posted
I'm not sure if you guys all know Jack Thompson - he's the ravenous lawyer who's out to eliminate all video game violence in our time.
Well, there's lately been a bit of a tussle between him and the guys at Penny Arcade.
Note: There is a bit of profanity in the description of events, and in the webcomic posted for that day. Sensitive ears be forewarned.
The news post by Tycho has many links you can use to jump to further info on the situation.
It was then followed up by this post (the second comment down, and continuing down the page) which has more links that show the next step in this situation.
Personally, I think the guy's crazy, but you can decide for yourself.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well the fact that someone made a mod for GTA using his proposal and then he said they didn't get his sarcasm in regards to the proposal or whatever just proves he's crazy.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: You’re all asking me for Jack’s Email and or phone number and I respect that. The problem is that I can’t give that info out. The fact is that Jack had time to call me after I sent him a sarcastic email. I have no doubt in my mind that he would try and pull some legal bullshit if I post his phone number.
posted
I've been following this story, and was actually thinking about posting it too. Reading Jack's "modest proposal" which he is now claiming was satire, should be enough to prove he's a pretty sick guy.
My favorite bit is that after he claimed the whole proposal wasn't serious, basically admitting that there was no way he was ever going to actually donate the 10 grand to charity, Penny Arcade went ahead and donated 10 grand in Jack Thompson's name. Really goes to show the character of each side, I think.
posted
I love Penny Arcade! I hope Thompson doesn't come after them more viciously after this whole debacle.
Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
The hearing was supposed to begin today, but it's been delayed pending the resolution of Thompson's court challenge to the proceedings.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I would declare a national video game-related holiday if he were to be permanently disbarred. Not that I expect it will actually happen. Is there anything he can do to draw out a ruling indefinitely, or a way to settle the whole thing? The cynic in me says there are multiple legal loopholes in this.
quote:John B. Thompson, Attorney at Law 1172 South Dixie Hwy., Suite 111 Coral Gables, Florida 33146
Heck, this guy is less than ten minutes away from me! There's got to be at least three Army surplus stores between me and him! Let's go, guys! Who's drivin'?
As for the game he's suggesting... heck, I'd play it!
JT's a loon. I've had my fair dose of him in the past, and have discussed him thorougly with several game developers I know (employees of Id, Valve and Raven). Friend of mine even created a 3D model of his image for use in Half-Life.
*EDIT* Didn't notice original post was TWO YEARS old.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Supreme Court of Florida sanctioned Jack Thompson yesterday.
quote:Accordingly, in order to preserve the right of access for all litigants and promote the interests of justice, the Clerk of this Court is hereby instructed to reject for filing any future pleadings, petitions, motions, documents, or other filings submitted by John Bruce Thompson, unless signed by a member in good standing of The Florida Bar other than himself.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: The Supreme Court of Florida sanctioned Jack Thompson yesterday.
"...after submitting inappropriate and pornographic materials to this Court..."
He's none too bright, is he?
Boy, that is an entertaining read, especially the "picture book" he submitted. This guy *IS* a loon.
I never knew what a "sanction" actually meant. Does this basically mean that the courts can effectively ignore anything he says?
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:One of Thompson’s recent filings contains what Thompson refers to as a “children’s picture book for adults” that rehashes his previous arguments in illustrated form which he states was necessary due to “the Court’s inability to comprehend” his arguments. Between the text of the motion, Thompson pasted images depicting swastikas, kangaroos in court, a reproduced dollar bill, cartoon squirrels, Paul Simon, Paul Newman, Ray Charles, a handprint with the word "SLAP!" written under it, Bar Governor Benedict P. Kuehne, a baby, Ed Bradley, Jack Nicholson, Justice Clarence Thomas, Julius Caesar,monkeys, and a house of cards, and the motion concludes with a photograph of the cover of Thompson’s book, Out of Harm's Way.
I think that's all I need to say.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: JT (Thompson): …You entered an order, though, saying that I couldn’t communicate with you any further.
MOORE (Alabama Judge he's cross-examining): Directly to me or through my fax machine…
JT: Okay, and what was the annoyance that you had with that?
MOORE: Just fax after fax after fax after fax after fax after fax.
