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Author Topic: Spoiler-loaded Serenity reviews
sarcasticmuppet
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Which question was that?

Nevermind, I missed it before, and wondered the same thing. There were hundreds of Reaver ships hanging out outside Miranda, and they weren't engaged in infighting? Yeah, that was weird.

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El JT de Spang
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Chris (and others),

Even if Simon hadn't seen River's ninja climbing move, the other doc still told him about her physical augmentation and all that jazz. So that didn't bother me.

quote:
Missed one quibble about the ending, where the Operative hits Mal's nerve cluster but Mal shakes it off. How deus ex machina was that? No previous mention of such a thing. I felt cheated. Not much, because Mal was so cool afterwards, but still. Could have been skipped, or there could have been mention in Mal's service record (which the Operative read) about it, something so we didn't think Joss pulled this one out of his nethers.
Mal said right when he snapped out of that to the Operative that that nerve cluster had been removed with some scar tissue from an old battle wound. So that was covered, I thought.

As for Zoe & Wash's relationship, didn't Mal say something early on along the lines of, "Go check on your husband"? Or did I dream that?

I loved that Wash died and the Operative lived. I had a visceral reaction watching the last act of the movie, like a punch in the stomach. I thought it was unbelievable. I'm spending my afternoon calling everyone I know and saying "Get thee to a theatre!"

By the end, when Zoe said, "Do you honestly think any of us are gonna survive this?" I was starting to worry.

Jeez, if there is a sequel (knock on wood) there'll be no one left. It'll be like the Supremes, no original members but the show goes on.
Real life is messy, and good people die for no reason. It's not all rainbows and butterflies. I loved that about this movie.

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Teshi
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quote:
Real life is messy, and good people die for no reason. It's not all rainbows and butterflies. I loved that about this movie.
I hated it. And loved it. I suppose that's the best reaction possible.
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Lime
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I saw the movie on Saturday, and I've been trying to digest it. I need to see it again, probably more than once.

My largest gripe is the escalation of tension between Mal and Simon between Objects in Space and the movie - and Mal forgetting that he'd already made the decision to consider them part of the crew. Or maybe he renegged (sp?).

I was quite upset about this through the first 1/2 of the movie, and eventually decided that Mal was just generally angrier than normal because Inara was gone. But in retrospect, it's ok. It fits. The crew and passengers on Serenity were family, but family never has a completely peaceful and happy co-existence.

And Chris - you're right. It's about time that Simon finally laid into Mal.


Wash. I can't really say anything about Wash's passing without feeling crushed and angry at how sudden and merciless his death was. But then - and this is probably what Joss is getting - life (and death) is just like that sometimes. Heroes shouldn't necessarily get any special consideration. That and I spent the rest of the movie not sure exactly what was going to happen. I feared for everybody, and that was a delicious experience.

I would have liked more reaction from Zoe. She was on - in combat mode, reacting now and feeling later. I still would have liked to see her crack, just a little bit, while she was fighting.


I miss the lost opportunity to find out more about Book. Maybe we'll have posthumous exploration of who he was. Maybe we won't.

Anyway, at the top of my wishlist for the next movie is seeing how Zoe changes now that Wash is gone. I really want to see some detailed character work from Gina Torres in the next movie, and I really want to see Joss behind it 100%, dialogue and scene-wise. Firefly was very much about how all nine of those people interacted and now there's a pair of holes in the family that need to be dealt with, and not just by their significant others.


Man, I need to see that again.

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lem
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quote:
My largest gripe is the escalation of tension between Mal and Simon between Objects in Space and the movie - and Mal forgetting that he'd already made the decision to consider them part of the crew. Or maybe he renegged (sp?).
Everyone keeps mentioning this, and I just DON'T see it. Mal did not kick the doctor off the boat. The doctor volunteered to leave. After being hit in the face, something Mal would not adjust to well in his leadership position, and the doctor emotional reaction to leave, I thought it was in character for Mal to let him go.

Once he emotionally detached, Mal was in his dark character mood.

But he didn't completely detach. He carried River back on the ship like a loving father--knowing her risk to Serenity.

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Lime
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Well, I saw it manifesting as Mal just being angry and abrasive with people where there was very little or no anger/friction in the series (and certainly not to that extent).

It felt like Joss had rewound Mal's character to the beginning of the series and was replaying that particular bit of development over again, for the sake of the people who were coming to the 'verse for the first time.


