirius didn't want Hagrid to take Harry.)
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Can anyone tell me what the word shufti is? Found on page 460 and used in the sentence
quote:...we're going to be having a shufti to see if it's solid, aren't we, we're not going to be asking, 'Excuse me, are you the imprint of a departed soul?'" -Ron
I'm not too up on my British lingo.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Good book...until the part about how the Horcrux was protected.
One of the worst thought out, idiotic plot devices ever. I didn't like this book very much, to be honest, because of the poor ideas that went into that part, and the poor writing and execution of it.
posted
I am holding opinion to decide if I like this book. If book 7 turns out how it could then this book will be a great addition; however, this book cannot stand on it's own. There is not enough story in this book for it to stand alone. This book needs book 7 unlike other books which were all good by themselves.
I did think she had one of her best ideas with the Horcruxes. I liked it.
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I liked that...but what a lame defence of it, it really blew the suspention of disbelief for me. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them?
Very likely. However, nothing I've read so far seems to vary from what I've read here. (Though I'm not very far in.)
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"since both were convinced that Snape was working for themselves."
What if the way Snape convinced Voldemort that he was loyal was to take a horcrux? Hmmm...must see if I can back that up.
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Okay, I've read the whole theory posting there, and there's nothing there that hasn't already been suggested twelve times here. I don't see how you can say that it spoiled book seven for you if you've been reading this thread. That said, there's nothing that says that any of these theories are definitely what's going to happen.
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"How would Snape stealing something from Voldemort prove that he's loyal to Voldemort?"
No Snape wouldnt have stolen it, Voldemort entrusted him with it and if Snape had gone, for instance, and told everyone, Voldemort would know whats up.
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I think that would be too big of a risk for a loyalty test. Snape fails the test, Voldy loses part of his soul.
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OK, now that I think more about it, here are some more reasons and evidence for Snape being a horcrux (after some of the replies though I agree that the horcrux would not be the reason VD trusts snape):
1. There has to be a reason that Voldemort trusts Snape so much and if he does, maybe he even trusts him with part of his soul.
2. Maybe, Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lilly and when he didnt, as a sign of respect or trust, he gave Snape the Horcrux he had planned for Harry.
3. Now here is the part that really got me, the reason that DD trusts Snape is that he told DD about this, such that, DD now knows that horcrux.
4. Finally, if Harry has to defeat VD and go through Snape, I find it hard to believe that Harry would become a killer (remember how he felt even about killing VD) when it comes to Snape. He may hate him but it would be hard for Harry to kill Snape. Yet, if Snape is a horcrux Harry will find it easier to kill Snape. Moreover, with Snape killing DD that will make the decision even easier for Harry. Thus, DD died so that Harry could actually kill Snape (and many of the other reasons mentioned before).
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MidnightBlue: He meant to make the horcrux, but the spell backfired and there was no murder. Even if you can find some justification for that, he still couldn't have cast the spell that actually creates the horcrux. The murder itself isn't all of it. I don't think it's possible that any horcrux came of his attempt at killing Harry.
But he did kill James and Lily. Either way, Harry was given an extremely abnormal connection to Voldemort. It fits easily enough with Harry watching the snake attack Arthur Weasley from the first-person. Both he and the snake possessing parts of V's soul, that sounds like a pretty strong bond.
It also gives a reason for Harry to die in the end.
Coincidentally enough, independent of my Harry-as-a-Horcrux theory, I'm more convinced Harry is going to live now than before reading HBP. I figured, after OotP, if Ginny Weasley (or whoever the potential love interest was... but I thought the foreshadowing was pretty obvious) lived through HBP, Harry's chance of survival was much greater in book 7. Why? Because Harry's got a connection now. He's got someone he can live happily ever after. Everyone else is either dead or taken - his parents, Sirius, and Ron and Hermione have each other. Ginny's all Harry's got left. Sad.
But alas, it's time for work. I'll try to check up on the forum, but I can't post. Double sad.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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To create a Horcrux requires a murder. The spell rebounded on Voldemort and killed him, now didn't it? And it sounds like a Horcrux is created the instant a murder is committed (Frank's murder and the creation of Nagini's Horcrux, for example - we don't know of any other specific murders). So, in the end, there are four left. The locket, the cup, Nagini... and something either from Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. However, the only surviving relic of Gryffindor is the sword, which Dumbledore has safely preserved, and we have no idea if a Ravenclaw relic exists and whether Voldemort has or could obtain it. My theory is that, yes, Harry is a Horcrux, and after destroying all the others Snape and Wormtail will betray and weaken Voldemort, if not kill him, reducing him to the shadow that he was. Harry, being the last Horcrux, must make one of the most difficult acts of compassion possible - he must love and sympathize with Voldemort. All of book six details Tom Riddle's somewhat sad and disturbing life. Harry will make the final leap, and this act will destroy the shred of Voldemort's soul that lies within Harry's body.
Rowling really is good with her characters. The similarities between Riddle and Harry are overpowering, from their mundane names and ordinary and tragic backgrounds to their love of Hogwarts. Riddle is what one would expect from someone with Harry's life. Lack of parent figures, downtrodden and abusive childhood - these are the things that create the monsters in our society. And yet Harry is not a monster. He is not Riddle. He is, as Dumbledore said, extraordinary.