JT: Do you ever get communications by fax from other lawyers?
MOORE: Occasionally…
JT: What’s the cut-off on how many faxes?
MOORE: Oh, I don’t know. You reached it, whatever it is.
JT: Anybody else ever reach it?
MOORE: No… Not close… You ruined my fax machine.
JT: I ruined your fax machine?
MOORE: It quit.
JT: Did it.
MOORE: Yes.
[cut section--Morbo]
(After a time, the discussion wanders back to… the fax machine)
MOORE: …The problem is you were sending just bundles of [documents]… these long speeches and letters to other people that I had no idea what the letters were about… about Katrina money and these lawyers down here in Miami and all this…
JT: And I broke your fax.
MOORE: Yes.
TUMA: Objection.
MOORE: My secretary said be sure and tell you that.
JT: I’ll buy you one.
MOORE: I don’t want you to buy me one. I bought one…
quote:Is that kind of filing public record? If so, how can I get a copy?
You'd have to go to the electronic filing system for Florida. In the federal system, this costs money for everything but court opinions and orders. Not sure about Florida.
Here's the one where he filed so-called gay porn with the court. There were pictures attached.
quote:I never knew what a "sanction" actually meant. Does this basically mean that the courts can effectively ignore anything he says?
It means if he files anything with the court without the signature of another attorney, he can be fined or sent to jail for contempt. Moreover, such a filing could be stricken without consideration for violation of court rules.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
As if that wasn't enough, he's also facing disbarment. I'll miss reading about his antics.
!!! I don't know what part of the brain deals with conspiracy theories, but mine just kicked on! What if he's doing all of this on purpose and in the end, when he's certifiably insane, he's going to claim that Video Games did it and sue the hell out of them?!?
Oh, and this is a bit old, and the internal pictures don't work anymore, but I think it's funny enough to earn a place in this thread: Link!Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
jack thompson's the perfect example of extremist ineptitude. however, game developers can't absolve themselves of what they put into video games. everyone has to be responsible for the work they produce, no matter what anyone else's opinion may be. Rockstar's just a company that's interested in pushing the envelope of public tollerance, just like NYPD Blue was back in the day. And Rockstar has never publicly apologized for including "hot coffee" on the disc, nevermind that they used lame code to try to hide it. anyway, everything affects everything. i wonder if the romans weren't affected by the bloody butchering of innocent people in their arenas? it's not that big a stretch to compare the two...
Posts: 42 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just the fact that one is an electrical simulation and the other one used you know, real people.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I knew before I clicked on anything that Blayne was linking to Yahtzee. Blayne's hero worship runs vast and deep.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:however, game developers can't absolve themselves of what they put into video games. everyone has to be responsible for the work they produce, no matter what anyone else's opinion may be.
Were this actually true, the point would be moot anyway, since the entire question of whether video games cause violence removes responsibility from the hands of those actually committing violence. By this logic, GTA is not the problem since the game itself has never shot, stabbed, beaten, kicked, bit, raped, run over, or tortured anyone.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shawshank: Just a warning on Blayne's link- contains quite a bit of swearing.
Well *that's* an understatement... Hell, watching that review give me the urge to go out and kill something.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I agree with Cons, though not in the legal sense you're using, Jux. The person who advocates violence probably shouldn't be legally responsible for the guy who does go out and commit the murder. However, I would call him morally responsible.
Most people don't just go out and act. They think about it first. They find images of what they want to do. They get comfortable with the idea. Then they act. I think anyone who produces an art for others to enjoy should be cognisant of its potential impact. Yes, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to depict violence, but I think entertainers have to be aware of the impact they can have.
Most of the reponsibility should be on the individual since they have the ultimate choice of what they'll surround themself with. I just don't think that gets people who make GTA style games off the moral hook as it were.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wonder what would happen if you plopped a baby in front of a bloody video game or any other bloody media, and see how they develop, gradually exposed to more viceral content as they grow up... there's always more than one responsible party in this issue. I was merely pointing out that developers can't excuse themselves of what they make if it has a valid impact on someone else, whether that person's sane or insane enough to tell the difference. What about those two boys who murdered their own mother EXACTLY after the fashion seen on Sepranos to the T? True, those boys are TOTALLY responsible for choosing to act in such a fashion, but does that excuse the show from responsibility totally?
