posted
I can be comfortable with the idea that God became human to provide us with an example. I just can't buy into this idea that someone had to suffer to pay for our sins and that's what he did. It doesn't make any sense to me. People are welcome to continue to try to make it make sense to me, of course. (If you say it's all about faith and I just don't have it, well, then what can I say. I guess you're right.)
Is this view of dying in payment for our sins "dogma" in all Christian denominations, or, in some faiths, can you merely believe the former?
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I'd have to defer to those who've studied this from an academic perspective. I think the reference to Scripture in explaining the necessity of the sacrifice (specifically the "blood") is ultimately circular. It's important because Scripture says it is. And it comes down to faith.
But, I do think there's some fascinating studies into what this meant to the early Christians and why specifically a blood sacrifice would've made sense, etc. Why a death was the price of atonement.
I don't have a ready answer for that. Or even much of a thought. I don't deny the sacrifice, but I also don't claim to understand it. I don't know if it necessary to my faith, but I do agree that it is a major tenet of the religion I practice. That without that sacrifice the way to eternal life would be barred.
On the face of it, I also think that God could do whatever God wants. So, what barrier to salvation could there possibly be if God didn't want it there? Why would God demand a life as the price of opening the path?
Or...was it the humans of the time? Suppose the limiting factor was the human being. If the people then would only understand and believe the extraordinary and the sacrificial, then the point of it all is found inside our own cognition, not in God's.
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posted
Another thing to look at is Christ's role as Redeemer. I'm skimming through "Answers to Gospel Questions" by Joseph Feilding Smith, so I might wander. "Our Redeemer came into the world to obtain mastery over death." We in the LDS faith, believe that God the Father (God) and God the Son (Christ) are two completely different people. Christ came to Earth to get a body and die just as we do. But, He was going to be resurrected to show us that it in fact, can be done. With the knowledge he gained through this experience, he will help us at the time of the Resurrection to obtain victory over death just as He did.
Keep in mind that one of the reasons for us coming to earth is to get a body. Once resurrected our spirits and our bodies will never be separated again.
Now for me to continue on with this discussion, you need to understand what we call "The Plan of Salvation." Here's a breakdown:
Premortal Existance: This is just what it says. This describes the time prior to us coming to Earth and is the time The Plan was devised. During this time, we had no body and during the majority of the time we existed as "intellegences" waiting to be organized. A few things to note about this time (these are taken by a lesson by Ted Gibbons):
--We have always existed in some form. --We were begotten there as children of God --Gender is a premortal characteristic --Earth was created as a place to prove us. --We met in counsel and listened to the Father's plan and then to an opposing plan presented by Lucifer --One third part of the Father's children destined for this earth followed Lucifer in his rebellion and were cast out with him.
Mortal Life:
Basically, this is the here and now. We were sent here to obtain our bodies and prove ourselves to God. What we do here, determines what rewards are given after death.
After Earth Life:
This is were things get complicated. But, once you get a basic understanding, it shouldn't be too bad. There are two timeframes we should concentrate on:
--Prior to the Resurrection:
A person dies but the Resurrection hasn't taken place yet, now what?
During the time before the Resurrection we are sent to one of two places: Spirit Prison or Spirit Paradise. The easiest way to describe this is the good spirits go to paradise, while the bad spirits go to prison (It's a little more complex than this, but this post is getting really drawn out). During this time, those spirits in prison will have a chance to hear and accept the gospel at which point they will move to paradise.
--After the Resurrection
Once we are reunited with our bodies, we are sent to one of four different places: Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, Telestial Kingdom, or Outer Darkness. These are usually compared to the Sun (Celestial), Moon (Terrestrial), Stars (Telestial), and the darkness (Outer Darkness). These comparisons, refer to the "degree of glory" each kingdom has.
This is a basic outline of The Plan of Salvation. It is key to understanding some of the things that have been and will be brought up in this discussion by other Latter-Day Saints. With this outline laid out, I can go into Christs role a little more in depth.
But, that's another post.
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posted
Okay, now to the role of Redeemer. This shouldn't be too long. Now that we have a basic understanding about The Plan, we can hit the nail on the head.
In the scriptures, we are taught that no unclean thing may be in the presence of God. If we read through the Bible, we see that very few people have actually see God. This is simply because there have been very few people clean enough to be in His presence. The story of the brother of Jerod is a prime example of this.
Now, we come to Earth and what do we do? We sin. Like crazy! So how then do we expect to be in the presence of God after we die? No person on Earth (besides Christ) is sinless. Therefore, no person but Christ can even be around God. Kinda sucks, eh? Well this is where Christ comes in. He came to Earth and through his godly power, kept himself alive to feel the pain of every sin. The pain was so great, he bled from every pore and caused him to question whether he should continue. Because he did this, He can step in and through the process of repentance, take our sins upon himself making us pure once again. In effect He is a Mediator.