Of course, once Simon fed Mal a fist, it's perfectly within his character to let Simon go. But there was more friction between the two from the get go than what I saw existing during the last few TV episodes. But if there was an event that reignited that particular quarrel, then we didn't see it.


(Edited for clarity)

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lem
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quote:
But there was more friction between the two from the get go than what I saw existing during the last few TV episodes. But if there was an event that reignited that particular quarrel, then we didn't see it.
I thought the first time we saw the two of them together, it was over a fairly significant event. Mal was going to use River for the first time on a mission--a bank robbery no less!

When Simon approached Mal for the first time, Mal could not even tell if Simon was angry. He was good natured...until Simon made demands.

Mal explained his position and gave his warning. Simon was within character trying to protect his sister. It started ugly and escalated, but Mal did take them back.

I would of liked to see them back at their old jabs once River and Simon returned, but for the pace of the movie, I can understand why the didn't focus on that.


I still don't think there was a difference between their relationship in Objects in Space and Serenity--except for Simon assaulting Mal ('bout time!).

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Lime
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Simon's already trusted Mal with River's life, multiple times. Not always willingly, so I concede the point for the moment. It still sours me that Mal "forgot" about them being part of his crew. I didn't get the impression that he was the sort of person to withdraw that kind of distinction.

I need to see the movie again. Details have slipped away already.

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Narnia
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My biggest gripe with the darker Mal was how he treated Kaylee. "If this ship crashes, you crashed her." Come on, he would NEVER have said that in the series, even if he was a little more light-hearted back then. And then when he said he'd shoot any of them if they crossed him, and the "Now get to work!" that he growled at them...it just didn't fit. I understand he was upset by Book's death at that point and really pissed off at the operative, but Mal loves his crew. I missed seeing small evidences of that (until the end of the movie I suppose.)
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Narnia
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quote:
Simon's already trusted Mal with River's life, multiple times. Not always willingly, so I concede the point for the moment. It still sours me that Mal "forgot" about them being part of his crew. I didn't get the impression that he was the sort of person to withdraw that kind of distinction.

I felt the same way Lime. I guess we were supposed to forget about them being part of the crew just as we were supposed to forget about Simon NOT rescuing River like that. (I didn't have trouble forgetting about the latter, but it was hard for me to see the change in Mal. I'm ok with it, but I can see what everyone is saying.)
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Lime
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quote:
My biggest gripe with the darker Mal was how he treated Kaylee. "If this ship crashes, you crashed her."
That's the quote I was looking for. Mal never spoke that harshly to Kaylee, ever, even under the severest stress.

Also:

quote:
And then when he said he'd shoot any of them if they crossed him, and the "Now get to work!" that he growled at them...it just didn't fit.
I was going to use this as another example, but they were in a bad place and they had to get moving quickly. The Alliance could have been coming back around. Though I'd have thought Mal would have pointed that out and let that be motivation enough.
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Lyrhawn
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He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.

He apologized later, but he tends to break all the rules when he wants something done.

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JemmyGrove
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quote:
And I stand with Chris and Narnia -- one-tenth of one percent, which out of an initial population of 30 million would make 30,000 reavers. And I have a few questions about them too. If they are as mindless and savage as they are depicted in the movie, why don't they eat each other? Why would a being with that ultra-enhanced aggression be intolerant of all other beings except those which are equally aggressive? It seems to me the most likely scenario would be that the reavers all kill each other off long before they come to develop a 'society' or a 'culture.' I have a vague memory of reading an OSC article where he talked about a sort of society survival trait -- that for a society to survive, its members must be willing to subvert their own personal needs beneath those of the society (at least to some extent). This would imply restraining personal impulses (like the impulse to kill and eat someone) and I have a difficult time imagining the reavers doing that. I think the organization necessary to build, crew, and maintain a starship would also necessitate a willingness to concede personal impulses and wants in favor of some purpose larger then that of the individual, and again this to me seems inconsistent with reaver behavior. Anyone have any ideas?
Forgive me if I'm belaboring the point, but I would love to hear what what some of you think about the reavers.
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Lime
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quote:
He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.
Oh. Yes, that's right. Okay. Now I really need to see the movie again. And the DVDs, apparently.
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Shigosei
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JemmyGrove, I too wondered why the Reavers didn't seem to attack each other. It seems that there is some sort of group identity among them, or maybe they are afraid to attack each other, and only attack normal people because that's safer.

I also don't think the Reavers are mindless, given that they can run those ships just fine. I think they are simply extremely violent and aggressive. Maybe they're a little more rational most of the time and only become berzerkers when they're actually on a raid?

