quote:My cultural experience in this regard has been extraordinarily different from the Mormon one, I think, because if I wanted to get married at 22, or even 23 or 24, I would be *extremely* worried about my family's perception of me.
Kasie, me too. My family was extremely worried when Wes and I married - I was 20. The idea of getting married before you finished college was very upsetting to them.
No one has any doubts now, not when we will be celebrating our 14th anniversary in a few months, but I certainly had to put up with people urging me to wait when I announced my engagement.
I was certain, though. He was certain. And we believed God had brought us together at that time in our lives, and that the only way to really be together the way we wanted to be was to marry. I didn't see the appeal to merely dating the man I knew I would spend the rest of my life with for three years until I graduated from college, I wanted to wake up next to him every morning.
My parents were convinced I'd never finish college. As it turns out, I didn't then, we moved, married, and then I got pregnant much earlier than we planned so I didn't go back to school then. But I'm in school now. And I can say I'm glad I waited and went back when I was older and really could focus on my education and appreciate my opportunities.
The thing is, regardless of what your culture thinks or even your family, you have to make the decisions that are right for you.
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quote:This kind of extended adolescence was part of what drove Taylor’s friend Rachel Morrissey to a family ward long before the Black Sunday in March. Morrissey, also 33, began attending a family ward three years earlier, after a bad breakup with a man in the Langley ward. That, and the seemingly never-ending pity she received for not being married, distracted her from her primary reason for attending church: learning about the gospel. “I hated that part of it,” she says. “You’d get hugs from the bishop who’d say, ‘These men don’t know what they’re missing.’ They don’t know how else to feel. You’re a leftover, and they don’t know why. So you end up with a different kind of pressure, from both sides, to be flawless. You have to be thin and pretty and smart, and you’re not allowed to be sad that you’re not with someone, because that makes you feel like you messed up, but you’re not allowed to be happy about not being with someone, either, because that’s wrong. It’s a hard church to be single in.”
emphasis added
I wish they had interviewed HER. She seems to have a more realistic view of how things are and she also seems to have different priorities. She's not bitter about married couples, but stressed out that the pressure she feels is ruining her experience at church. That's something to really worry about.
quote:Taylor usually avoids singles activities.
Hm. Ok.
quote:“I was one of, if not the most, physically attractive women there,” she says with uncharacteristic vanity. “I was really indignant. I think I’m a pretty good catch.”
So she never shows up to activities, and expects to be snatched up at the first one she attends? I don't know if it's Mormon guys, but a lot of guys need to see you a few times, yea even speak to you and become acquainted through a mutual friend or calling in the church before they'll ask you out. That could be seen as a flaw, but it's the way it is. Ward activities seldom have the 'get her number and hook up' atmosphere that you might find in say, a bar.
And her vanity doesn't seem to be that uncharacteristic. But that's just me.
(I'm not over 30 yet either, but I'm close enough to feel most of the zing.)
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posted
Belle's comments on marrying within one's religion constitute very good advice, in my opinion.
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posted
Agreed. (with Jacare and Belle) You guys post too fast, I was writing the above post before OSC and OlavMah posted. Great points all around.
I often feel that I'm intimidating to guys in my ward...maybe too intimidating to approach. I'm 6' tall, a returned missionary with a Master's degree and a job. I'm also devout, temple worthy, and I have a 'public' calling. (I'm the ward choir director.) Everyone in my ward knows who I am, but I get the feeling that sometimes guys don't want to get to know me. I also have a tendency to turn everything around so it's my fault . I don't resort to the "Guys are just dorks because they don't ask me out" excuse unless I'm really depressed and/or PMSing.
My other problem though is that during these 3 years of finishing my degrees, I haven't made any efforts to 'put myself out there' so to speak. Most of the time I'm too exhausted to go to the activities and some of the time I'm too intimidated by how many people I don't know to get up the gumption and go. If you met me in the ward, you'd never know that I am terribly insecure about forming relationships there. I don't expect to be married right now because of these factors, but I've also felt like this is ok with God. I fully trust His timing on this issue and I've made goals to do my part a little better as well.
The important thing for me right now though is to just go to church and be there. I'm lucky, I have a pretty good single's ward. It is rather too 'beautiful' in my opinion (not as many average-looking people as you'd expect) but the people are sweet and we've got great leadership. Like that girl I quoted above, I'd be really worried if I started being so preoccupied about being single that I stopped getting anything out of going to church.
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quote: I've seen Christians marry Jews and get divorced less than two years later.
That said, I've seen Christians marry Christians and get divorced less than two years later. The trick is to care deeply about the same things your partner cares deeply about -- be it God or your dogs or stamp collecting.
