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Author Topic: Bush vs. the Hurricane
Prankster
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I was going to email this to Mr. Card, but I can't find a logical place to do so, so I am posting it here.

In his essay "Jackals After The Storm", Mr. Card states: "I'll take the critics seriously when one of them shows me footage or paper that demonstrates that they knew and gave warning that the levee would break, and nobody listened."

In fact, FEMA ranked a possible levee breach in New Orleans as one of the most likely and potentially catastrophic disasters to hit America as far back as 2001 (others listed include a terrorist attack on New York City, which proves that these guys know what they're talking about.) Bush's statement about anticipating the breach of the levees is demonstratably untrue.

Furthermore, Bush had made specific funding decisions that exacerbated the problem with the levees, and according to the Red Cross, the Department of Homeland Security had specifically prevented them from entering the city for several days. Many also feel that Bush's merging of FEMA with the DHS contributed to that organization's inability to act swiftly and decisively.

The Katrina disaster was a failure at all levels of government, including the federal. To deflect criticism of the Bush adminstration's part in the debacle by claiming that "there was nothing he could have done" and attributing it all to "jackals" in the news media is disingenuous in the extreme. Many, many people are honestly and genuinely upset about the administration's reaction to this crisis. I don't think it's unreasonable that the leader of the country make an attempt to lead, and that he make hard decisions that could prevent disaster regardless of the supposed "ridicule" he would have come under for doing so. After all, isn't that what Bush's supporters claim he's good at?

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Kwea
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Not to burst your bubble, but have you rad the threads about this that have been floating around since the hurricaine?


Most of this has been mentioned more than once, as have counter-claims (some of which were very interesting) from the people who balme the local government.


I worked for a large govermnment facility in the safety office, so I have some practial expreience in these matters, although at this level of need, and all I say is that there were plenty of idiots at all levels, and plenty of blame to go around.


I just hope thy learned from this and do better if it happenes again, and I hope the people who did try and help in these situations know how much we appreciate it.


We need MUCH better planning on all levels of government, and a greater awareness of potential disaster in the future.


Kwea

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mr_porteiro_head
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Why do you keep posting your threads on both sides of the forum?
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Rose the ____
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well, in this case, he posted it on the other forum, I assume because he thought he was commenting on OSC, his work, his views, whatever. you would think you could comment about Mr. Card on the discussion board devoted to discussing Mr. Card.

he got scared off by SteveRogers.

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Irregardless
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quote:
Furthermore, Bush had made specific funding decisions that exacerbated the problem with the levees,
But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times larger...

quote:
and according to the Red Cross, the Department of Homeland Security had specifically prevented them from entering the city for several days.
Uh, no. Read it more closely. The STATE DHS -- i.e., Gov. Blanco's administration -- prevented them from entering.
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FlyingCow
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And here I thought this was another Tom Hanks vehicle.
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fugu13
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I do love how there's a criteria completely irrelevant to the validity of most of the criticism used to determine if the criticism should be listened to.
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fugu13
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FlyingCow: you mean Meg Ryan, right?
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Dagonee
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quote:
according to the Red Cross, the Department of Homeland Security had specifically prevented them from entering the city for several days.
According to the Red Cross, the STATE prevented them from entering the city. From your very own link:

quote:
Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane.

Link to the web site for this state department: http://www.loep.state.la.us/

Care to revise your statement a little?

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Kwea
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How about the fact that the ACoE said that even had all of the funding gone throguh the levees would not have been strong enouogh, because the work needed would ahve taken several more years to complete?


On the flip side, evne though NO got more than any other place, they got far less than they needed, and far less that they were originaly promised....the funding WAS cut, several times.


There was alos the fact that some of the money that was earmarked for the levee system got used for other projects, and teh decision for this was made by local politicions, not by Washington.


I hold Buch and co responsible for things under their control, like teh FEMA debacle, but not all of the problem were in the Federal government.

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aspectre
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FEMA delayed -- for three days -- a thousand or so firefighters/etc from various cities across the country by sending them to Georgia for federal sexual harrassment (etc) seminars.
Then told them that their job was to be public relations officers for FEMA. Including quickly shipping off fifty firefighters to surround Dubya during a photo op.

Federal FEMA officials told Chicago churches to wait for orders/permission before sending down truckloads of relief supplies. Fortunately, the churches decided to take the route of civil disobedience and sent them any way, cuz the Feds had sent nothing to the churches' delivery destinations even five days later

Federally, FEMA purchased tons upon tons of ice from all over the country for disaster relief, then ordered those ice-delivery trucks to sit for days (at $3,000 per day) before telling the drivers to deliver the loads to eg Idaho for storage.