Can you imagine Reavers playing chess, or reading books, or hanging out with friends when they're not out brutally murdering people? Nope, I can't either.

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kojabu
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They could have a personal vendetta against normal humans simply because they weren't affected in the same way. I mean, if I were given some sort of funky chemical that made me go balistic, I'd probably go after the people who did it to me, not the people who have also become like me.
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JemmyGrove
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There must be more to them than meets the eye.

Hey, wait, I think I've figured it out . . .

They're Transformers!!!

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kojabu
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I have a question about the beginning of the movie when River was still being experimented on. Did any of the guys in there have blue hands? I tried to see if any of them did, but I didn't see any.

If they didn't, then where did the blue hands guys come from and why are their hands blue?

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JemmyGrove
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quote:
Originally posted by Shigosei:
or maybe they are afraid to attack each other, and only attack normal people because that's safer.

I don't buy "safety" as a plausable motivation for how they direct their attacks. Most of the evidence from the show (and the movie) suggests a near complete lack of consideration for their personal safety.

Of course there's Bushwacked, which suggests that they have at least an instinct for self-preservation, although that may be a special case because he didn't become a reaver by the same means the others did.

I agree with you that there's something about them that we don't yet know. I would love to see some exploration on the show as to what holds the reavers together as a group and how any semblance of a social organization could exist under those circumstances.

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Olivet
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heh. No, I think not attacking other reavers is a result of their percieved strength. This is not a product of higher functioning mental capacity. It's very basic.

There was a kid in my son's preschool class that was a bully. He was the same age/size as the kids in his class, more or less. The school's strategy? Put him in a class with kids mostly bigger than him. Bullying stopped. This was the 'toddler class' so they were all under two years old. Unusual aggressiveness WILL be focussed, generally, on the easier targets.

Which may be why the reavers do their ships that way on the outside, as a show of strength. It may also account for why the reavers did eventually attack Serenity - they didn't recognize it, maybe, or sussed that their 'show of strength' was lacking or unconvincing.

Just a guess. [Smile]

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CaySedai
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I haven't seen the movie yet (yeah, I know, I shouldn't be in this thread), but I have a suggestion about the reavers. Going back to "Bushwhacked" - the survivor of the colony ship spoke about the people being cattle. He identified with the reavers.

The reavers are like wolves - they hunt cattle. They would probably leave other reavers alone as long as they can get their prey. If the other reavers interfere with that, then there's more likely to be a reaver-against-reaver battle.

Just my guess.

Okay, I'll step out and (probably) not post again in this thread until I've actually seen the movie. (It's finances holding me back - I'm actually hoping to see it Thursday.)

(And I'll still be reading this thread - can't help myself.)

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JemmyGrove
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Thanks Olivet. The question isn't entirely settled for me, but your explanation makes sense.

As does the wolf comparison, CaySedai.

Makes me want to go see the movie again to make some careful observations -- gee, as if we were studying actual beings with an actual culture and had some actual hope of coming to an actual understanding of the inner workings of their society. [Roll Eyes] (Is it possible to do an anthropological study within a work of fiction?)

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kojabu
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Yes, Jemmy, I think it is. But we need to know more than we do, and that's not possible in this case - at least, not yet. *crosses fingers*
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Beren One Hand
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There are several college courses dedicated to studying BtVS. So an anthropological study of Firefly ain't that farfetched. I support any excuse you can come up with to rewatch the movie. [Big Grin]
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kojabu
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Haha, are there really Beren? We had one here based on Star Trek but I don't know if they still offer it. .
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blacwolve
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POSSIBLE FURTHER SPOILERS!!!


Ok, don't know if this really counts as a spoiler. But I read an interview with Joss stating that both Wash and Book will be in sequels, but he won't say how or in what way.

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kojabu
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What? Flashbacks, maybe.
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lem
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quote:
If they are as mindless and savage as they are depicted in the movie, why don't they eat each other?
I never thought of Reavers as mindless and savage...well, savage, yes, but not mindless.

When people talk about them being mindless, they are not talking about their mental function, but their motivation in getting off on pain and violence.

They can drive ships. They are methodical in how they hunt. They are very predatory. They are smart and organized.

I remember reading Piers Anthony book that had a Berserker. Once the Berserker tasted blood he went into a killing frenzy. He would bite his tongue before a battle and just wail on people—cut them into many pieces.

I think the Reavers are like that. Also, I bet there is a hierarchy of respect built on violence.

I repeat. It is my take that their motivation is mindless, but I suspect they are quite smart and work as a group.

