posted
What a tragic incident. I hope that the jury recognizes that there is no reason to excuse beating a child to death.
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:n 2002, the Florida Department of Children and Families placed the boy in protective custody after he had been admitted to the hospital repeatedly for vomiting, the Tampa Tribune reported. He was returned to his parents Dec. 14, five days after his third birthday. The boy slipped into a coma on Jan. 22, and was taken off life support six days later
Florida's DCF is notoriously inept. This kind of thing just keeps happening there despite repeated shakeups in the department and JEB!'s supposed focus on fixing the problems.
Seriously, I hate that agency with a passion. I feel very sorry for the people who have to work there as their professional reputations must be mud at this point.
The "motivation" in this particular case makes it startling and especially poignant, but the fact is that violent people in Florida are having their children returned to their custody all the time and the result is all to predictable.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:In 2002, the Florida Department of Children and Families placed the boy in protective custody after he had been admitted to the hospital repeatedly for vomiting, the Tampa Tribune reported. He was returned to his parents Dec. 14, five days after his third birthday. The boy slipped into a coma on Jan. 22, and was taken off life support six days later.
I can't believe they were unable to find any evidence of abuse to keep him away from his parents in a situation where he was repeatedly admitted to the hospital. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
The world is indeed a sick place. What happened here is wrong on so many levels and makes me both sad and angry. The vengeful, perverse part of me hopes the dad ends up in prison and is made some big burly guy's ummm...special friend before getting pummeled to death.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:it is possible that the father's "gay panic" defense might come into play, especially after witnesses tried to explain the father's motive
The moment this becomes an excuse for torture and murder...
Why is this an excuse? How can it be an excuse for *any* monsterous behavior? How can such things exist in the same country where violence against a gay person is a "hate crime"?
It don't make no sense.
And the mother who didn't report this.... Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ludosti: What happened here is wrong on so many levels and makes me both sad and angry.
It makes we both angry and sad to think that an adult could justify beating a three year old for any reason.
It makes me angry to think that beating a child would some how teach the child to fight.
It makes me sad to think that anyone believes that fighting is a sign of masculinity.
I makes me angry to think that some one is so confused about gender and sexuality that they believe agresssion and violence (or the lack their of) are synonomis with sexual orientation.
It angers me that child protective services would return a child to a home where there is a history of obuse without strict oversight.
It saddens me that a mother would stand by her husband after he had beaten a her child to death.
It sickens me that homophobibia is allowable as a defense in court.
I saddens me that people suggest that punishing this guy with a rape, a beating or an execution somehow compensates for any of the wrongs that have been done.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I remember parents describing how they'd let their less-than-6-months daughter cry and cry, because they were convinced that she was just doing it to manipulate them, and they had to show her who was boss. The girl can't speak, pick her head up, or control her emotions, but they're already fighting her.
I have heard of a father who hit his baby to make it stop crying. It was a big revelation to him that picking it up worked better. This guy's thoughts seem similar. The way to make a tough kid is to give him so much love he doesn't need to wonder any more. At least, it's worth a try!
What messes people up this bad? Well, really, I think we have the answer: they got abused, too, and they're passing it on. "For Your Own Good," they may say (and that's also a title of a book on child abuse, by Alice Miller).
Gordon Dalbey wrote about this dynamic. He warned his little boy, the bathroom floor's wet, don't come charging in. Little boy forgot, and came charging in. Dalbey could have let him fall and scolded him when he was crying, to show him how tough the world is and how he'd better follow the rules. Instead, he caught him before he could hurt himself, to teach him that he was loved. When I have children, I want them to learn that they are loved.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Wow. It's kind of sad that on any given day I can find another justification for my career choice.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
::shrug:: personally, I would let the child slip and fall, not scold them, be loving and comforting to them afterwards, to let them learn that the world has consequences, but they are loved anyway.
But I'm such a mean Mommie.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:I have heard of a father who hit his baby to make it stop crying.
It's easy to see something like this and be apalled. However, until you wake up for the fifth time at three in the morning, you don't know how much restraint you actually have. I'm not directing this at you, Will. I'm just making a point. And please don't think I'm justifying hitting a child, I just know how surprising it can be to have to hold back that tendancy.
Their are times when babies just cry for hours (especially while teething or if your baby is cholicy). A human baby's cry is one of the most unbearable sounds to the adult mind. It's like that for good reason, nature is telling you "make the baby stop or I will make a nut case out of you." Women are naturally attuned to deal with this in a fix-the-problem sort of way, while men usually deal with it in a make-it-stop kind of way.
Some people, when placed in extreme situations will make extreme choices. Sometimes those choices turn out to be horrifically wrong.
But this man in the article, forced his baby boy into a box while the baby peeed on himself and sat in his own vomit (this is making me cry). On top of that, he would hit his own child on the head repeatedly. This man made no mistake, this man is evil.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: I remember parents describing how they'd let their less-than-6-months daughter cry and cry, because they were convinced that she was just doing it to manipulate them, and they had to show her who was boss.
I'm not quite sure about the exact age, but I know of many cases where this is precisely what parents should have done.
I have a niece who would cry whenever she was not held. After several months of holding her constantly, my sister was a total wreck. Finally, her doctor advised her to put the baby down and let her cry. The first night, she cried for over an hour before she finally went to sleep. My sister says it was the longest hour of her life. The second night, the baby cried for about 10 minutes. The third night she cried for under a minute and then went to sleep.
I'm told that this is a fairly common thing with babies. While I know some parents who might take a different approach, most would agree that letting a 6 month old cry when you know its needs have been met is neither abuse nor neglect and to compare this to the parent who beats their child to death is offensive.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Rabbit, six months is generally accepted as the cut-off before which a baby should NOT be allowed to just lie there and cry (except perhaps colicky babies). I suspect your niece was at least 8 or 9 months, as the behavior you describes often crops up about then.