Federally, the Department of Agriculture seized Britain's multi-million dollar shipment of NATO ration packets -- equivalent to the US military's MRIs -- to prevent delivery to disaster victims. Apparently, DoA is intending to burn them as a bio-hazard.

[ September 21, 2005, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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Dagonee
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By the way, I've done military construction funding. Everything is reduced from the agency request to the President's Budget.

Every. Single. Project.

The other thing to remember is that congressional delegations, especially in the house, have a LOT of say over projects within a state.

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FlyingCow
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Meg Ryan, Tom Hanks... at least the director was never allowed to helm anything else ever.
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Prankster
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I was mistaken about which forum to post in, as I explained in that forum. And I posted it here because I had been trying for a while to find a way to email it directly to Mr. Card (or OSC, as seems to be the nickname). I only recently became aware of this forum, and Mr. Card's column only went up a day or two ago.

I wish this discussion wasn't being characterized as "people who blame the federal government" vs. "people who blame the local government". I'm taking Bush to task, but that doesn't mean I don't think the state and municipal governments didn't bungle things. I'm just responding directly to OSC and others who seem to have the attitude of "what was the president gonna do?"

There's certainly no denying that the levees have needed shoring up for decades, and that in a sense every administration since 1965 is partly culpable. (Which is why the fact that Clinton sprung to Bush's defense didn't exactly sway me. He's partly responsible too!)

As for the Red Cross thing--couldn't the federal DHS have superceded the dumb decisions being made on the state level? I mean, I'm not privvy to the inner workings of the DHS, but it's hard to believe they were operating in a total vacuum.

Look, I understand that there was a lot of confusion and chaos, and that no matter what Bush had done there would have been loss of life, miscommunication, and inertia. When the tragedy first hit and I heard some mutterings about the fact that Bush was still on vacation, the first reaction I--and a lot of my friends who are no fans of the president--had was to say, "That's stupid, you can't hold Bush accountable for this." But as the days passed it became obvious that whatever the federal government could have done to save lives, it wasn't doing it. The fact that dumb decisions were made low on the chain of command does not excuse those further up it if they had the chance to intervene. Maybe things would have turned out EXACTLY the same had Bush made this his top priority, sent FEMA to help out right away, and exerted his full presidential authority to cut through the red tape. The state and local governments might still have cost lives through incompetence--in fact, they almost certainly would have. But it probably would have helped at least somewhat, and I sure wouldn't be here criticising Bush, because he honestly would have done everything he could.

That's the part that bugs me: the idea that we're only criticizing Bush because that's our knee-jerk response to everything, and that nothing he could have done would have mollified us. It's an extremely weak defense, and even if accurate, what does it say about this Administration that, knowing they'd be "damned if they do and damned if they don't", they didn't just choose to act in a way that would save lives?

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TL
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Oh, the same thread is on both sides of hatrack...

Didn't know. And I responded on the other side.

Hmmm.

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Mr. Card's column only went up a day or two ago.

We sometimes start the discussion without him.


What if the hurricane was named Bush? </SNL>

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DarkKnight
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Prankster, I guess my question to you is if you keep stating things like....
quote:
The Katrina disaster was a failure at all levels of government, including the federal
quote:
There's certainly no denying that the levees have needed shoring up for decades, and that in a sense every administration since 1965 is partly culpable
quote:
but that doesn't mean I don't think the state and municipal governments didn't bungle things
quote:
I understand that there was a lot of confusion and chaos, and that no matter what Bush had done there would have been loss of life, miscommunication, and inertia
quote:
Maybe things would have turned out EXACTLY the same had Bush made this his top priority
Why must we have threads focused soley on what Bush did wrong? If, by your own admission, there are failings at every level wouldn't it be more beneficial to look at and discuss all of the failings instead of just critizing Bush?
Your last paragraph..
quote:
That's the part that bugs me: the idea that we're only criticizing Bush because that's our knee-jerk response to everything, and that nothing he could have done would have mollified us. It's an extremely weak defense, and even if accurate, what does it say about this Administration that, knowing they'd be "damned if they do and damned if they don't", they didn't just choose to act in a way that would save lives?
So if the Adminstration had run over state and local government officials, if Bush had forcibly bussed people out of there before the hurricane hit, how many people, including yourself would be starting threads about how Bush is a dictator?
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Tresopax
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quote:
Why must we have threads focused soley on what Bush did wrong? If, by your own admission, there are failings at every level wouldn't it be more beneficial to look at and discuss all of the failings instead of just critizing Bush?
So, the real question should not be about why we have threads focused on Bush, but rather why we DON'T also have threads focused on state and local failings...