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kojabu
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I agree with you lem, that they are smart. I still think that they may have wanted to seek some sort of vengenace on those who didn't become like them and sought solidarity with those who did.
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Lyrhawn
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Possible Prequel?

There could be several spin off movies made from this. Though I think spin offs would function better as a television show mini-series.

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Beren One Hand
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kojabu, some folks take their BtVS pretty seriously. [Smile]
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Chris Bridges
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Simon seing River go ninja was fully in line with the events of the movie, but directly contradicted his actions and demeanor in the series. If he had had a safe word all along, why didn't he use it when River slashed Jayne? Or when she was holding a fully loaded gun in "Objects in Space"? I can live with it, I just think it was unnecessary. One of several out-of-nowhere elements introduced, I think, to quickly demonstrate Mal's character. He reacts quickly and he takes care of his own even when they're a danger to him. Also, without the revelation of Simon's lying and endangerment of the crew, tempers wouldn't have flared highly enough for the movie's necessary tensions.

The Simon from the show could not have experienced what the Simon in the movie did. The Simon in the show had no clue what exactly had been done, that his sister had the skills she had (although he probably suspected pretty quickly, at least the mental ones) and he definitely did not suspect that his sister had been trained for combat. He scoffed when it was brought up, and it was demonstrated time and again that he simply isn't a good liar.

I'm starting to treat them as separate things, the show and the movie. Which isn't a bad thing, just a bit jarring.

I like the Reavers-as-wolves comparison. They take care of their pack and attack outsiders.

Mal said right when he snapped out of that to the Operative that that nerve cluster had been removed with some scar tissue from an old battle wound. So that was covered, I thought.

Covered, but (to me) annoying, like watching kids play soldiers.

Operative: Ha! Got you in the nerve cluster!
Mal: Ha! Had mine moved! There, I've dislocated both your arms!
Operative: Doesn't matter, I can pop 'em back in anytime I want! Ha! Shot off your leg!
Mal: But I have magical leg-growing abilities I picked up in the war!

It wasn't... satisfying, I guess. More like the writer wrote himself into a corner and had to get cheesy to get out of it, and I know Joss is better than that.

ALthough I saw it again Sunday, and Zoe's relationship with Wash was much clearer to me this time. I do think there should have been more reaction from some of the others when they found out about him, though. Shock is one thing, but the audience who doesn't know the show needs to see what a blow this is. I would have expected tears from Kaylee and possibly Inara.

Again, please note that usually when I complain about movies it's a major plot problem. Here I'm quibbling, so you know it mist be a good movie.

I'll go again next weekend and see if it keeps getting better [Smile]

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solero
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aw man i have yet to see.!!!
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Beren One Hand
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quote:
Operative: Ha! Got you in the nerve cluster!
Mal: Ha! Had mine moved! There, I've dislocated both your arms!
Operative: Doesn't matter, I can pop 'em back in anytime I want! Ha! Shot off your leg!
Mal: But I have magical leg-growing abilities I picked up in the war!

Whedon did something similar with the final battle between Angel and the rep of the Senior Partners (played by Adam Baldwin).

At least in Angel's case, the "surprise" was in tune with Angel's nature, so the solution had a sense of poetic justice.

In Mal's case it felt more like a weird cop out.

*Novelization Spoilers*

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I like the novel's take on the nerve cluster scene. Earlier in the story, the Operative studied Mal's medical records and, if he were careful, he should have recognized that Mal's nerve cluster may have been removed by a particular surgery.

I loved it when the Operative admonished himself for not putting two and two together. Sin of pride anyone? [Smile]

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El JT de Spang
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Just talked to my best friend from home. He loves movies as much as me, if not more, and just went yesterday to see Flightplan. Arghhh! He hasn't even heard of Serenity. But we like the same type of stuff, and a recommendation from me is reason enough for him to go see it, and vice versa.

It was kinda funny though -

Me: Have you heard about the movie "Serenity"?
Him: No, who's in it?
Me: Nobody. Nobody you've ever heard of.
Him: Oh. What's so good about it?
Me: It's kinda a space movie, chases and explosions and stuff. But not.
Him: Sounds regular.
Me: Man, it's funny and quirky and weird, and you'd like it. Go see it tomorrow. Then go back this weekend. It's based off of a cancelled TV show by the guy who created Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Him: Alright, I'm looking at the showtimes for tomorrow, I'm gonna go when I get off of work.
Me: Cool. Call me after and let me know what you think.

