posted
Harry is in no way a Horcrux, and it's getting sooooo tiresome explaining that! He was "marked as an equal" but that's the extent of it. Booooooo horcrux theories! Dumbledore is dead. Snape still has a chance.
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I don't know if you guys have seen http://dumbledoreisnotdead.com, but there are more and more people thinking, for mainly the reasons the guys gives, that Dumbledore isn't dead - or will be coming back. Here's my biggest argument against all that nonsense: Harry is the literary Christ figure in the book, not Dumbledore. If JKR is miraculously bring a person back from the dead, it's going to be Harry, not Dumbledore.
So while we're on the subject of Dumbledore, here's a funny... well, I don't know if I'd call it a theory; a funny idea. Since we don't know what Dumbledore was silently casting on Harry, how do we know that Dumbledore wasn't making Harry into a Horcrux for himself? 1)We don't know how recent the murders have to be to use the soul shards in the Horcruxes. 2)We know Dumbledore defeated Grindewald, and we don't know if Dumbledore had to kill Grindewald or not. 3)We know it's possible to do magic without a wand. 4)We know next to nothing about Horcruxes.
For the record, I really don't think DD is coming back at all, but I like how outrageous people's theories get.
And Harry-as-a-Horcrux is not outrageous Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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EDIT: Also, I very much doubt if we'll ever figure out everything. JKR will undoubtedly surprise us, especially because this book really is more of a set-up to the seventh book than a novel in itself. It raises questions and scenarios, but rarely finishes any of them.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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But it's not a two way street. It's a one way street that is constantly driven in the wrong direction by anxious student drivers!
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dumbledoreisnotdead.com has some great theories on it.
For instance...
QUOTE: "Every other time we've seen the Avada Kedavra performed, the victim simply falls over dead:
He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor. (GoF pg 15/19)
From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF pg 638/553)
However, in Half-Blood Prince, when Snape curses Dumbledore with the same spell, Dumbledore violently flies up and away from the tower:
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP pg 596/556)
Why would this application of the Avada Kedavra be so different from every other time we've seen it?
Perhaps his spell was different because even though those were the words Snape said, he didn't perform the killing curse at all. Remember all the importance this book gave to "nonverbal" spells? Perhaps Snape said Avada Kedavra, but the curse he was really thinking, the nonverbal one, was a different curse, one that only made it appear that Dumbledore was dead."
and...
QUOTE: "Does it state anywhere in a Harry Potter book that you have to be dead to be on the wall in the headmaster's office? I can't prove this, but I think it's just more likely the only requirement is you have to be a former headmaster, and it just so happens all of the former headmasters previous to Dumbledore are currently dead."
A: Dumbledore in OoP asked Snape if he was prepared for what he would have to do and Snape paled.
B: when Snape entered the battlement area where Dumbledore and Harry were thee was a delay in which DD said "Severus" a couple of times pleadingly possibly he was begging Snape to actually kill him.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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In all honesty, we've only "seen" a few instances of AK. Let's look at them. In the ones that worked, there were a few different reactions to it. Cedric -- slumped dead. Old man -- slumped dead. Both of these acts of AK were commited in a completely calm manner. Voldy just calmly disposed of them, for example, he said something like "Kill the spare...", when he had Ceddy offed. The old man was the same situation. Also, with the spider and Moody. Nothing important.
Now we have the other confirmed uses of AK. First, we have the Potters' deaths. This is really an unknown, so I'm only using it because of the result (which may not really be legit, but I'll go for it anyways...), but it was most likely an incredibly emotional and significant murder on Voldemort's part. Next, we have Snape's murder of Dumbledore, again, highly emotional. It also resulted in a rather destructive death.
The only other times we've even seen AK performed, it was with high emotions -- and look at the results! LV sets a desk on fire, objects hit with the curse are destroyed, and all kinds of mayhem occur. I can understand the argument that the curse has different results against objects, but I'm just throwing this out there. In all the laid back murders, the person just dies. In all the rage-induced or highly emotional murders, objects are destroyed, people go flying...it seems that the emotion behind the murder depicts what will happen to the person and surroundings behind the murder.
DD is dead, Harry isn't a Horcrux, Snape could be good... Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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And if I'm not mistaken, other spells damage objects, too. I think stupefy has singed eyebrows, other unknown spells have punched holes in things, etc.