I hope this explains some things.
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quote: In the scriptures, we are taught that no unclean thing may be in the presence of God.
quote: No person on Earth (besides Christ) is [clean]
To me, this just doesn't fit with the LDS view that we're sent here to learn. To get the right answers you have to get the wrong answers sometimes. So long as your learn from your mistakes, the mistakes are worth making. I don't know any teacher that would declare a student horribly unclean just because they got a wrong answer or two.
If God sent us here to defile ourselves, that's God's fault, not ours. I don't understand why WE should have the threat of eternal suffering for something we have no control over.
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quote:If God sent us here to defile ourselves, that's God's fault, not ours. I don't understand why WE should have the threat of eternal suffering for something we have no control over.
Interesting enough THAT is why we have Christ's Atonement. Because of this thing called "Justice" our sins would automatically cause us to eternally suffer. However, now that Christ suffered FOR us there is a way back to God's Presence because we can now be forgiven of our sins. In other words, Christ made it possible for us to get the answers wrong without making us eternally suffer for our mistakes at a cosmic level.
I have heard it described somewhat like the law of Conservation of Energy. In the mortal state all things lose energy and eventually desintegrate. Sin works as a spiritual desintegration, eventually bringing us tremendous suffering after death if not now. Christ, as a generator of spiritual and even physical energy, can replenish (or change) our natures so that the law of Conservation of Energy does not have full effect on our spirits. Eventually, this Abundance of Energy eminating from Christ will quicken dead bodies and make them immune to degeneracy of body and spirit. Now, without Christ all things would eventually lose Energy and become desintegrated into the basics of existance.
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quote:If God sent us here to defile ourselves, that's God's fault, not ours. I don't understand why WE should have the threat of eternal suffering for something we have no control over.
I want to concentrate on the second sentence mostly.
The fact is, we do have control over being here. Every one of us agreed to the Plan prior to coming here. I can break it down even further: You wanted a body. But, you had to come here and prove yourself worthy of having it.
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quote: Because of this thing called "Justice" our sins would automatically cause us to eternally suffer.
That doesn't sound very just.
quote: I have heard it described somewhat like the law of Conservation of Energy. In the mortal state all things lose energy and eventually desintegrate
I don't know how to respond to this metaphor because that's not what the law of Conservation of Energy is. It states that energy can be converted from one form to another but it can not be destroyed.
quote: The fact is, we do have control over being here. Every one of us agreed to the Plan prior to coming here. I can break it down even further: You wanted a body. But, you had to come here and prove yourself worthy of having it.
Thank you scottneb, I'd forgotten about that part. That does make it consistant.
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posted
According to Genesis, all the racial lines currently living on earth are descended from the three sons of Noah--Japheth, Ham, and Shem. Caucausions are usually understood to be the sons of Japheth--thus putting Europeans in the same category as Japanese, Chinese, and other Asians. Negroids are usually understood to be Hamitic--descended from Ham. The Semitic peoples, descended from Shem, are principally Jews and Arabs. Since Jesus was born a Jew, He was Semitic.
However, if this really made any diffence, only Jewish males could be saved. But in fact, in taking Jewish heredity upon Himself, Christ in truth took took all humanity upon Himself, so that He could become the Second Adam (see 1 Corinthians 15:45) the federated Head of the entire human race.
Thus Paul made that famous declaration that at once elimates all racism and sexism and classism: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28; NIV} He then added in the next verse: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
So in Christ we are all Semetic, we are all children of Abraham, and of Shem, because we have been joined to Christ. Thus Paul hits it both ways. In one sense there are no racial distinctions in Christ. In another sense, we are all constituted Jews--the Israel of God, the promised people--in Christ.
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First, from a metaphysical point of view, it seems clear that the reason for Christ' sacrifice was the need to balance two aspects of God's nature. If God is perfectly just he cannot be merciful, for mercy implies sidestepping consequence for the sake of reducing suffering. The converse is also true- if God is merciful then he is not completely just.
This must hold true regardless of whether God has external constraints or is merely internally consistent.
This leads to the next question- what does it mean to be just? Justice is inevitably tied to standards of behavior. If we believe that there are standards of behavior which hold true for all people in all circumstances (a belief which is necessary if one believes in perfect justice) then we may term these immutable laws "eternal laws". Justice, then, means the execution of eternal law. This leads to the next question- what are the eternal laws?