And this book finally made me understand Snape. If you believe that Snape was in love with Lily Evans, as I do, then you can understand why he hates Harry with such a burning passion. Another child with a downtrodden life with no one to help him, and here's this beautiful young creature who's willing to stick up for him, who sees James Potter as the arrogant bully he is. And yet, Snape hates his muggle parentage, and he hates himself, and so he feels obliged to both hate and love Lily Evans. He can never express his feelings for her. She comes from a bloodline much like his, but instead of being this awkward, unhappy little thing like he is, she's a brave, beautiful, spirited young girl. She's both what he hates and would love to be.
And then she goes and gets married to the prime tormentor of his youth. And they fall in love, and they move away, and lead this happy life that has always been denied to him. So he loses hope, and he becomes a Death Eater, hating the things he can never have. But while in service to the Dark Lord, he becomes the accidental perpetrator of Lily's murder and death, and he discovers that even though he can never have this glorious life, he still never wanted to extinguish it, and, full of grief, he goes back to the other side.
Snape hates himself. It's why he condemns himself to live among Muggles. He exiles himself to the world that made him weak, he feels.
But that doesn't mean he can't hate Harry. Harry is the living, breathing symbol of what's been denied to him. James Potter, his childhood villain, walking and talking with Lily Evans's eyes. A perpetual reminder of his failure.
Hell, I'd be pretty mad, too. Detentions whenever I can give them out.
EDIT: Also, how long until a Harry Potter MMORPG comes out? I can just see it. HARRY POTTER: THE SECOND WAR. You'd run around magical places putting xp points into Charms, Transfiguration, Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, etc., fighting for the Ministry or Dumbledore or Voldemort or whatever.
Hey... I was joking, but that would be a pretty cool idea.
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Did you guys never read fairy tales, or the Ulster Cycle, or anything as kids? Kids love dark stories, and they help them to learn to deal with life.
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This interview is from before book 6 came out, but it might have some impact on the current discussion.
quote:I thought that I would give you something though, rather than get to the end of today and think that I have not given you a lot. There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. If you want to speculate on anything, you should speculate on these two things, which will point you in the right direction. The first question that I have never been asked—it has probably been asked in a chatroom but no one has ever asked me—is, “Why didn’t Voldemort die?” Not, “Why did Harry live?” but, “Why didn’t Voldemort die?” The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn’t he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die—I will put it that way. I don’t think that it is guessable. It may be—someone could guess it—but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy. I’d better stop there or I will really incriminate myself. The other question that I am surprised no one has asked me since Phoenix came out—I thought that people would—is why Dumbledore did not kill or try to kill Voldemort in the scene in the ministry. I know that I am giving a lot away to people who have not read the book. Although Dumbledore gives a kind of reason to Voldemort, it is not the real reason. When I mentioned that question to my husband—I told Neil that I was going to mention it to you—he said that it was because Dumbledore knows that there are two more books to come. As you can see, we are on the same literary wavelength. [Laughter]. That is not the answer; Dumbledore knows something slightly more profound than that. If you want to wonder about anything, I would advise you to concentrate on those two questions. That might take you a little bit further.
posted
I'm suddenly reminded of the Lloyd Alexander books.. A character in the Taran books also had a horcrux... remember?
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I don't think the books are particularly well-written, though she's getting better with each one, I think. (I don't think tricky plot twists make for a good book. They show the hand of the author too powerfully, maybe. They keep reminding us that this story is partly farcical, which it's supposed to be, which is funny and cool, but which does serve to remind us of the author behind it all, teasing us and tweaking things. The best books don't have authors sitting there winking at us, you know? The best books just are.) But with every book she comes up with one or two new things that are wonderful and real. Things that resonate inside you because you've always known they are true. The enormous protective power of Lily Potter's love for Harry is one of those things.
The one that struck me in this book was when Dumbledore said to Harry, "[Voldemort] was in such hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole."
It's things like that that make me love these books. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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In talking with my son about D&D, we realized that Voldemort is a lich. Although the requirement of a murder isn't something we came across, the horcrux idea isn't really so new. Liches do have to be really evil though.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I don't buy into the HP is a horcrux theory. I just don't see Harry's similar abilities as parts of LV's soul. A soul is so much more than just a few abilities. It is possible that some of those abilities Harry would have had anyway but he is linked with LV because of the deflected curse.
What if R.A.B. is someone we already know but we don't know them by those initials? Kinda like Tom Riddle changes his name to Lord Voldemort. It would take a pretty powerful wizard to get through to the horcrux in order to take it....
I really must go to bed now. Finishing the book and then reading 7 pages of posts is making me sleepier Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I had posted on a completely different forum that, IMO, the biggest evidence against RAB being Regulus Black is that everyone thinks that's who it is I'm too used to being fooled.
How many of Harry's "similar abilities" are just extraordinary talents that he, being the son of two extraordinary wizards, already would have had, and how many are things he got from V?
1) He's a parseltongue. 2) He and Voldemort have a very, very easy time into each other's minds accidentally when they're not trying to block each other. 3) The Sorting Hat wanted him to be a Slytherin... which Dumbledore said was major Voldemort vibes.
It's late, and I know there's more, but I'm pretty sure those are the 3 big ones. To me it seems like that's a little heavy for just a curse that left a scar.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I don't remember Voldemort saying that it was at all related to Voldemort that the Sorting Hat wanted him to be in Slytherine, but I could be wrong.
As for RAB being a new character, JKR has said that it is possible to guess who it is, and that she's not introducing any new major characters in book seven. Any new characters will not be important, though there may be major characters who've only been mentioned; we might not have really met them yet.
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