For me, it's because I have no power over what officials in Louisianna do, and they don't really have much power over me, so it's not really an issue to me. On the other hand, I can vote for Bush and he can do plenty to effect me, so I care about his competence in solving these sorts of things.

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Dagonee
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quote:
As for the Red Cross thing--couldn't the federal DHS have superceded the dumb decisions being made on the state level?
No. Our system of government doesn't work that way.
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DarkKnight
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quote:
So, the real question should not be about why we have threads focused on Bush, but rather why we DON'T also have threads focused on state and local failings...
That is not what I said at all. I said to look at ALL the failings.
quote:
For me, it's because I have no power over what officials in Louisianna do, and they don't really have much power over me, so it's not really an issue to me.
You really think your state is all that different? Do you honestly believe your Mayor or Governer is really any better prepared?
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kmbboots
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There is plenty that has gone wrong at all levels of government. The claim, however, that the Governor didn't request assistance correctly or soon enough or that the Federal Government didn't have the necessary authority to do what it needed to do is just plain wrong.

According to the Congressional Research Service (a nonpartisan office that works for the entire Congress) Governor Blanco followed all the necessary steps to request federal aid and, under the Stafford Act, the federal government had the authority needed to provide that aid.

http://www2.dccc.org/docs/conyersgaokatrina.pdf

My concern here with the Federal government's response is that, as citizens, it is our duty to hold our government accountable. I am not a citizen of Louisiana or Mississippi or a resident of NO - I am sure that the people in those states will do what they need to to correct goverment at the state and municipal level. (At least in Chicago our politicians may be corrupt, but if they fail to get the streets plowed they are looking for a new job.)

But as a citizen of the US it is my duty to pay attention to the Federal Government and to hold it accountable when it fails.

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camus
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oh, this is a serious thread. Based on the title, I was expecting a discussion more on the lines of Ditka vs the Hurricane (and the hurricane's name is Ditka)
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Dagonee
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quote:
My concern here with the Federal government's response is that, as citizens, it is our duty to hold our government accountable. I am not a citizen of Louisiana or Mississippi or a resident of NO - I am sure that the people in those states will do what they need to to correct goverment at the state and municipal level. (At least in Chicago our politicians may be corrupt, but if they fail to get the streets plowed they are looking for a new job.)
But the analysis of where failures occurred at state and local levels is absolutely critical to determining where the failures occurred at the federal level. Any attempt to hold the federal government accountable for things must include a full analysis of the accountability of state and local governments to be at all accurate. And if it's not accurate, it's not useful.
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DarkKnight
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kmb, your link is about aid dollars, and it does state that the President did take the steps necessary to trigger the availability of Stafford Act emergency assistance...
(who the heck scanned that document in?? It looks terrible!)
If anything this puts the Governor of LA in a worse position because she was given the funds to do what she was supposed to do, and then she failed to act. She should have ordered the mandatory evacuation much sooner but she didn't. She should have made sure that her state followed it's evacuation plans, but didn't.
So the Federal Government, according to that link, did not fail at all. You seem to have an implication that it did?

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kmbboots
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Agreed. I'm just explaining why I'm more concerned with federal accountability. I think, for example, that Mayor Nagin is a doofus - but he isn't my mayor.

(Also, to be fair, he was operating under pretty difficult circumstances. Wasn't he working out of a hotel room or something?)

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kmbboots
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For clarification: My "agreed" was to Dagonee not to Darknight.
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DarkKnight
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Hmmm, I think Dagonee and I said pretty much the same thing earlier?
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kmbboots
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I could hardly be agreeing with your post as it had not appeared at the time I was posting.

Although much of the Stafford Act does deal with the details of "who pays what", it also clearly states (I admit the scanning of the document is not clear, although it is legible) that the Governor gave the federal goverment whatever authority they needed to do whatever was necessary and she did so in a timely manner.

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Enigmatic
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quote:
You really think your state is all that different? Do you honestly believe your Mayor or Governer is really any better prepared?
I know my state's not prepared to deal with a hurricane. But I live in Minnesota, so I don't mind that much.

