posted
I don't know that we really pay grocery stores for food. We pay them to package, distribute, and store it. I guess that's why it's called a store. Most people live in a city under the notion of a social contract that they will be supplied with food by the system under which they work. None of this is legally defensible, of course. And it's not like the system didn't give proper warning to everyone that it was not going to be able to sustain them.
Why didn't people leave? I imagine some might have been sick, or stayed with someone who was. Some might have anticipated the opportunity to loot. We can't know what someone's intent was from observing their behavior and slapping a label on it.
Even in the case of a luxury item, the person may be mentally ill, which could be why they didn't obey the order to leave, and they have hoarding OCD. Yeah, they shouldn't break into places. It's that age old question of what a mental illness justifies. Even if one didn't start out with a mental disorder, their world has been turned upside down. I'm not saying there are no people who aren't just grabbing for greed.
I think "looting" would by definition involve taking more than one needs. If someone already posted a different definition, I apologize.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Also, some people could be already suffering health problems. Like people using Dialysis- it's been said that they are suffering horribly, or people who can barely walk, it would be difficult for them to leave.
I personally would probably take what was necessary for survival- but then again- I'd also be smart enough to avoid a freaking hurricane! But, if for whatever reason I couldn't or it was like an earthquake or something- then yes, I would. I doubt I'd keep a tally of what I took so I could pay back the store owner either- but I'd do what's necessary for me to ensure the survival of the people I love. TV's, expensive shoes, that's not high on my "necessary for survival" list- take things like medicine (my entire family takes medicine- so that'd be a real problem for us, especially since I suffer seizures and my mom has cluster headaches) and food and bottled water. Items like these- I would definitely take.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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ABCNews:Why do some stay, despite evacuation orders?
quote:Aug. 30, 2005 — New Orleans resident Richard Thomas heard the orders to evacuate ahead of Hurricane Katrina. But like thousands of others, he chose to stay and ride it out.
"They wanted to move, they wanted to go to Mississippi, but I said I wasn't going to go," he said.
...
"There's a certain amount of denial involved," said Dr. John Stutesman, director of outpatient treatment in psychiatry at Chicago's Northwestern Memorial Hospital. "They allow themselves to believe they can handle the storm."
In New Orleans, many residents said they had no means to leave. Many ended up in a stuffy, collapsing Superdome. Images of thousands of people shuffling around the stadium as the roof tore off will be a lasting image of the destruction caused by Katrina.
Kathleen Bartels, a Hammond, La., resident, told ABC News that she and her family tried to flee, but found they couldn't make it out. They decided to ride the storm out in their home.
...
When faced with the idea of being completely out of control of a situation and at the mercy of Mother Nature, people stay on because it gives them a sense of control, experts say. People also stay on out of fear of losing everything they have.
quote: But they couldn't rent a car, ride the bus, ride a bike or call a cab?
I take it you've never been destitute. If you don't have a credit card, you can't rent a car, period. If you are under 24, you probably can't rent a car even if you have a credit card. Even if you've got all the money in the world, I bet you couldn't have found a rental car company with a car available last weekend. If there is an evacuation order, you can bet the greyhound will be sold out. You must remember, there were over 1 million people trying to get out of the city.
Call a cab? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a cab to drive you out of the Hurricane zone?
Ride a bike? For 60 to 100 miles with gridlock traffic and an approaching Hurricane? I'm a very serious long distance cyclists and I'm not sure whether I'd choose that risk over the risk of the Hurricane.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I'd also have to say that in a situation like this their is a fine line between looting and salvaging. If the water levels are rising and everything in the store will be ruined in a couple of hours, isn't it better for some one to grab a TV and take it to high ground where it will stay dry, even if they keep it for themselves, than it would be to simply let it sit there and be destroyed by the rising water.
You also have to consider that after the flood waters have retreated and people start cleaning up the mess. Either the business or their insurance companies will likely sell everything to a salvage company for a penny on the dollar or less. I'm not sure I see a big ethical difference between a large company that makes their profits salvaging and the poor kid who "loots" a stereo.