However, I do totally agree with you. Snape is clearly highly emotional - either from killing the man who has protected and stood up for him, or killing the man he hates oh so much.
Or it could be dramatic license.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Yeah...I hope it isn't dramatic license though. That would be...well lame. It makes sense though, in the *big* deaths, the results been extreme. So who knows...I think the desk is set on fire when LV sends an AK curse at either Harry or DD, and they duck it or it misses and the wand-weighing security desk bursts into flames...book 5 in final fight
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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As to Dumbledore being on the wall--I don't think the "former headmaster" theory works, because Dumbledore has been not the headmaster several times before. In the second book the board of governors asked him to step down; and in the fifth book, he did a bunk and Umbridge was headmistress for a while. So during those periods, he was the former headmaster.
Of course, Harry didn't go into the office during either of these periods...it had locked itself against Umbridge...so it could still be.
posted
I'm not sure anyone has spelled out the real significance of Snape's unbreakable vow, where he swore to Draco Malfoy's mother that he would protect Malfoy. As elaborated in the story in a conversation between Dumbledore and Harry, an unbreakable vow compells you to keep it, on pain of death.
Now consider the circumstances there on the astronomy tower. Dumbledore immobilizes Harry, who is also wearing his invisibility cloak. Dumbledore is held at wand's point by Draco long enough for them to converse a bit, and Draco cannot bring himself to kill the weakened Dumbledore, even though he said Voldemort has threatened to kill him and his entire family if he does not. Draco is actually lowering his wand, despite the appearance of the other Death-Eaters. Professor Snape enters the scene, sizes up what is happening, and knows that there is only one way he can save Draco from being killed by Voldemort. He shoulder's Draco aside, and kills Dumbledore. This was the only thing Snape could do, compelled by his unbreakable vow to protect Draco.
What I cannot decide is whether Dumbledore failed to remember that Snape had made that unbreakable vow and was begging for his own life; or whether he did remember, and knew that Snape must kill him to save Draco, and so was actually begging Snape to go through with it despite his possible reluctance when he said "Severus---please!" If Snape had not gone through with it, the three Death-Eaters would have overpowered Snape even if the unbreakable vow did not kill him outright, and Draco would have been killed either by the Death-Eaters right there and then, or by Voldemort himself later.
So the possibility remains open that Snape might still be a double-agent (or quadruple agent, however you want to look at it) biding his time for the opportunity to help destroy Voldemort. But virtually everyone now is convinced he is on Voldemort's side.
Draco survives, and we now know that his previous clumsy attacks against Dumbledore were coerced, and at the bottom line he is not utterly loyal to Voldemort. So maybe Snape and Draco can team up in a covert manner, somewhat like the way Harry and Albius Dumbledore had been a sort of team for so long.
But I still wonder why it was that Snape entered so willingly into the unbreakable vow to Draco's mother.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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As to why the Avara Kedavara curse manifested differently when Snape used it that when used by others, it may depend a lot on who is using it. In book five, Harry tried the Avara Kedavara curse on Voldemort (or was it one of the Death-Eaters), but it had no lasting effects. The person Harry had attacked quickly recovered, and said sneeringly, "With all Dark Magic spells, you have to really mean it."
As for making a Horcrux--only Snape would have been able to do that, since he was the one who killed Dumbledore. But earlier Slughorn, in the penseive session, said to Tom Riddle that a special spell had to be performed along with killing someone.
Just to be really zany, off the wall completely--what if in actual effect, Dumbledore were deliberately committing suicide? And what if he was able to use that special spell as he died? Maybe Dumbledore has a horcrux somewhere. Maybe it is that locket that Harry was carrying.
Can't wait for the seventh novel in the series. If it is truly to be the end of the series, then Rowling has a lot of plot threads to tie up.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Lestranges went after the Longbottoms in order to track down Voldemort and bring him back to life, after Lily and James were killed. They would have checked the house for his remains, horcruxi, possessions, etc. if they could get near it.