I've been watching disaster movies for the last week or so (Day After Tomorrow, Volcano, Twister, etc) and I've decided that the blame here lies not with the president, governor, or mayor, but with the scientists. We keep hearing about how all these meteorologists and emergency planners had predictions about how devastating a hurricane hitting New Orleans would be, but not one of them was spunky enough to storm into an elected leader's office (be it at the local, state, or federal level) to make frantic, apocalyptic claims and get thrown out by security. None of them were bold enough steal public property to pursue their own unauthorized investigations or preparations. None of them had the courage to single-handedly lead a rag-tag band of evacuees to safety while simultaneously coordinating the larger relief effort.

What a bunch of slackers.

--Enigmatic

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DarkKnight
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Umm, no she didn't.
Link
quote:
August 27 - Governor Blanco requests that President Bush declare a major disaster for the State of Louisiana in a letter through FEMA Region VI Director Gary Jones [7]. In the 4-page letter, Blanco makes specific requests under the Stafford Act for aid (housing, counseling, unemployment, and Small business funding) as well as requesting "direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property" (by removing debris) and agrees to reduced liability but does not request federal troops to be deployed in the state until August 31. Per the constitution Federal troops are unable to be deployed to a state without this specific written request from the Governor [8].[9] Note, Blanco's letter was published on 27 August 2005 on her web site and Lexis Nexis but was dated 28 August 2005. Bush received the letter on Saturday and responded on that same day
quote:
Blanco's request and the subsequent declaration [15] do not cover the parishes expected to receive the most damage, like Jefferson Parish and New Orleans (Orleans Parish).
quote:
August 28 - 10AM CDT - Mandatory evacuation is ordered for New Orleans City by Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco[19] after having been requested the previous day by National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield and President George Bush. No public transportation is afforded the mostly poor citizens contrary to what the disaster plans called for.

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kmbboots
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According to the Stafford Act invoked by Governor Blanco on August 27 or 28 the government had the authority to:

quote:
§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

In any major disaster, the President may--

direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;


coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;

provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments for--
the performance of essential community services;
issuance of warnings of risks and hazards;
public health and safety information, including dissemination of such information;
provision of health and safety measures; and
management, control, and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety; and


assist State and local governments in the distribution of medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and emergency assistance.
(Pub. L. 93-288, title IV, § 402, as added Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 106(a)(3), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4696.)


http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm

Again, I'm not saying there isn't plenty of blame to go around. Do you understand my concern with the Federal response primarily? And can you honestly say that it was what is should be??

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DarkKnight
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quote:
Blanco makes specific requests under the Stafford Act for aid (housing, counseling, unemployment, and Small business funding) as well as requesting "direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property" (by removing debris) and agrees to reduced liability but does not request federal troops to be deployed in the state until August 31. Per the constitution Federal troops are unable to be deployed to a state without this specific written request from the Governor

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kmbboots
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DarkKnight:

Could you tell me what you are quoting? Is this all just that Wikpedia thing? What are their sources? Where in the Constitution?

And even Wikpedia says

quote:
In response to Governor Blanco's request, President Bush declares a Federal state of emergency in Louisiana under the authority of the Stafford Act [12]. The emergency declaration provides for federal assistance and funding [13] and assigns to FEMA, by law, the responsibility for coordinating relief efforts [14].
And as I have already said, enough blame to go around. Now, can you answer my questions?
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Prankster
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Why am I focusing on Bush? Because Mr. Card did in his essay. To which this thread started as a response. That's why.

And because no one is trying to deflect criticism from Nagin and Blanco. Everyone admits that they screwed up, it's simply a matter of degree. But with Bush we're expected to believe that there was nothing he could do, which supposedly justifies the fact that he remained on vacation. Honestly, if he had made even the APPEARANCE of caring about the situation before it looked like it was going to affect his poll numbers, I doubt he'd be facing anywhere near the current level of flak.

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Will B
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When he made the appearance of caring about the situation regarding Florida hurricanes, the NY Times said he was shamelessly pandering to Florida voters. Admittedly, that's not the same level of flak he's getting now, for calling out the National Guard 2 days before the hurricane hit.
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TL
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So President Bush says to himself: If I can't please the NY Times, what's the effing point?
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Kwea
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Those of the Guard left stateside, that is...


There was a breakdown in many levels....the only up side, if there is one, is that we now KNOW we aren't ready, and can work on it.

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