He's a pop-culture junkie (who has inexplicably never heard of Whedon) with a ton of connections. I've started a strong word of mouth campaign in Southern Louisiana.

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Beren One Hand
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Way to spread the word. [Smile]

It may also help to mention that Whedon has contributed to the scripts of Toy Story, Speed, and Titan A.E.

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Leonide
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Clarification (because it's been brought up a lot on this thread with no one knowing exactly what was said)

In regards to movie audiences knowing about Wash/Zoe's relationship...

Mal asks Zoe if her husband is going to get the ship off the ground. She responds in the positive. I don't remember the exact wording, but the mention of their relationship is pretty clear.

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Narnia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lime:
quote:
He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.
Oh. Yes, that's right. Okay. Now I really need to see the movie again. And the DVDs, apparently.
But everything 'harsh' he said to her in the series was with an undertone of "You're sweet and I love you so bust your butt and get moving because I can't do it without you!" Go watch Out of Gas again and I'm sure you won't be able to describe his treatment of her as 'harsh.' In any case, it can't possibly be compared to "If this ship crashes, you crashed her." Especially when we all know that HE knows how much she loves Serenity. It's a far cry from a kiss on the head and "You're still the best mechanic floatin'" from Our Mrs. Reynolds.

That's another thing that bugged me (while I'm nitpicking.) The non-Firefly loving audience saw nothing in the movie to show them that Kaylee is that 'best mechanic floating' or that Simon is an amazing Dr. I know we couldn't cram it in a 2 hour movie, but Kaylee ends up looking rather useless in the movie because we don't see her do anything nifty. You know?

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Shmuel
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quote:
In any case, it can't possibly be compared to "If this ship crashes, you crashed her."
See, I didn't hear that as being harsh. I took it as being flippantly humorous.
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Theaca
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Yeah, I didn't think he sounded mean about it at all.
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Narnia
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Yeah, he never sounded like he was being funny, but I suppose that could have been the case. In fact, the first time I saw it and Mal turned around to see Simon facing him, I thought Simon was going to get angry at him for talking to Kaylee like he did...but that's probably just my overdeveloped need for chivalry. [Big Grin]
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Astaril
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quote:
I read an interview with Joss stating that both Wash and Book will be in sequels, but he won't say how or in what way.
See, I also remember reading something a long time ago saying that everyone but Mal had already agreed to do the sequels. That's what confused me so much when Wash died, as I mentioned in my earlier review. Flashbacks make sense for Book, because his story is still unknown, but they don't work so well for Wash, unless they add something new to his story we don't know about.
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Shmuel
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quote:
Flashbacks make sense for Book, because his story is still unknown, but they don't work so well for Wash, unless they add something new to his story we don't know about.
I've been assuming -- based on nothing outside my own imagination -- that Zoe's character development is likely to be central to the second film. That'd allow plenty of room for Wash flashbacks (or video footage, ala Inara's packing), perhaps finally showing us how the two paired up in the first place.
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Troubadour
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In watching the film it felt to me as if a lot of hard yards had been travelled by the crew since we left them at the end of the series. Mal feels the loss of Inara and is less charming without her around, he's soul-bruised and it isn't pretty.

Simon has become harder, more accustomed to his life on the run. You get the feeling of escalating tensions between him and Mal.

I really had no problem with anything in the movie. I actually *liked* the nerve-cluster bit, I was on the edge of my seat thinking Mal would fall on the sword - it's a nice bit of business as it recalls the audience to the Operative's killing method and builds a bit of tension. Yeah, it's a deus ex, but what isn't?

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katharina
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I agree with Troubadour. I didn't think the movie started where the series ended, but a good six months later, after some heartbreak for Mal. Inara left - I'm not surprised that he took it out on Kaylee.
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Chris Bridges
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The comics that fill in the 6 months between the movie and show, and the extra stuff in the novelization all point to two things. They finally sold the Lassiter and got the money for the new mule and some new fixings (which explains the new clothes and extra stuff on the ship), and they went through some very hard times after that.
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Narnia
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Ah, that makes sense. Dang it all, now I just want to go see it again. How many times have you guys seen it so far? I'm at 3. [Smile] I'm (unrealistically) planning to see it at least once a week until it goes away.
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blacwolve
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I'm at two and have plans to see it twice next weekend.
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Beren One Hand
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
I'm at two and have plans to see it twice next weekend.

Great, that gives you two chances to enter the poster contest. [Smile]

quote:
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Narnia
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Nice! Maybe I'll see it twice. [Big Grin]
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