Don't get me wrong. I think stealing is wrong under any circumstances, I'm simply trying to put what is going on in context. Something which our sensationalistic news will never do.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
This is mostly what I was referring to earlier. (Yes, TVs and appliances, and whatever, in addition to food, for those who were arguing.) Sure, ideally it would be nice to find the person and return it to them later. If you can't, or don't want to do this, though, it's still no worse than simply letting it be destroyed.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Anyone that has what they need to survive and then chooses to walk/wade/swim past countless helpless humans in order to rescue a TV for later use certainly has his priorities confused.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Sorry, but I still think that in this situation a person should spend his energy on more constructive activities than trying to salvage a TV that he has nowhere to take and which may not even work. So given the circumstances, I think it is morally wrong to steal what is not absolutely necessary for one's survival.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
There's a couple from Cedar Rapids, Iowa down in New Orleans that tried to get out, but decided to stay when the cab driver demanded $1000 to take them to the airport.
On TV, I saw a woman saying she lives paycheck to paycheck, so she has no savings or extra money to be able to leave.
On the looting thing - if my kids were hungry, I would probably take food, if that was the only choice. (I'm thinking of canned goods.) I would try to avoid it, though, if at all possible, and make amends later if I did have to take something. But TVs, etc., no way.
I didn't see this on TV, someone at work told me about it.
Reporter to person taking things from a store (clothing, I think): "sir, are you salvaging things from your store?" Man: "Ma'am, this is everybody's store."
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Hey, I'm neither destitute nor disabled and I probably could not get out of Phoenix if we had to evacuate. I don't have a car or a bike. I can't rent a car because I'm 20. There's no way I could walk out of here, even if it weren't 105 degrees F. The public transportation isn't great. I suppose the University might take care of the students on campus, but I bet they don't have the resources.
There's a halfway decent chance I could get a ride with someone I know. Unfortunately, that would be my only chance.
So, if you ever have to evacuate your city, and you haven't filled your car completely, see who needs help leaving.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I know plenty of people who wouldn't be able to leave my city if an evacuation were demanded. We almost never have natural disaster issues, so I'm really not that worried. But if it came down to it, my family would probably have to leave literally everything behind to make room for family and friends who don't have transportation out.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The reason they try to stop looters, even though everyone knows most of the merchandise is ruined or insured, is because without order, then chaos reigns.
The bad element of society, which may have already had some organization in the area, then takes over - much like a gang, and begins to exert control, instead of the police/government having control.
quote: But as night fell, police chased looters across the darkenened streets amid mounting pillaging of stores, carjackings and armed robberies.
One nurse told how helicopters evacuating patients from a local hospital had been fired upon. There were also reports of men armed with automatic rifles opening fire in a police station.
posted
FG's post made me think about the chaotic mob scene in War of the Worlds, and then I read some of the recent news articles about crime and looting.
"Tempers were beginning to flare in the aftermath of the storm. Police said a man fatally shot his sister in the head over a bag of ice in Hattiesburg, Miss."
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Also, no offense, but if you've been to New Orleans, it's not hard to WALK places. Unless your legs are broken/unusable, then they still have no reasonable excuse for staying behind. All they had to do to escape the worst flooding is walk anywhere from 2 to 7 miles to any of the shelters around.
Don't get me wrong. I have pity on those that are stuck and suffering the same way I do for someone who smokes until they contract lung cancer.
It's sad but if they can WADE through chest high water to loot a TV, then they sure as hell could have walked to an evacuation center. Why didn't they?
That's my question: What did you try to do to get out or did you even try?
Pity and anger at the same time.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Now I'm thinking of War of the Worlds too. When I was telling people I liked it for how it depicted the panicked mob, many said it wasn't realistic. Now I wish they were right. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I think some of the people castigating the survivors for not leaving and for not going to "official" shelters or evacuation sites are more than a little clueless about what chaos really means.
quote: Desperation, death on road to safety Wednesday, 11:09 p.m.
