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Author Topic: Potential Problem With a Tenant Who is Moving Out
Noemon
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As some of you may know, I bought a triplex last year in Dayton, Ohio. I'm living in one of the units and renting out the other two.

One of my tenants told me at the beginning of this month that she was moving out, as she had decided to rent a house beginning August 1st. She is on a month to month lease (that's what she was on when I bought the place, and it seemed to me after talking to her that trying to get her to sign a year lease would spook her into action--she'd lived in the place for 3 years at that point, but had been intending to only live there for 6 months--and drive her to move out), so there weren't any problems with breaking the lease or anything.

Yesterday I was showing a prospective tenant the unit that she's going to be vacating, and was surprised to see just how little packing she'd actually done. She had enough boxes there that I believe that she's really planning to move, and doesn't intend to become a squatter or something, but unless she has a whole host of people descend on the apartment this weekend to get her stuff into boxes and (hopefully) clean the place, I can't see how she'll be able to get everything out in time.

I expect that she'll take furniture and stuff with her, but I could see her just ditching all the useless crap she has stuffed into the closets, in the attic, and places like that.

If she does that, what are my legal responsibilities toward her? I've got a little pamplet about landlord/tenant legal stuff, but it doesn't cover this kind of situation. I'm looking online, but I thought I'd see if Dag or UofUlawguy or somebody had any insights into it.

Is there a specified time period during which I'm legally obligated to hold onto her stuff? Are there a specified number of times I have to warn her before I throw it away? At what point does it legally become my stuff?

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katharina
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I just signed a lease, and it said that after a month I forfeited all rights to any stuff left in the apartment after I moved out, even if I had not finished up the lease at that point.
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Farmgirl
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Since she was already there when you bought it, I supposed not refunding any deposit isn't really going to help you that much.

I'm sure you have rights to put her stuff in storage for XX number of days and if she doesn't claim it, you can dispose of it however you wish. However, since these laws differ from state to state, you would have to check your local laws.

Then again, don't sell her short. I just helped a friend move, and his place was much like you are describing hers when everyone arrived to help move. We had to pack all the boxes and load all the trucks, etc and got it all out in one day. But nothing much was done prior to that day.

Some people are just like that.

Farmgirl

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rivka
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From here:
quote:
Don't leave stuff behind. Many tenants make the mistake of leaving unwanted items such as trash, old furniture or clothing. If there's a charge to store the items or dispose of them, it can be deducted from your security deposit. If the charges exceed the deposit, the landlord can sue.
When Can Your Landlord Take Your Stuff? It says immediately after. That's Canadian law, but I'm pretty sure it's true here also . . .

Good luck!

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KarlEd
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You should check your local laws to be sure, but it is my understanding that unless she makes other arragements with you, anything left behind after the termination date of her lease is abandoned.

If I were in your shoes, I'd evaluate left items individually. It will probably be obvious if what is left behind is simply junk. If this is the case, and there is a significant amount of junk, you might be able to withhold a portion of her security deposit to cover the cost of having the junk cleaned out.

Again, you should check your local landlord/tenant laws to be sure. Details can change not only from state to state, but from city to city or city to county as well.

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Farmgirl
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Another thought -- are you a member of any local Landlord/Realtor type association? Usually if you are part of a group made up of other landlords, you can get all your questions answered by others who have prior experience with this sort of thing.

FG

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TheTick
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I'll just chime in to agree that most places have a set time that you have to hold on to it (charging for off site storage) before either destroying it or selling it, based on what local law says and the value. We had to do that when my former friend moved out of our duplex.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Since she was already there when you bought it, I supposed not refunding any deposit isn't really going to help you that much.

Hopefully you've already addressed this, but if she gave a security deposit to the former owner, that should have been transferred to you when you bought the place, so it shouldn't be a moot point. (unless she didn't give one to the former owner in the first place.)

Also, she may have recourse to collect a security deposit from you regarless of whether you collected one from the previous owner or not, if she gave him one. If that is an issue, you may need to check with a lawyer to find out what your responsiblilities/rights are in accordance with your local laws.

Good luck.

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fugu13
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At most your responsibility is likely going to be to toss it into storage for some amount of time (no need to be particularly neat about it) and make certain basic attempts to contact; exact rules will depend upon state law.

This link will hopefully lead you to the law in question: link

Its not clear exactly what in there relates to this situation, though. Since you're a landlord in Ohio, though, I'd read all of it.

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fugu13
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rivka: landlord/tenant laws are highly varied across the US; in some states a landlord can throw a tenant out for even very small violations, where in others the tenant has considerable rights. I suspect provisions with regard to tenants' property and the proper dispersal thereof are likewise varied.
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fugu13
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Oh, and if that link doesn't work, its chapter 5321 of Ohio law, which can be found in the Real Property section.
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rivka
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Some more, possibly relevant, links:

One
Two
Three

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
rivka: landlord/tenant laws are highly varied across the US; in some states a landlord can throw a tenant out for even very small violations, where in others the tenant has considerable rights. I suspect provisions with regard to tenants' property and the proper dispersal thereof are likewise varied.

I know, and I live in a state where the law protects the tenant far more than it does the landlord.

And I'm pretty sure the landlord still can toss anything that's left, and charge the tenant for the disposal. I think the exception is a vehicle. Then you have to put a lien on it, and it only becomes the owners as storage charges add up.

