I read that this morning. My sister called me pretty much right after I read it. We all knew Nate. I graduated with his older sister, my sister went to school with Nate and their younger brother Kyle. The entire family is filled with fantastic people...just...damn.
Nate was biking down Rt. 109 and a driver in a minivan pulled out in front of him. He hit the car straight-on and was killed almost instantly. He was wearing a helmet.
I remember someone posting a thread about death the other day and how you would react.
This isn't about me, and I can't even imagine what his family must be going through.
But it makes me remember what Tante said on that thread:
quote:Death is only tragic when it comes before you’ve had a chance to complete your work in this world. Otherwise, as an inevitable part of life, it is no more tragic and unfair than being born. They are both parentheses framing life.
Nate had only started his work.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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My sister and I had just been talking about him last week. My sister and her boyfriend want to get another dog and we were dicussing what type to get. Finally, I told her that a golden is what would suit them, and she agreed. Then asked where she could get one, from a good breeder. Nate's family breeds goldens and I told her to go there. They're great with them. The dogs are all there on site. They have a huge farming property. The dogs are well socialized, all welcome in the house. It's a pack of well cared for awesome goldens. If we ever get a golden, that's where I'd get one from.
So then my sister said she knows of the the kids, and that kid was Nate. And we talked about him, his younger brother, their older sister. One of the other ladies at the salon (my sister was cutting my hair) said she worked with his mother.
I think I'm really upset for him and his family. All of them so close, you know?
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This both saddens me and makes me angry. It saddens me because of the death and makes me angry because I would almost bet that the road wasn't built with pedestrian traffic in mind, and thus could have been avoidable.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Stormy, you're right. It wasn't built with pedestrians in mind. The area is rural (it's where I grew up). Oddly, I always thought that area more safe to ride a bike than here in the city (well, what passes for the city in NH).
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I can only hope that maybe as gas prices go up, the demand for such a thing will increase. Though I'm not holding my breath. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Even if the road had been built with pedestrians in mind, bicyclists aren't pedestrians they are traffic.
The one thing that is most effective in improving the safety of cyclists, is to hold motorized vehicle operators responsible for cyclists safety. Numerous things have been tried around the world. Bike lanes, cyclist education, separated bike paths and so on. The only things that has made a consistant big difference in cyclist safety are laws that hold car drivers responsible for bicycle safety.
About 5 years ago, Germany and the Netherlands passed laws which held car drivers responsible for all collisions a cyclist under 14 years of age. These laws also included more extensive training for drivers and a publicity campaign to heighten awareness of drivers responsibilities toward pedestrians and cyclists. When these laws went into effect, the number of cyclist (both under 14 and above 14) who were killed by cars dropped by 64% in Germany and by 57% in the Netherlands.
What the experiences in Germany and the Netherlands prove is that if Car drivers are held responsible for the safety of cyclists and pedestrians who share the road, they can avoid hitting them. The big problem with walking and riding in the US is that a fair fraction of drivers do not take their responsibilities for others safety seriously and fully believe that cyclists have no right to the road.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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That is complete crap...there are a lot of things you could do, but making other people responsible for someone else mistakes isn't the answer...
Not that that is what happened in this case...
Mack, I am very sorry, both for his family and for anyone who knows them.
I have hit a kid, fortunately going very slowly...he pulled out right in front of me, against my right-of-way, from between two parked cars. I slammed on the brakes and slid into him...and I had been going 5 mph LESS than the posted speed limit at the time. There was nothing I could have done, and he was lucky I was so alert to be honest.
You can't have it both ways...if they are motor vehicles (and by law they are, the biker is the motor) they have to be responsible for their own actions. It is possible to get a DWI on a bike, did you know that?
Something needs to be done to make it safe for everyone, but making drivers, some of whom did everything right ans STILL hit someone, responsible for bike riders errors isn't the right thing to do.
If something like this situation, where the car was a fault, happens I would agree with prosecuting them, but in every situation?
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Kwea, What the Dutch and German experiences have shown is that in the majority of cases, car drivers can avoid hitting cyclists and if the expected under the law to avoid hitting cyclist -- far fewer cyclists get killed. There are of course exceptions, but in nearly all collisions both drivers bear some fault. If people are made aware that it is their responsibility to avoid crashes, even when they have the right of way -- fewer people get hurt.
quote:There was nothing I could have done, and he was lucky I was so alert to be honest.
Why was he lucky that you were so alert? Isn't it the responsibility of drivers to be alert. Why do you see this as some mere luck on the kids part? What the Dutch and German laws do, is make it perfectly clear that it was your responsibility to be that alert. You were meeting your responsibility by driving slowly and watching out for kids, as a result the kid wasn't killed.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Not really...he went flying,and had he landed wrong all my allertness would have been worthless.
I was using a raod, driving under the speed limit, and paying attention, and he still could have died...
and I don't care what you say, I would not have been at fault. He was crossing against traffic, from between cars, no where near an intersection. Regardless of the law, I would ahve felt horrible, but there is NOTHING I could ahve done different other than not drive at all...and under what you are suggesting I would have been at fault completely.
That sounds like a load of crap to me. Either they ARE a MV, or they are not...of they are THEY share in the resonsibility of traffic contol.
Nothing personal, but as you can tell this hits home to me, a little too close to home to be comfortable to be honest. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I never said you were at fault. Under the laws in Germany and the Netherlands, if it was clear that nothing you could have done would have prevented the accident, you would not be held responsible. What the laws say is that if you could have stopped before hitting the bicyclist, it was your responsibility to do it even though you had the right of way.
If the cyclist had been over 14 and you could have stopped, both you and the cyclist would have been held partially responsible.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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You're arguing a specific case against a generality.