By Keith Spera Staff writer
At 91 years old, Booker Harris ended his days propped on a lawn chair, covered by a yellow quilt and abandoned, dead, in front of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center.
Mr. Harris died in the back of a Ryder panel truck Wednesday afternoon, as he and his 93-year-old wife, Allie, were evacuated from eastern New Orleans. The truck's driver deposited Allie and her husband's body on the Convention Center Boulevard neutral ground.
And there it remained.
With 3,000 or more evacuees stranded at the convention center -- and with no apparent contingency plan or authority to deal with them -- collecting a body was no one's priority. It was just another casualty in Hurricane Katrina's wake.
A steady stream of often angry or despondent people, many from flooded Central City, trickled first toward Lee Circle and then to the convention center, hoping to be saved from increasingly desperate straits. Food, water and options had dwindled across Uptown and Central City, where looters seemed to rage almost at will, clearing out boutique clothing shops and drug stores alike. Hospitals would no longer accept emergencies, as staffers prepared to evacuate with patients.
"If you get shot," said a security guard at Touro Infirmary, "you’ve got to go somewhere else."
As a blazing sun and stifling humidity took their toll, 65-year-old Faye Taplin rested alone on the steps of the Christ Cathedral in the 2900 block of St. Charles Avenue. Rising water had finally chased her from her Central City home. She clutched two plastic bags containing bedding, a little food and water and insulin to treat her diabetes.
She needed help but was unsure where to find it. She wanted to walk more than 15 blocks to a rumored evacuation pickup point beneath the Pontchartrain Expressway, but she doubted that was possible.
"I'm tired," she said. "My feet have swollen up on me. I can't walk that far."
The church custodian, Ken Elder, hoped to free his car from the parking lot behind the church as soon as the water went down. He rode out Katrina on the Episcopal church’s altar steps and was well stocked with food. But he feared the marauding looters that roamed St. Charles Avenue after dark.
"I lived in Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots," Elder said. "That was a piece of cake compared to this."
Clara Wallace pushed her brother in a wheelchair down St. Charles from Fourth Street to the Pontchartrain Expressway. Suffering from diabetes and the after-effects of a stroke, he wore only a hospital robe and endured part of the journey through standing water.
"Nobody has a bathroom he can use," Wallace, 59, said of her brother. "Nobody would even stop to tell us if we were at the right place. What are we supposed to do?"
A man in a passing pickup truck from the state Department of Wildlife and Fisheries finally directed Wallace and the 50 other evacuees under the overpass to the convention center.
But they would find little relief there.
New evacuees were being dropped off after being pulled from inundated eastern New Orleans and Carrollton, pooling with those who arrived on foot. Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions. They waited both inside and outside the cavernous building.
The influx overwhelmed the few staffers and Louisiana National Guardsmen on hand.
With so much need and so few resources, the weakest and frailest were bound to suffer the most. Seated next to her husband's body on the neutral ground beneath the St. Joseph Street sign, Allie Harris munched on crackers, seemingly unaware of all the tragedy unfolding around her. Eventually, guardsmen loaded her into a truck and hauled her off with other elderly evacuees.
Mr. Harris' body was left behind.
Such a breakdown did not bode well for other evacuees. As the afternoon wore on, hope faded, replaced by anger.
"This is 2005," John Murray shouted, standing in the street near Mr. Harris' body. "It should not be like this for no catastrophe. This is pathetic."
Times-Picayune Of the 3 THOUSAND refugees, "Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions."
So it's just lame to say people should go to official shelters and hope the gov'ment comes through with food and water.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Looting for food and water is okay. The food'll go off anyway.
Looting for electronics, shoes and jewelry is not. I understand why it's happening, but that's America's job to examine why in the aftermath, and I'm not going into that now.
EDIT: Shoes, maybe. A pair of boots or running shoes if you can't walk in what you've got on.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
An explanation for the shooting at helicopters.
Apparently the shooters are yelling at the helicopters to pick up their families. Of course the helicopters simply don't land at all, so everybody loses.