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posted
Of course, and the fact that they were different religions was certainly not the only factor is the divorce.
But I would submit that religion is of more importance than whether or not you're both dog people or enjoy the same hobbies.
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posted
I think the marrying within your religion thing is true if religion is very important to you. If your church is one where it's important that couples/families do things together, and you would feel that you were missing something if your spouse didn't attend church with you, for instance, then yes, you should marry someone of your same religion. Also, if you plan on having children, and it's important to you to bring them up in your faith, then that is undoubtedly easier if you marry someone of the same faith.
For me, my belief in God is a fact of my life, but my social activities are not centered around my church. I do not intend to have children. If I marry, it is important to me that my hypothetical spouse have similar moral values to me, but it is not necessary that he be of my faith.
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posted
I think, really, that couples simply need to rank the importance of religion in their lives in a similar manner. For me, it's never played much of a role at all, and for the most part, I'm looking to marry someone in a similar situation -- be they Christian, Jew, or other faith. I would have trouble marrying both a devout Christian or a devout Jew, simply because it's not of extreme importance to me.
That said, I do agree with Belle -- I think it would be much harder, if I were a devout Christian, to marry a devout someone of another faith -- or someone of little faith.
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posted
I'd like to discuss the interfaith marriage topic, but I think it's a little too close to my current situation (interfaith marriage, rabbi AND minister, in less than a week).
Maybe in a year or two, I'll have a better perspective, one way or another. Though I agree that it certainly is tougher... Especially on issues around (hypothetical) children.
posted
I really don't believe that anyone's not a misfit. It can be even harder if you're not an obvious misfit. Learning how you don't fit is part of getting to know yourself.
The girl's quote about her physical attractiveness is actually sort of funny and more than a little sad. It doesn't matter, in the long run. It really doesn't. The people you like to date may be good looking (for some of you) but the person you marry, honestly, is someone you'd enjoy staring at even if they were horribly disfigured in a car accident on the way home from the wedding.
BTW, I don't think the guys in my old branch were dorks for not asking me out. But if any of them would have been otherwise interested and let my career get in the way, then yeah, they were dorks. But I don't know of anyone for whom that was specifically the case. The guy who would "never date a lawyer" was not, I think, otherwise madly in love with me Posts: 700 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: The point is this: Nobody fits into the pattern EXACTLY. But that does not mean there's something wrong with the pattern. OR with you! It just means that we aspire to good things, and achieve all those we can, and we should celebrate for those who achieve what we have not been able to, as we would hope they would celebrate with us for the good things we have achieved.
quote: And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?
quote: However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.
Sometimes reading OSC is like eating a delicious pie that has a tack hidden in it somewhere.
Is 'not wacko' really the best phrase that could be used? Don't you think, say, 'freakishly abnormal' or 'one step up from a circus geek' might be a better way to put it?
Am I getting worked up over what was, hopefully, something meant as a tongue in cheek statement?
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posted
Storm: In the Mormon world, most single people over the age of 30 are a little wacko. At least, that's my experience. Most Mormons are married by that age, so the majority of singles over 30 are at least a little weird. I'm pretty sure OSC wasn't trying to slam everyone over the age of 27 who's not married.
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posted
What? I was trying to point out that Jonathon's statement was potentially hurtful, especially to you. If anyone, I was trying to make fun of him. I do not think you are a wacko.
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posted
And if all "old" singles are wackos, we need to worry about why Sheri Dew was called to the Relief Society general presidency.
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It was hurtful. It's like finding out that everyone is being nice to you in person and secretly doing that twirling motion as soon as you leave the room. There are enough idiots in the real world. There shouldn't be here.
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posted
Katie: I didn't mean it that way, and I hope you realize that. I've been in singles wards. I've had single friends in their late twenties. I haven't been in that position myself, but I've seen plenty of people who were. Tell me that the pickings aren't pretty slim once you get close to thirty. Tell me that most of the single LDS guys your age aren't guys that you'd mind dating.
My post may have been unintentionally hurtful, but yours was intentionally hurtful.
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quote:I've had single friends in their late twenties.
In Provo. All bets are off for the guys who hit 30 and are still hanging around college towns. Of course they are weird - the sane ones moved to D.C. or L.A. or Dallas so they aren't stuck in wards with 18 year olds.
posted
I do know what I'm talking about, but obviously I'm talking about something different than you are. I'm guessing that BYU wards are just different from the wards you've been in.
But don't accuse me of incredible ignorance and then try to paint me as something I'm not.
You can also stop making assumptions about my friends. They weren't guys who were hanging around a college town at age thirty. They were guys who were still going to school in their late twenties.