Barty Crouch Jr. was part of that group, and ultimately returned to Voldemort before he regained his body. He's the likely candidate for returning Voldemort's wand.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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"But I still wonder why it was that Snape entered so willingly into the unbreakable vow to Draco's mother. "
Because Dumbledore told him to. He tells this to Draco as he talks to him on the tower top. The unbreakable vow was simply to protect Draco, regardless of what he must do in order to comply. Dumbledore must see the possibility of Draco's goodness. I think Dumbledore's basic philosophy is that doing something good increases goodness, no matter how it may appear evil. Offering to protect another human being is by it's nature good, so regardless of the consequences, Dumbledore would have wanted it that way.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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"Harry tried the Avara Kedavara curse on Voldemort (or was it one of the Death-Eaters), but it had no lasting effects. The person Harry had attacked quickly recovered, and said sneeringly, "With all Dark Magic spells, you have to really mean it.""
Harry tried to use the cruciatus curse, not Avadra Kedavra.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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What does the base word of crucify mean? Because the descriptions of the spell in the book don't sound anything like the effects of an actual crucifiction - does it have broader implications?
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Crucify is from crux, which means "cross." The word excruciate, which means "to inflict severe pain through torture," comes from the practice of crucifixion.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I really need to stop reading this thread. I've argued all of this in the other thread, and this is just annoying me. Now, if anyone spots me in here again, just yell at me and kick me out! And then go read the other thread so that we don't have everyone arguing the same topics over and over and over (plus there are some really interesting theories there).
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Well... so far his Cruciatus curses haven't worked because his anger, fundamentally, is righteous. So... what happens if, in the next book, he fires one at Snape in a blind rage, only in a crucial moment?
I mean, I'm all for Harry not being a murderer and Snape and Malfoy turning turncoat, but I'd like to see Snape writhe in pain for a while before convincing Harry.
Of course, that probably won't happen. He'll probably save the day and die doing it, like your usual tortured repentant. And I guess I'm okay with that.
But my point is, Harry has probably progressed to the mental status where he's capable of using an Unforgiveable Curse to great effect.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Thanks, Glenn Arnold, I stand corrected. But Harry was told that with all the dark curses, "you have to mean it," so that would be true for the avara kadavera curse.
If the crucius curse is meant to inflict ultimate pain, what would happen if you said, "cruciatus maximus?" I mean, if "Lumos maximus" makes Harry's wand shine brighter....
The Avara Kedavara curse sounds like you are wishing the victim to become a cadaver. But it does also sound vaguely like the more familiar "Abracadabra," which was a magical incantation of apparently Gnostic derrivation.
[ August 09, 2005, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hogwarts is chock full of ghosts. If I recall correctly, the History Teacher is a ghost. If ghosts can hang around, and even have positions on the faculty, I don't see why Dumbledore can't remain a ghostly headmaster.
Although, I can see him mourning his inability to eat sweets.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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You have to have a reason not to go on to the afterlife. The way Nearly Headless Nick explained it, it sounded like ghosts were either people who were really afraid of death or (from Moaning Myrtle's experience) people who were determined to haunt someone for the rest of their days. I don't think Dumbledore would be afraid, and he would probably find haunting Voldy to be beneath him (though it would be very convenient).
:sneaks back out of thread before her presence is noticed:
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
As I recall, the history teacher kind of died quietly and didn't notice, so kept on with his lectures. Dumbledore might want to retain his headmaster's postition.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Something tells me we always have to think there's unmentioned restrictions when it comes to the picture thing.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Have you ever noticed that the portraits always follow Dumbledore's instructions, and they never offer advice? Maybe that's all they're there for.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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They are supposed to serve whomever is the current headmaster/headmistress. And I don't think you can really say that they don't offer advice. Doesn't Phineas always give his opinion and say that he wouldn't do things the way Dumbledore does?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Maybe the pictures are recordings that incorporate artificial intelligence. Who says there's no high tech at Hogwarts?
Speaking of which, if Voldemort really wants to do harm, why doesn't he just raid a nuclear arsenal? It does annoy me how much the "Wizarding World" ignores Muggle science and technology, let alone Muggle politics. Or don't they care if Muggles blow up the world?
But Rowling also ignores the American Wizarding World, except for mentioning their team in the Quidditch World Cup. Surely, on the basis of population, the American Wizarding World should be ten times bigger than the British, its villains ten times badder, its heroes ten times more heroic, and its magical creatures ten times more strange and varied. We need an American Harry Potter!
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Dumbledore's far too busy having his Next Great Adventure to bother with anything on the plane of mere mortals.