Don't expect people to make sense in this state of tragedy.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I expect chaos. I don't have to endorse violence. I can't concievably believe that I would ever reach a place where I would shoot at someone trying to give me aid. Actually, I can think of two possible scenarios: 1) if I overheard people on the ground talking about overtaking the helicopter when it landed and killing the pilot etc. 2) if we had a horribly untreatable contagious disease.
I know that if the world suddenly pludged into a natural disaster I'd be at the store picking at the canned food, toilet paper and bottled water as much as anyone. I might also go for things other people would really need, like flashlights, batteries, saucepans, umbrellas, candles and tents. I do not see that jewellry and such things would have any conceivable use unless, like these desperate people, I saw this as my chance to make myself more economically equal.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Am I the only person who's pictured scuba divers going from bank to bank with underwater cutting torches?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Looting and shooting is unforgivable. But I can understand this type of do-it-yourself rescue missions.
School bus comandeered by renegade refugees first to arrive at Astrodome
The first busload of New Orleans refugees to reach the Reliant Astrodome overnight was a group of people who commandeered a school bus in the city ravaged by Hurricane Katrina and drove to Houston looking for shelter.
Jabbar Gibson, 20, said police in New Orleans told him and others to take the school bus and try to get out of the flooded city.
Gibson drove the bus from the flooded Crescent City, picking up stranded people, some of them infants, along the way. Some of those on board had been in the Superdome, among those who were supposed to be evacuated to Houston on more than 400 buses Wednesday and today. They couldn't wait.
The group of mostly teenagers and young adults pooled what little money they had to buy diapers for the babies and fuel for the bus.
After arriving at the Astrodome at about 10:30 p.m., however, they initially were refused entry by Reliant officials who said the aging landmark was reserved for the 23,000 people being evacuated from the Louisiana Superdome.
"Now, we don't have nowhere to go," Gibson said. "We heard the Astrodome was open for people from New Orleans. We ain't ate right, we ain't slept right. They don't want to give us no help. They don't want to let us in."
Milling about the Reliant entrance, Sheila Nathan, 38, told her teary-eyed toddler that she was too tired to hold him.
"I'm trying to make it a fairy tale so they won't panic," said Nathan, who had four grandchildren in tow. "I have to be strong for them."
After about 20 minutes of confusion and consternation, Red Cross officials announced that the group of about 50 to 70 evacuees would be allowed into the Astrodome.
All were grateful to be out of the devastation and misery that had overtaken their hometown.
"I feel good to get out of New Orleans," said Demetrius Henderson, who got off the bus with his wife and three children. Many of those around him alternated between excited, cranky and nervous, clutching suitcases or plastic garbage bags of clothes.
They looked as bedraggled as their grueling ride would suggest: 13 hours on the commandeered bus driven by a 20-year-old man. Watching bodies float by as they tried to escape the drowning city. Picking up people along the way. Three stops for fuel. Chugging into Reliant Park, only to be told initially that they could not spend the night.
Every bit worth it.
"We took the bus and got out of the city. We were trying to get out of the city," James Hickerson said.
Several passengers on the bus said they took the matter into their own hands earlier Wednesday because they felt rescuers and New Orleans authorities were too slow in offering help.
"They are not worried about us," said Makivia Horton, 22, who is five months pregnant.
posted
By that logic (and this is a maybe) if I knew my next door neighbors had a good grill, and they became vegans, and I KNEW they would never use the grill again, I would be justified in sneakin over into their yard at night and taking off with the grill. The problem isnt people taking what they need for survival, the problem is people saying "you are selfish if you dont give me these things. How do you KNOW a TV is going to be ruined by water? My sister dropped by game boy into the tub (luckily it was switched off when she did) I let it dry out for several days, turned it on and it worked fine. This wasnt about just food. There were shoe stores being looted with police standing in front of them too afraid to stop the masses of people. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED SHOES FOR? FOR SWIMMING?
I agree 100% with one of the earlier posters. If you need the things you are taking then you are obligated to leave monetary compensation or at least leave a note with your information if the person wants to persue legal action. If you are in the moral high ground you shouldnt fear the legality of what you are doing.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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