Posts: 42 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Assigning additional responsibility for a particular bad outcome does not reduce the amount of responsibility another has for it.
Responsibility is not a zero sum game. [/QB]
I disagree. I'd elaborate, but I'm not really sure how to.
For the record though, I do think video game developers bear a moral/aesthetic responsibility for what they produce. I'm sure there's a line somewhere where they should be legally responsible (beyond labeling/warning, I mean) for the content they produce. No game, that I'm aware of, has reached that line.
quote:posted by Constipatron: What about those two boys who murdered their own mother EXACTLY after the fashion seen on Sepranos to the T? True, those boys are TOTALLY responsible for choosing to act in such a fashion, but does that excuse the show from responsibility totally
Yes, I think it does. Well, other factors too, but that's one of them. No one associated with the show has advocated that anyone should commit murder.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In order to win this argument, you have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that those people wouldn't have committed the act WITHOUT having seen it on whichever form of media (The burden of proof is on the people making the claim). Never mind HOW they did it. I can accept that they got the METHOD from whichever source, but the drive to carry it out is something different entirely. People have been killing other people long before said acts were depicted anywhere.
quote:I disagree. I'd elaborate, but I'm not really sure how to.
If person A hires person B to kill someone else, we don't partition their sentence between them. We hold them both fully responsible.
I'm not even saying here that video developers share any responsibility for any violence. I'm simply saying that IF they do, it doesn't reduce any responsibility of those who commit violence. It's a red-herring argument that obscures the actual issue.
Especially when it's stated as baldly and absolutely as you did.
The idea of zero-sum moral culpability is ultimately corrosive.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:If person A hires person B to kill someone else, we don't partition their sentence between them. We hold them both fully responsible.
This is a good counter-example. I'm trying to refine an opinion on this, and it's all kind of rough impressions right now, so I hope you'll bear with me.
quote:I'm not even saying here that video developers share any responsibility for any violence. I'm simply saying that IF they do, it doesn't reduce any responsibility of those who commit violence. It's a red-herring argument that obscures the actual issue.
I think you are right to point out that "video games don't kill people, people kill people" is a poor argument. I feel the same way about it when applied to guns, and never really realized it.
That said, I still disagree with you on assigning blame. This situation feels sufficiently different from your contracted killer example that I can't yet rule out different moral principles being in play.
I think part of the difference is that with video games, the ones actually committing the violence are often minors. Or at least, thats who video games are supposedly corrupting. I think my intuitions in this are supported by the blame ping-pong that often gets played with this issue: "the media is to blame", "parents need to pay attention to their kids!"
Anyway, I need to think about this more.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
OSC has depicted many violent deaths in his books. I hope nobody considers him morally or legally responsible for violence done by anyone who has read his work. It seems absurd to even suggest it.
What makes video games different than books in this regard?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:What makes video games different than books in this regard?
Again, I'm not saying that they are.
However, it seems pretty obvious that participatory depicted violence might have different effects than non-participatory. There's enough difference between them to think that one might have a different effect.
quote:That said, I still disagree with you on assigning blame. This situation feels sufficiently different from your contracted killer example that I can't yet rule out different moral principles being in play.
The only thing I've said about assigning blame is that the statement "Video game X contributed to violent act Y committed by person Z" does not necessarily mean that the person making the statement is assigning less blame to Z.
quote: I think my intuitions in this are supported by the blame ping-pong that often gets played with this issue: "the media is to blame", "parents need to pay attention to their kids!"
Certainly some people mean to lessen the blame on the one who commits violence. But it's not inherent to the argument.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
All Dag is saying can be seen in the following example.
Joe stole a purse. He got caught. He was found guilty and gets 5 years in jail.
Joe explains to everyone that the reason he stole the purse was because of a video game he played, "Sim-Purse Snatcher, Vegas Edition." That video game so glamorized the act of purse snatching that Joe felt compelled to go out and snatch someone's purse.
Needless to say, the experience was far less fun than the simulation.
After viewing the video game it is decided that the game is a threat to the community, that laws were broken, and that the company is at fault.