This is where the divergence seen in different Christian sects occurs. Most protestants would assert that eternal law is simply whatever God decides is right. From the Mormon perspective, there are fundamental truths outside of God and by which God is constrained. I hold to this perspective, and I further believe that God also gives to different people at different times a set of laws which, while not directly tied to eternal law help enable the people to live according to eternal laws. Jesus illustrated the possible existence of this type of law when he overturned or minimized the importance of many of the Jewish laws which, though given by divine decree, had been changed by the recipients so that the laws were decoupled from their purpose. So while these "meta-laws" are built, maintained and modified by God to fit the specific circumstances of the people they are given to, they are not the same as eternal laws and hence while transgressing these laws may carry temporal penalties they do not carry eternal penalties. Eternal laws, however, carry inescapable consequences which last eternally. The eternal laws are in fact built into the fabric of the universe and do not require enforcement any more than the law of gravity requires enforcement. Thus, from this viewpoint, each action carries with it a natural consequence which is inescapable.
This is all tied to my posts on KarlEd's thread at this point. Just as pain exists as a learning tool imposed by biology and not as a necessary indicator of divine displeasure, so all negative consequences are the direct result of poor choices that we make and actions we take.
However, there is one important caveat: we do not suffer due to the consequences of only our own choices, we also suffer due to the choices of others, and we also cause others to suffer for our choices. This is a function of the artificial society built up by humans. Because our society functions according to artificial and not eternal laws, people can cheat the system- for example, a man may be able to build a fortune by robbing and plundering others, and yet he may live to a ripe old age and die in his sleep while much better people than he suffer horribly. This a distortion of the purpose for pain, as I discussed in the other thread. If pain is meant to help us learn then when we cause pain to others we destroy the purpose for pain, for unnecessarily causing pain to others does not help them to learn.
When people die in this state then, each one goes out of this life with an unbalanced tally, as it were. Eternal law holds (in my formulation of it) that we all must feel the consequences of our actions, learn from those consequences and thus progress. But human society has been manipulated by us to help us escape the consequences of our actions, and to the degree that we are able to avoid consequences we retard our ability to learn and progress, and to the degree that we injure others we impede their progress as well.
Further, the ability to learn and progress and feel the consequence of our actions must somehow be linked to the possession of a physical body. Perhaps this, again as in the idea of the physical laws of the universe, is linked to the arena in which eternal laws (such as the law of gravity) hold sway. Whatever the reason, by the manipulation of society to escape consequences we have impeded our own progress and thus everyone of us is damned- we cannot progress for we have evaded consequence while we had bodies, and we continue to exist after death but we are disembodied and thus our ability to effect change (and presumably to feel the consequences of our actions) has been diminished.
The only way for things to be brought back into balance is for us to obtain our bodies again as well as to escape the artificial system we created in which we decoupled action and consequence. This is where Christ comes in.
According to Mormon scripture:
quote: And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.
And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.
So the resurrection is tied to the suffering of Christ. I don't think I have ever heard of any theory as to how Christ was able to effect the resurrection, and I won't speculate here. But I will speculate as to what role he fulfilled in the scheme I have outlined above. Christ fulfilled eternal law in that he did not manipulate the system to escape consequence. Indeed, since he did no wrong he had no need to fear the negative consequences that the rest of us do. For that reason he was not subjected to the damnation I mentioned- being disembodied with a negative balance sheet. However, he also suffered the consequences of the choices of others. Indeed, in the atonement he suffered all of the bad consequences anyone inflicted on anyone else, or even on themselves. How this could occur I have no idea, but if we take it as a given that he did, Christ was now in a unique position. As he was free from the condemnation of eternal law he could take his body back with no negative consequences awaiting in abeyance. Perhaps this is why he could resurrect. But to allow other men to resurrect the balance sheet had to be corrected. All men had broken eternal laws waiting to slam consequences down on them if they picked up physical bodies again. By taking upon himself the painful consequences of their poor choices, Christ could allow men to be resurrected. However, standing between mankind and their consequences left over from their sojourn on earth did not change the nature of the men for whom he suffered, and if allowed into groups again, mankind would undoubtedly revert to forming their artifcial communities which, in part, allow men to abuse one another and avoid consequences. Perhaps this is why mankind is divided up by God into the communities they choose to form- in Mormon doctrine there are at least four of these communities. One consists of those who reject Christ's sacrifice for them completely. One is made up of people who love to murder and lie and so on. One is made up of mediocre sorts and one is made up of the really good people. Each one of these divisions allows people to learn and progress to the degree which they are willing to accept- from those who don't learn at all to those who learned very little on earth to those who mostly figured things out. From that point forward there will be no more shielding between eternal law and consequences- death cannot hold the consequences in abeyance, for everyone is immortal, and the artifical contrivances of human culture cannot put it off indefinitely- in eternity all consequences must be felt eventually.
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Now that we have a basic understanding about The Plan, we can hit the nail on the head.