Though I know he's most definetely dead, I'm leaning toward a non-AK death due to past experiences we've had with the AK curse. I think Snape did his famous Leviacorpus and made Dumbly fall to his death. But I have no doubts that he is really and truly dead
PS there were more than two instances of the Avada Kedavra curse -- there was the GoF spider *where the death was carefully described because it was a classroom setting where the effects were studied*. There was also the fox in Spinners End.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Good call on the fox. Another careless AK that resulted in a limp body. And, yeah, like MidnightBlue said, ghosts are people who are scared to go on or have a reason to stay (FOREVER, not just to see something through). DD is a mad adventurer. Something as trivial as death is no biggie for him.
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Man, I think the Harry Potter books would become absolutely terrible if the wizards started raiding nuclear arsenals and carrying pump action shotguns or something. Logic has little to no place in good fantasy. I guess you could say that they're not doing it because they don't understand the Muggle world, but mostly they don't do it because it would ruin the effect of an independent, secret, fantastical world.
I mean, wouldn't it suck if in Men in Black all the aliens wanted to do was get a nuclear warhead, or walked around with glocks? Shouldn't they have tons and tons of cool alien stuff that has no relation to the mundane world?
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I've always thought it would be hilarious if in the grand final battle, the "power to defeat the Dark Lord" is simply the ability to shoot a rifle. That or as the final battle approaches, the Muggle police show up and as he curses them one at a time, they all open fire and tear him to shreds.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Heck, can you imagine how different the plots of the last three books would have been if only the students at Hogwarts, like all the other teenagers in England, had cell phones?Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Of course, we know from Pettigrew that there are spells that can blow an entire street apart.
So... who needs a rifle? Avada Kedavra is probably the only 100% certain killing curse. All the others are just "very, very damaging" curses, which might be able to be blocked.
I doubt if they teach those at school, though.
Seems like a lot of the really awesome stuff they use aren't taught in school. I mean, they don't teach you to communicate with Patronuses in school, in answer to the cell phone idea.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Well, nobody knows how to communicate with Patronuses except Order members... and maybe it's something only Dumbledore could teach. Ouch.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Afterward we can pick apart all the things that require suspension of disbelief in the Harry Potter stories. I admit to a certain perverse pleasure in doing that. But I also have to admit that the Harry Potter stories are very engrossing and entertaining, and J.K. Rowling deserves the accalim and wealth she is receiving. She is a good story-teller, and has a wonderful imagination. Thank you, JKR, for all the fun!
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Just recently finished HBP (downside of a 19-hour audiobook of something I could have read in 4-6 hours). Almost all of the bits that were "Hey! Here's a secret to wonder about!" I thought were completely predictable, and the fun bits and surprises were in the subplots (quidditch, various romances, etc). The teacher switch did catch me though, with Slughorn doing potions instead of dark arts. As soon as the HBP was actually mentioned though, in the old potions book, my thought was "PLEASE be anybody but Snape, that's way too obvious."
I'm looking forward to the 7th book mainly because with them out of Hogwarts it should be very different from the other 6. I like the other 6, but I've grown tired of some of the recurring themes: Dragging out every time Harry is told anything out over several conversations. Having something highly suspicious and not telling anybody who'd actually know what it is or who its about. That sort of thing.
For me, when the books are fun they're very fun, but when they try to be serious they usually seem very forced and just don't do it for me.
posted
Dumbledore wouldn't be a ghost- you've seen his attitude of death many times- like when Harry is nervous about Flamel dying and DD says that it's just like going to sleep.
He also would not have a horcrux- I can't remember who said this- because you have to kill to have one.
JK has said that that "gleam of triumph" or whatever it is will play a really big role in book 7.
I think there's another thing that is going to happen people often forget. I think Peter Pettigrew will help Harry somehow. At the end of book 3 when DD is talking about the bond between him and Peter for saving his life and stuff. And that someday he will be thankful for keeping him alive. I think that's a definite thing to look out for.
I think Snape is good- he wasn't pleading with Snape to stop from killing- Harry was right there- DD was the one who stopped Harry from doing anything to Snape. And I also think that Draco will have to hide from Voldy.
So I think the main people in Book 7 helping Harry will be Ron, Hermione- in the beginning- I don't think they can help him near the end at all. And Draco, Snape, and Pettigrew.
Thats my .02 dollars.
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