As far as this article/incident . . . Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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1) I'm glad the mother is being charged with neglect. She could have done something, and didn't, and that's negligence. She shouldn't get off scott free just because she wasn't the actual murderer.
2) the "he might be gay" defense is bunk. This guy had serious problems, and the gay thing, I think, is just an excuse.
3) If a six-month old baby has been fed, changed, and is safe within a crib, I don't have a problem with letting them cry. It's not about "showing them who's boss" it's about letting the child learn how to comfort himself and put himself to sleep.
4) I would have let the child slip too, but caught them before they hit their head or got hurt seriously - because like beverly I think kids need to learn there are consequences in the world and that the world isn't always a safe, happy place and they should learn to pay attention to warnings. Then they would have been cuddled and loved afterwards, so they learn two things - the world is not always safe, but my mommy does always love and want to protect me.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Wow, I have some reservations about the idea of "letting" my child slip. There have been many times when I've let my kids take the consequences of their actions (i.e., being pleasantly sympathetic when they've left projects to the last minute but not helping them in their late-night scrambles to finish), but to let them fall? I do understand what you are both saying, but... there is a difference between helping them deal with the consequences of a fall and standing back and LETTING them fall. No way I would let them fall. There are enough falls in a person's life. I'll catch them whenever I humanly can.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
When you are teaching a baby to walk, you have to let them fall. They have to understand that they are doing it on their own. If you catch them every time, they will learn that they will never fall because Mom and Dad will always catch them and will have a harder time walking on their own.
I let my son fall all the time. But when he takes a few steps, I congratulate him as if he won the World Series single handedly. (But he also falls because he's laughing too hard to stand.)
[edit] Don't mother birds actually THROW their chicks out of the nest?
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Here are some of the reasons behind why I let my children fall:
My parents are very compassionate people, perhaps to a fault. Particularly my mother. She had a very unhappy childhood, full of neglect and criticism, and she was bound and determined that her children would never know pain or discomfort if she could help it. She sheilded us from a lot of the natural consequences of our actions.
I remember actually being bothered by this as a child. I remember feeling that I was the sort of individual that really needed to learn wisdom through my own mistakes--I'm not very good at learning from other's mistakes. Sure enough, when I left home, I made some very foolish choices, caused myself and others buttloads of pain, and proved myself inept at making adult judgements.
I don't blame my parents for this, precisely because of their profound love and caring. How can I complain when I know they were doing the absolute best they knew how?
These things instilled in me a powerful sense of compassion because of the great kindness shown me every day of my life, but also a passionate feeling that my children should know the consequences of life. I would stop them when the consequences were dangerous, of course, but when they were "just ouchies", minor pain that fades in 5 minutes, I wouldn't stop them.
My sister is very much not this way. She panics and is "overprotective" (at least to me). Possibly as a result (or not) when her children *do* fall, they are completely unprepared for the result. They get hurt very badly. And her panic at their pain reinforces their fear in response to what happened.
If my child falls, and I know there is no actual injury, I remain calm and soothing. Well, I try to remain calm even when there *is* injury. But when there is possibility of serious injury, I do everything in my power to prevent it--particularly considering how young all my children are right now.
I am not here to sheild my children from pain. But I am here to love them, support them, and give them the strength they need to believe in themselves.
Incidentally, none of our three children have ever had serious injury until just last week when our oldest decided to stick his hand in a moving piece of machinery. You can bet I would have stopped that had I been aware of what was going on.
Fortunately for us, he only needed stitches in his head. His hand was roughed up, but the bones were fine. We never scolded our son for it, but he said of his own will, "I promise to never, ever do that again!" That is a good thing.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
We're getting off topic, but please note that I said I would let the child slip but catch them before they hit their head or was injured.
I let my kids fall all the time like scottned said - it's necessary to learn to walk. However, one should take reasonable precautions, like covering up the brick fireplace hearth and making sure all sharp corners of tables are padded, etc. before letting a baby experiment with walking in a room.
I do feel, however, that I would do my children more harm by over-protecting them than if they got an occasional bump or bruise during childhood. I'll trade a small, quick-to-heal bruise for a good life lesson that will prevent major harm later on every day.
Note we are not talking about things that would cause serious injury - obviously my role as a parent is to protect them from serious harm. But learning about life does require a few bumps and minor injuries along the way, and sometimes the trade off is worth it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Rabbit, I didn't have a story about parents letting a 6-month-old cry because there was nothing else to be done; I had a story about parents letting a younger child cry because they needed to teach her not to be manipulative. You might still be offended -- I don't know -- but I think it makes a big difference!
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I understand the viewpoint. I have four kids, 14 - adult. They are resilient and strong and good. They have fallen, physically and otherwise, many times. They still do. I think it is important that kids know their parents are there to help them pick up after a spill or a fall. I don't think we disagree on this.
But in THIS case, this specific case, I can't imagine seeing them about to fall and standing back. "Why didn't you catch me?" "I could have caught you, but you needed to learn a lesson." It is the deliberateness that bothers me, maybe.
I know, I know, we're off topic Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Nothin' wrong with going off topic! I think it is an interesting idea that deserves discussion. There isn't much to discuss on the original topic, just adults acting dispicably.
If I were close enough to catch the child, I probably would. But I imagined being several feet from the child. I wouldn't go diving to save them from a little bump that I warned them about getting in the first place. But my kids are young and small, and don't have far to fall when they do fall.
I imagine an adult-sized kid slipping on a wet floor has a lot more opportunity for injury.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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