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posted
Ditto in the non-Mormon world. While, yes, there are any number of unmarried people in their late twenties/thirties who have their issues, my experience has been that sometimes, dare I say often, the people who don't get married for long periods of time are just picky, have other things involving their time such that they can't in good conscience commit to a marriage or just haven't met the right person. I don't know that 'being wacko' makes it harder to get married when, if you want to get married, you can. It's not hard if you're not picky.
I'm sorry my comment is causing fighting. I hope things work themselves out soonest.
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posted
Can this stop before friends start saying really nasty things about each other for an innocent misunderstanding?
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posted
Katie: You're right; I shouldn't have. I'm sorry that I unintentionally hurt you. But don't imagine that I'm one of the people who has to be tolerated at church, unless you're like the girl in the article and simply can't stand married couples, and I don't believe you're like that. And please don't jump all over me like I was personally attacking you. I hope you know that I'm not like that.
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posted
Jon Boy, no one thinks they are the people who are hard to take at church. Come on - saying that most people over 30 who aren't married are a little weird IS the kind of crap that's difficult to endure. I don't envy couples, but I resent insults.
posted
I shouldn't have even said it in the first place, because now that I've thought about it more, I think I know a lot more LDS single people in their late twenties and thirties who aren't weird than who are. But at BYU, you do see more weirdos than normal, and you definitely hear about lots of single weirdos over thirty. So my comment was ill-thought-out, to say the least. And I never meant to imply that you were one of the alleged weirdos.
The ironic thing is that Ruth and I have a group of single friends at BYU, and they've all told us that we're the coolest married couple they know because we don't make them feel weird for being single. I guess this is one instance where I failed in that regard.
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posted
Jon Boy, what's the average age of your group of single friends? I'm willing to bet that it's still younger than 'in their 30s.' Katie wasn't the only one that winced at your post. My first thought was what Katie wrote in her post immediately responding...maybe not so passionately stated, but I had some of the same feelings.
I know you didn't mean it that way. I know you're a nice person that wouldn't hurt someone on purpose but comments like that can be hurtful especially coming from someone on the opposite side of the experience spectrum.
quote:And I never meant to imply that you were one of the alleged weirdos.
I don't think anyone realizes how big of a pile of crap the word 'alleged' really is. It's not alleged. So many people really believe that those singles wards full of age 30+ are full of weirdos, and that those who couldn't 'manage' to get married before they were relegated to one of those wards have something wrong with them. To many for it to be 'alleged.' That's another reason why it's touchy I guess.
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posted
Great, right after Katie's make up post, mine looks incredibly snarky. Please don't take it that way, I'm just talking out some thoughts, not directed at you personally. (Jon Boy)
posted
The average age? I'm not sure, but I think they're all my age or older. But the other friends I was referencing earlier were mostly my roommates: one got married at 27, one just got married at 32, I think, and one is probably 28 now and still single. Then there were other single guys I knew who were pushing 30.
Don't worry—I didn't take your post personally, and I hope you didn't take mine personally.
Katie: Yes, we're still friends. I'm not the kind to hold grudges, especially when it was started by a misunderstanding. Especially when that misunderstanding consisted of me putting my foot in my mouth.
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posted
Perhaps I should weigh in with a Patented KoM Attack On Religion (tm) just so everyone can flame me and be friends again? But no, seriously. In an era where the average age at marriage is around 28 (talking about Europe here, I understand Americans start a bit earlier) referring to unmarried people over thirty, a good 25% of the population, as 'wacko' is just not called for. Within the Mormon community is something else again, but then - no, I was going to restrain my snarkiness.
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posted
KoM and Stormy, your comments make complete sense. I hope OSC realizes (and I think he does, giving him the benefit of the doubt as I am wont to do) that his comment *only* applies to cultures where people generally marry in their early twenties.
Obviously this doesn't result in *all* the singles above 30 being wackos, but since the wackos are less likely to be married, it isn't unreasonable to assume there will be a higher percentage of them IN THAT CULTURE.
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posted
I have to say I don't share that girl's experience at all. I'm single at 47, converted to LDS at age 42, and haven't felt that spirit or that pressure at all in any of my wards. I do avoid single's conferences, though, because it seems like they're too focused in that direction. I would love to be married to the right person, of course, and intend to marry someday, but I'm never made to feel I'm less important or less capable because I'm not married yet.
It might be that the girl in the article perhaps has a low sense of self worth, and so tends to see everything as though it were about her, and critical of her. She seemed to take everything as a slight to herself. Why should she feel that way? I think most people are doing their best to be kind to everyone.