Any penalties the company, the developers, or the publishers must pay for their crime does not lessen the guilt or punishment Joe must face. They don't divide up the sentence--3 Years for the Publisher, 1 for the salesman who sold the game, and 1 for Joe.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
People are mixing responsibility with accountability. They're similar, but in the end, two different things.
If only we had some way to classify people by how much violence, sexuality, or other genres of fiction they could reasonably take in and still be likely to regard it AS fiction. I think we should call it something fancy like "Maturity". We could probably base it on age or something of that nature. From there, we just have to apply a certain "Maturity" level to whatever genre of fiction and label it corresponding to the age group that can handle it. Wait a minute, this sounds familiar...
Any way you cut it, the company that produces the fiction is NOT accountable. They have already taken every reasonable measure to keep it away from the people that would be most likely influenced by it. Any more restrictions on that level would take away still more of our Freedoms. I only grew aware of it recently, but this whole trading freedom for some trivial bit of security thing is starting to get to me.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I still think that violence has an impact, even if it's not measurable immediately after digesting the exposure. First time I saw "Smash TV" in the arcade so many years ago, I can remember actually feeling sick at my stomach. But, when I started playing it the nausia eventually went away. Now, is that because I lost the adolescent assumption that video games and life could be closely related, or is it because seeing pixelated gore more often desensitized me to a degree? I admit that I'm not going to strap a rocket-launcher on my arm and go blow people up for money and prizes, but it has an affect.
Posts: 42 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: OSC has depicted many violent deaths in his books. I hope nobody considers him morally or legally responsible for violence done by anyone who has read his work.
While I've only read a fraction of his catalog, the Card works I'm familiar with don't glorify violence. The only people who enjoy it are the antagonists. The good guys always regret what happened and experience grief or guilt at doing it.
Ender would be the prime example. He accidentally killed a kid in self defense and still felt awful about it when he talked about it later. Violence is sometimes necessary in Card's works, but it's never a source of entertainment.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
AvidReader: I appreciate that aspect, but I'm not sure how important it is.
My main point is that there have been violent books and stories for ages, and while there are people who try to ban one book or another, the books are generally considered much more protected than other media.
Lots of people disagree with video game violence, but I imagine that few people who attack video games would suggest that The Red Badge of Courage or Fahrenheit 451 are responsible for teen violence.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Ender would be the prime example. He accidentally killed a kid in self defense and still felt awful about it when he talked about it later.
Unless I am grossly misremembering, Ender eventually comes to realize that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he killed Stilson and Bonzo. Felt awful about it? Sure. Not an accident in either case, however.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Ender would be the prime example. He accidentally killed a kid in self defense and still felt awful about it when he talked about it later.
Unless I am grossly misremembering, Ender eventually comes to realize that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he killed Stilson and Bonzo. Felt awful about it? Sure. Not an accident in either case, however.
That's the way I remember it too. Ender has a dual nature - empathetic, but ruthless. It is, IMO, central to the tragedy of his young life.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's another though: If an Ender video game is made, is it possible that the game could be responsible for inciting someone to violence, where the book could not?
If it is the interactive nature of the media which changes the responsibility, then isn't it actually the person's level of interaction which changes? The story is still the same (to some degree), but the person is more active in the story.
If this is the case, then doesn't it fall to the person again anyway? They're the one delving more deeply into the story, so they hold the responsibility of their actions to do so, and the results of those actions.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:The pornography and violence that your son trafficks in is the kind of stuff that most mothers would be ashamed to see their son putting into the hands of other mothers' children, but, hey, your son Strauss has recently assured the world that he is "a Boy Scout, everybody knows that." I'd love to see the merit badges that Scout Troop handed out. Is there a Ted Bundy merit badge? If so, your loving son deserves one now. It should be red and green, for obvious reasons.
.../...
Your son, this very moment, is doing everything he possibly can to sell as many copies of GTA IV to teen boys in the United States, a country in which your son claims you raised him to be "a Boy Scout." More like the Hitler Youth, I would say.
Happy Mother's day, Mrs. Zelnick, which this year is May 11, two weeks after your son unleashes porn and violence upon other mothers' boys. I'm sure you're very proud.
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, don't it?
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
