posted
I finally watched Buffy for the first time this year and loved it (they only made 7 seasons??? sigh...)
So now I've been trying to watch Angel and I just haven't been that excited by it so far (just finished watching the first season). Some things I liked about Buffy -- lots of characters, complex plotlines -- just haven't been there in the first season. Right now there's only 3 main characters (Angel, Cordelia, Wesley) and a few side characters who aren't given much to do, and there's hardly any plots that carry over to the next episode.
I read in another thread that Angel gets better later on. I'm tempted to skip to the later/better episodes -- if so, where's a good point to skip to?
(Again -- no spolers, please!!)
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Angel is a great show, it just started off a bit dull. It really does get much better each season.
I would say from season 3 and onward are my favorites. Season 5 is by far the best, truly excellent stuff.
Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I've been told that it gets better after season one, but I stopped watching when they killed Quin, so what do I know?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are a lot of differing opinions about whether the show got better as it went or whether it got worse. I liked it all the way through, with the exception of not liking season 4 quite as much.
Really, you should know better than to skip episodes. You can't do that. Very soon, it will start having more season archs. But ya know, stand alone episodes aren't all bad. Why do you want long drawn-out stories? That's one of the things that ruin shows.
What I always liked about Buffy is that they had the Season's arch, but they also had contained episodes. They were able to do both at once. Angel will start doing that as well.
I happen to think the first season is awesome--I love the private detective sort of feeling. Season 4 is where it takes a downward turn, but you CAN NOT SKIP IT! It's still good... just not the greatest.
Sheesh. Don't skip. It's like the worst thing you can do.
posted
I'm watching Season 1 now, and the episode where Quinn died (which I watched yesterday, actually) made me cry like a baby.
And then the next Buffyverse episode I watched immediately afterward was "Hush" - talk about a fantastic set of 2 episodes.
I think the next episode really does start to set some things into motion more, Cordelia certainly is now 'in it', and can't get out. She's really starting to grow and change, and I like that Joss is giving this change time to grow. I've also become fascinated with the concept of TPTB, and who/what exactly is Wolfram & Hart.
This, apart from the fact that everyone everywhere says that Angel really kicks it into gear, and in someways ends up surpassing Buffy in quality keeps me watching.
Let's face it - after Firefly and Buffy Season 2, I am Joss Whedon's bitch.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
And WHY is it the worst thing? Because character development and change is absolutely CENTRAL to the show. Things happen... BIG things happen that change these characters in major ways. Despite your feeling that all of these episodes are stand alone, things are happening with the characters... changing the characters...the entire dynamic of the group. You CAN'T skip it.
When long drawn-out stories are done poorly, they do ruin shows. We all know that Whedon is capable of doing it correctly. But it shouldn't be something we complain about not getting--because most likely, the writers would do it wrong anyway.
Take Enterprise. I recently finished that series. I loved it. I loved the crew, the stories, the ship... Aaah, I loved that show. We watched recordings of it after it was already cancelled and we could see exactly where it began the great downward spiral and it was so disappointing. The whole Xindi thing took WAY too long, and while there were excellent episodes in it, we were longing for the exploring nature of the show to come back. That's what made it GREAT. And the first part of the last season wasn't too great either...again, they had 2 parters all over the place. If we hadn't been watching recordings, continually waiting to see the rest of the story would have driven us away from the show entirely.
You see, I think there's a Soap Opera Syndrome that sometimes infects the writing team on a show, where they stretch out storylines to an unnatural length. Rather than having a full storyline that NEEDS two episodes, they do the timing all wrong and stretch it to two or more episodes.
(And consider the X-Files... over and over again.. "we're going to reveal everything! it's all about the aliens! blabla" and they never reveal anything.)
That's what I'm talking about.... Angel is guilty of it a little in Season 4, but because it's Whedon, it still ends up being great television.
posted
I was going to cite the X-Files and example of drawing things out too much. I had decided by the end of season 3 that the writers didn't know what they were doing, that they didn't have a plan. Sometimes it sucks to be right.