The church historically, also, has always been about women being educated, accomplished, strong, and equal. Women had the vote in Utah, of course, long before women in the U.S. could vote. Brigham Young said "We have sisters here who, if they had the privilege of studying, would make just as good mathematicians or accountants as any man; and we think they ought to have the privilege to study these branches of knowledge that they may develop the powers with which they are endowed. We believe that women are useful not only to sweep houses, wash dishes, make beds, and raise babies, but that they should stand behind the counter, study law or physic (medicine), or become good book-keepers and be able to do the business in any counting house, and thus to enlarge their sphere of usefulness for the benefit of society at large." (DBY, 216-17) Pretty radical for 1859!
Though the church teaches that women's most important calling is wife and mother, it's equally true that men's most important calling is husband and father. I was surprised to see so many stay at home moms in the church when I first joined, and yet they all seem to have master's degrees or higher. They are more educated than I. It's not at all that women are sidelined. As for feeding the elders, I just always meet them at a restaurant. There's no problem at all about that. The rules are deliberately set way on the side of caution, so that there can't be even an appearance or suspicion of anything being wrong ever. I feel really safe and protected because of the rules being that way. It gives me a feeling of security and happiness. And I think the elders enjoy eating out from time to time, too.
I love the kids at sacrament meeting. One of the things I love most about the church is all the kids. They are so lively and clever and bright. Quite often it brings tears to my eyes how tenderly and sweetly the children play together and the older children look after the younger. There really is a wonderful spirit in most LDS families that I've seen. Maybe that's because we have so many lessons and talks on how parents should love and guide children, how children should respect and obey and love parents, how we can resolve conflict in the home, and how important is love at home, and family home evenings. Also we know that we are all greatly beloved children of a living God, that we have a divine nature, and that we are all of us struggling to learn and grow and allow that divine nature to express itself. So that helps us to be more patient and gentle with each other and forgive each other, perhaps.
It sounds like that girl sees church as mainly a social group, and doesn't feel like she's one of the "popular" ones. Maybe if she focused on church more as a forum for doing God's work, studying, learning, and perfecting herself, helping others to grow stronger and feel the spirit, proclaiming the gospel to interested people, and building the Crystal City, she would be a lot happier there. It seems like anytime she sees evidence that people around her are happy, she lets it add to her bitterness. That's just sad.
I guess I feel an understanding for anyone who feels they don't socially fit in at their ward, however, the social part is not of prime importance. It's through the gospel that we're all made one.
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posted
Edit: directed at beverly, illustrating cultural differences::
Right. When you consider that I married at 23 and in the months leading up to the wedding was told by many concerned family members and friends that I was 'too young' for and 'rushing into' marriage (after a two-year engagement?).
Though I agree that it is probably best to marry in relative youth for many reasons, not everyone fits that particular cookie-cutter, also for a number of reasons.
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posted
Being a single LDS male soon to be 36 in a month, and having grown up in the church in Utah of all places, I feel like I should say something in this thread.
And, quite frankly, I really don’t have anything to say other than this:
I now live on the eastern shore of Maryland and the last singles outing I went on consisted of myself and three other women all between the ages of 55 and 80.
posted
Kat, we may be talking about different "wackos". By wackos I mean the people that no one wants to date *at all*. And they do seem to have a hard time getting married.
In the movies, the wackos find each other and are happy. But in real life, most wackos want someone "above" them on the ladder and therefore are always going after people out-of-their-league. They have unrealistic expectations, and as a result, they don't find anyone.
That's what I've observed, anyway.
Edit: So I guess by wackos, I mean specifically "wackos with unrealistic expectations".
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quote:But in real life, most wackos want someone "above" them on the ladder and therefore are always going after people out-of-their-league.
I don't like this statement. It doesn't fit with what I've seen at all.
I do think it goes back to what I said, though - if you really, really want to get married, there's a way. I think people who pursue the unobtainable are conflicted about wanting it in the first place.
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posted
But that is the problem. Like the girl in this article, they *don't* want to get married at any cost. They want their dreamboat, and he/she ain't coming because they are no dreamboat themselves.
Unless they are willing to change their expectations, they will not be hooking up anytime soon.
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posted
Right. So if they really wanted it, they'd change their expectations. So the reason they aren't married is because they don't really want it.
Which makes me wonder if the working defintion of "wacko" here is "doesn't want to get married at any cost".
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quote: Which makes me wonder if the working defintion of "wacko" here is "doesn't want to get married at any cost".
Not quite. More like, "not willing to pay the cost in order to be married".
People are good with self-deception. I'm sure the people who actually are this way would hate to be told that it's their fault, they don't really want to be married.
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