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fugu13
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I just don't think there's any way to conclude that what's true for canada is very useful at all in a practical situation in a given state in the US, or even what's true in another state. The one link you've given from Ohio appears to be a different situation covered explicitly by the law, failure to move out on date notice was given for.

edit: that is, its not good enough for him to make a best guess at what's legal and then act on it, he has to find out what actually is legal and then act with that knowledge.

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rivka
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*remembers why she detests tenant law* [Wink]
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OlavMah
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Well... not to be a total pedant here, but read the lease. Make sure the lease doesn't modify whatever the law says. Also, if the lease doesn't set out what the charges are for the landlord having to clean and fix up the place, reasonable wear and tear excepted, draft a new lease. A lot of problems like this can be avoided by having the new tenant know all about what the expectations will be when they sign the lease in the first place.
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Noemon
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She did pay a security deposit when she moved in, and it was transferred to me when I bought that place, so there's no trouble there. It was a fairly minimal deposit though, less than a month's rent, so it won't go very far if I have to use it to pay for the cost of clearing out and storing her stuff (and for taking care of any other problems she ends up leaving me).
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Noemon
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OlavMah, I'm definitely going to be using a different lease with my next tenant. The one the current tenant is on isn't something that I'm terribly impressed with. I'll dig it out and read up on what, if anything, it has to say about all of this. I should have gotten the tenant on a new, better lease, even if it was still just a month to month thing, I know.
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Dagonee
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I got nothing. It's so lease- and state-dependent.

Document everything. Don't sell anything until you get an OK from a lawyer, her (written), or something very official from the state.

But it might not be a bad idea to try to schedule the walkthrough for the day she moves out - take off from work if you can. Or make up a "so you're moving out flier" with tips on how to get the full security deposit back. Then give it to her.

Edit: The key will be to give her a reminder that she has to move everything out without her interpreting it as an accusation that she wasn't going to do so. Also, if you have to do it yourself, I would do some research into whether it's better to hire someone to do so. Having an invoice may make it easier to collect. This is from my former business owner brain, not my law student brain.

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OlavMah
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Doesn't matter if she does interpret it as you thinking she won't move everything out. Even if she get's offended, her options are limited. You're her landlord. I'd say that you only want a lawyer letter if you're real unclear on the law, because otherwise the lawyer is going to cost more than this stuff is worth (or, at least, you'd want a lawyer who costs more than this stuff is worth). Now, when getting a new lease, I would recommend getting a lawyer.

I've reviewed a few of these form leases that people buy online. The leases aren't terrible, but they're far from perfect. Everyone who's hired me to tweak them seems to have left thinking I was well worth the money. A lawyer can also give you a realistic idea of what your rights are in any given situation, because what the law provides for isn't always practical. For example, the law may provide you recourse if your tenant breaks a lease, but often it is difficult to enforce that against a tenant who flies by night. In your jurisdiction, it may make sense to plan as if your tenants are on month to month leases, even if they're not.

Other mean, cynical, and yet true points are that you want a good lawyer to: 1) write nasty letters to tenants who are stepping out of line, or to Legal Aid Fair Housing, if your tenants go to them, and 2) to take that lawyer off the market for your tenants. Said lawyer cannot sue you for disputes, because you're the lawyer's client already. One large landlord in my town has hired all the property lawyers specifically to prevent their tenants from hiring them.

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Kiwi
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quote:
Originally posted by OlavMah:
One large landlord in my town has hired all the property lawyers specifically to prevent their tenants from hiring them.

That is disgusting, and I wouldn't have thought it was possible or realistic.

Are you saying that this person has actually hired every individual lawyer? Keeping a whole town's worth of lawyers on retainer must be costing a fair amount. Either this person is expecting a lot of action against them, or they are being ridiculously cautious and greedy - and have a lot of money to burn.

[ July 29, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Kiwi ]

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CT
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Noemon, any way you could just "run into" the tenant tomorrow and say, "Hey, wow, gee, are you sure you're going to be able to get moved out by the scheduled date? Because, like, I noticed when I was showing the apartment that there's a lot of packing left. Oh man, moving sucks, huh? Uh-huh ... uh-huh ... Gee whiz, I'm so glad I don't have to move again. So, um, whadda ya think? Uh-huh ... uh-huh ... well, just so's you know, if any stuff gets left behind, by [the lease, the law, whatever] I'm going to have to [whatever]. Uh-huh ... uh-huh ... well, good luck with it. Let me know if there is anything I can do."

Or would that be too weird? I think a guileless, gee-whiz open-eyed honest questioning might go down smooth with some people. Of course, I don't know your tenant. [Dont Know]

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Chris Kidd
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Just be glad your not dealing with family [Wall Bash]
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OlavMah
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It's a small town.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Doesn't matter if she does interpret it as you thinking she won't move everything out. Even if she get's offended, her options are limited.
I was just thinking of keeping it friendly. Old trick from collecting our accounts receivable.
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Chris Kidd
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OlavMah
I ment that Neomon isn't dealing with his family.

My aunt had to kick out one of her Neices for not paying rent for a year. it took my aunt that long to get over the idea that this might start a figiht with in the family. im still a little bitter about what my cousin did to my aunt.

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