As a bicyclist, I can tell you that there are loads of times when drivers just flat out assume that they don't have to accomodate bicyclists, because they don't believe that bikes belong on the road.
I suspect that your case, as you describe it, wouldn't result in liability on your part, even under the Dutch and German laws Rabbit describes.
But I can't count how many times a car has passed me and then turned right, directly in front of me. If I was a car, it would be like turning right from the left lane, but since I'm a bike, they think they don't have to consider my presence.
Recently someone actually stopped their car to tell my mother that she was not allowed on the road, because she could ride on the sidewalk.
And I used to get honked at all the time (and worse), because I'm "in their way," simply because I'm riding on the street. You can also tell in some cases, where the driver does a split second double take, and then looks away from the bicyclist, as if by not looking at you it will be your fault if they hit you, because "I didn't see him." Yeah, they didn't see me bacause they intentionally averted their eyes.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:He was crossing against traffic, from between cars, no where near an intersection. Regardless of the law, I would ahve felt horrible, but there is NOTHING I could ahve done different other than not drive at all...
You have misunderstood. The laws in Germany and the Netherlands do allow for the possibility that nothing you can do would have avoided the accident. What the laws in Germany and the Netherlands say, is that if there is anything you possibly could have done to avoid the accident, you were legally obligated to do it. Even if he was crossing against traffic, from between cars, no where near and intersection, if you had had time to stop or swerve, you had a legal obligation to do it. It's clear that you feel you had a moral obligation to do everthing in your power (short of not driving) to avoid that accident.
My point was not the car drivers were always at fault. My point was that when Germany and the Netherlands passed laws which increased automobile drivers legal responsibility for the safety of cyclists and pedestrians and particularly children, the number of collisions between cyclists and cars dropped to less than half the previous value. The data clearly demonstrates that in the majority of cases, car drivers COULD do something to avoid the collisions but were not doing it. When their awareness was raised and their liability was increased, they DID do something about it and it save lives.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I feel that that would only encourage cyclists to abuse that law, as I have personally seen MANY cyclists do.
I have a moral objection to makinig anyone resopnsible for anothers actions, at least when dealing with two (or more) adults.
I am not saying that all cyclists are irresponsible, but I have seen many, many accidents and close calls that were caused by the person on the bike not obeying traffic laws.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I really don't like that law either. Especially the under 14 part, because its kids who are the most dangerous to me and themselves. I don't know about elsewhere, but in my neighborhood there are a lot of kids out riding, not just on the side streets with homes, but the avenues as well so we're not talking about 25 mph speed limit, and they ride recklessly, swerving from side to side on both sides of the street and the last time I've seen one wear a helmet was probably the last time I went riding with my little brother or sister and that was a long time ago.
Even when I'm bicycling myself I think I'm more concerned about the other cyclists than the autos. Cars are more likely to actually be going the direction they're supposed and usually they seem more afraid of hitting me than me afraid of getting hit by them. Bikes seem to careen recklessly in any direction that suits them best, be it on the road, bike lane, or sidewalk and they seemed very determined to have me get out of their way and not the other way around. I will say, however, that these experiences come from dealing with fellow college cyclists and not more "professional," older ones.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Right after reading this thread to JenniK we went and looked at the truck...adn three people, all about 18-20, came riding their bikes on a divided four lane road...GOING THE WRONG WAY DOWN THE ENTRANCE RAMP to I-91!!! Then right down the wrong way of the four lane divides road...
Talk about RL coming to the rescue and proving my point! Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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While I think that drivers definitely need to be alert and watching in an area where there are cyclists, I do tend to agree with Kwea and nfl that many cyclists believe that the rules of the road don't apply to them at all.
Example: I was going down a road with a bike lane yesterday. There was a cyclist in front of me (not in the bike lane) who was swerving all around the lane. Ok, fine, I keep my distance. We reached a four-way stop at which there are two cars in front of the cyclist, he swerves around them into the middle of the road, and, rather than wait for the other cars in the intersection to go in their time, zips through around all the cars through the intersection.
Yes, this is a specific case, but it's hardly unique; I see it constantly all over Bloomington. I treat bikes as if they were vehicles, but it sure would be nice if they actually followed the rules of the road (like stopping at a four-way stop, and not riding down the middle of the road).
Mack, I'm very sorry for your friend and his family; any accident is tragic. Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I want to ride my bike. I always mean to take my bike up to my sister's and go riding there, but that's where the accident happened, up there. I thought it'd be safer there, in a rural area, than here, in the city.
quote:While I think that drivers definitely need to be alert and watching in an area where there are cyclists, I do tend to agree with Kwea and nfl that many cyclists believe that the rules of the road don't apply to them at all.
This is extremely prevalent in Chicago, most especially in the Loop. Riding the wrong way down one way streets, zigzagging between cars, jumping between the street and the sidewalk, blowing lights, etc. We've even had bike messengers cause accidents with pedestrians that involved serious injuries and in at least one recent case death.
Apparently the Chicago police are "going" to start cracking down on the bike laws, but no idea when that's gonig to start. Not a day too soon, in my opinion.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mack, I am very sorry for your loss, it is very hard to lose someone that is so young. It is scary and puts life in perspective. I will put you and Nates family in my prayers.
Kwea, I see where you are comeing from. It is not always the drivers fault, there are as many irresponsible cyclists as there are drivers. Each situation is different. I have seen people riding their bikes in the middle of the night on a dark road wearing dark clothes. There were even times when I couldnt see them until they were directly in front of me and I had to swerve out of the way.
There are many drivers though who are definately at fault. My dad was walking in the middle of the day in broad day light and a car hit him (the side view mirror) and knocked him over. The driver kept driving as if nothing happened, fortunately my dad was not hurt.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Jul 2005
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