As a result, my favorite eps are the stand-alones, though I still like the mythology stories for their character development and, erm, other things. *licks Alex Krychek*
But long, drawn out stories DO ruin shows IF there is no plan going into it.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brisco County was an example of a show that needed the storyline - when they didn't have a replacement ready after Bly was taken care of, the show died. But that first season was great television, mostly because of the long storyline.
And it wasn't even that good a storyline. It was just good enough to allow the show to work.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to watch Soap Operas... so sue me...
Heh.. Anyway, I remember watching Passions for a while and ONE PARTY took several weeks to finish. One stupid party. It was the one where Ethan found out that Sam was his father. The same exact thing would happen over and over and over again. The evil Rebecca would go in the corner with Gwen and they would talk about all the wonderful things that would happen when Ethan found out. Yes, Ethan will think Theresa told, and he'll leave her, and you'll be with him, and Ivy and Julian will break up and I'll divorce your father and marry Julian, and convince him to take Ethan back into the family, and we'll all be rich and happy! Muhahaha! They barely managed to change the lines each time, explaining it in painstaking detail.
How do they do it?? A party that is supposed to take a couple hours in real time, stretched out to several weeks...
posted
I like the long, meaty/pithy stories, if they are told well and pulled out of someone's... ear as they go along.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Angel was an awesome series - I liked it almost as much as Buffy.
And I have no idea why people are slagging on season four. Sure, Conner was annoying - but everything else was fantastic. It seemed like every episode had another "I can't believe that just happened" moment.
And Wesley's character arc was the best in the Buffyverse.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I prefer Angel to Buffy. I found the stories in general to be much more interesting (though there's also the little side fact that I can't stand Sarah Michelle Gellar). And, if nothing else, there's an episode called "Smile Time" in the last season that is an absolute must. So. Funny.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I realized I'd posted a spoiler for season ONE, but he'd finished season one. Should i take it out, just in case?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find Wesley's arc mostly unbelievable. He doesn't change -- we just find him instantly changed many times.
Seriously, how does he go from incompetent goober "rogue demon hunter" to awesome bad-ass? We don't know. Just one day he wakes up and can fight.
It's just like what happened to Giles. He was physically incompetent until Wesley showed up, and all of a sudden he knew how to handle himself in a fight? Why? Because he wasn't needed for comic relief anymore. That was Wesley's job now.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You got to see hints of Gile's physical capabilities as far back as the first time his old friend (the one who calls him Ripper) showed up. And I never thought he was incompetent - it was just a running joke that he got hit on the head all the time.
Edit: Also, I never thought Wesley's physical capabilities were the heart of the arc - it's how his values change, as well as what he's willing to do to get the job done.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
One of my all-time favorite shows is Six Feet Under, which is, heartbreakingly, ending after this season.
However, seeing what they're doing with this season places the entire show in perspective. The 5 seasons of SFU were all integral in leading up to these final moments of the series, and everything, every change, every relationship, every problem, every joy, is being tested, tried, and paid off. Some in ways that are good and pleasant. Some in ways that are painful, and hurtful, and just plain realistic.
Carnivale is another series that is in and of itself a completely planned Long Form Story. If TPTB at HBO wouldn't ave pulled the plug so early, I think it would have become the new standard of excellence for the Novel for Television.
..which is what the best dramatic series actually are, in my mind. Organic visual novels - they allow characters to change over time, and for seemingly inconsequential events to have long-term effects. People change, people live, people die.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
Without giving any spoilers I think I can safely say that if you liked BtVS for an ensemble of characters with long-term plotlines and complexities and bits of humor thrown in now and then, you'll really like Angel if you stick with it.
It starts out small, but eventually there ends up being...let's see, Angel, Fred, Cordelia, Gunn, Wesley, and Lorne. That's aside from recurring shady 'gray area' types.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And yeah, I'm with Dags as usual. Wesley's was very good-Whedon puts him through some seriously agonizing decision-making processes-but Spikes is, I think, better.
Of course, by the time Spike makes it to LA, his conflicts have largely been resolved.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: You got to see hints of Gile's physical capabilities as far back as the first time his old friend (the one who calls him Ripper) showed up. And I never thought he was incompetent - it was just a running joke that he got hit on the head all the time.
As Dag said...Giles had hints of his abilities early on. I got the impression that Giles was much tougher when he was younger, remember when he was beating up his 'friend' the guy made a comment about "Ripper" being back (or something alone those lines). It seemed that Giles pushed that side of himself back when he became Buffy's watcher, and decided to become what he thought of as and "appropriate" watcher (ie: all stuffy and repressed). However, as he saw that the type of watcher that the council wanted wasn't the type of watcher that buffy needed he started falling back on some of his old Ripper techniques, and that is when we saw him suddenly become tougher.
The fact that he got a lot tougher when Wesley came can be explained by the fact that Wesley represented the type of watcher the Council thought was appropriate. I think Giles saw what he had become in Wesley and realized how pathetic that type of watcher was...so he became more fully "Ripper" and much less of a watcher.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, Giles was never incompetent. He was in fact so competent that he pulled the gang's bacon outta the fire so often that you basically stopped even noticing it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Yeah, I've been told that it gets better after season one, but I stopped watching when they killed Quin, so what do I know?
Quin? Who was Quin? I don't recall that character at all.
Also season 2 is great, with some really cool characters and plotlines, some of which do go on for several episodes.
Posts: 2332 | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
ok, went to imdb and found out that Doyle was played by Glenn Quinn, I am guessing that is who you meant. Guess I'm just slow, but Doyle was definately one of my favorite characters of all times. It sucked that he died.
Posts: 2332 | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Might want to edit that post so that it's spoiler free for those who haven't watched all of 1st season yet Marek Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also, Giles looked more competent because he was squaring off against Wesley. I could outfence Wesley (the old one). Giles looked more bumbling when he was sparring with Buffy, but nearly everyone did.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I try to be spoiler-free and you still get me. I loved that guy. He overdosed on heroin a few years ago. I stopped watching Angel when he left, or shortly thereafter.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
I particulalry adore spike in all guises. He was just the coolest. All that Britishness in one small handsome package.
I also really liked seeing Cordelia's charater grow and change and the rest of the team responding to the change. I was hugely she left .. I felt they missed out on a huge opportunity (this is hard without including spoilers!).
I left the UK before season 4 started so bought in on DVD and was hugely dissappointed. Is season 5 better?
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
As I watched Buffy I fell in love with the character of Angel so needless to say I watched all of the Angel episods and finished them yesterday. I think in general Angel was a very good show and I don't think that you can skip any of the episods because they do tend to come back to other episodes as references. I am not saying that there are no episodes that stand alone but I would suggest to watch them in order, it will make much more sense. I have to say thou that Spike and Lorne do have the best lines. Lorne is great and Spike is better. Season IV was a bit dark but it was still good and necessary.
Posts: 69 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I also like Drucilla and Darla in Angel much more than in Buffy. They are given a bigger part and it gives us a better look at Angel's past and it is worth mentioning that Drucilla is hilarious in this show. Just my thoughts
Posts: 69 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks all for opinions and for keeping things pretty spoiler-free.
I'll go ahead and give season 2 a try... I'll try to pace myself with Angel and intersperse watching it with watching other stuff I know I like (right now, Deadwood and Gilmore Girls).
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
Now I know one wouldn't exist without the other, and part of my appreciation of Angel is dependent on what happened on Buffy....
But I like that it's a darker series with more interesting character arcs and stronger running plot lines. Dagonee's assessment of Westley is right on and one of the things I like about the series. But, you know, I think Gunn's story arc arc is even more interesting and unexpected.
Angel has a coherence too it that very few series develop or even maintain. And by the last 2 seasons, all the baggage that has accumulated freights everything with such weight, that it's totally fascinating -- every look, piece of dialogue, action is filled with tension. But, in my opinion, it never became overwrought or tiresome (unlike, say, the romantic jugglings on Friends).
And: I agree Zemra.
Faith is better character on Angel too. Heck, even Willow seems more interesting in her brief appearances.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
So I gave season 2 a try, and liked it a lot better right away -- much sharper writing and more interesting stories (and, yep, more story arcs, yum). It lost some steam towards the end of the end of the season... but I still liked it better than season 1, and I've started season 3 and liked it so far.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
CT.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
