posted
First, to avoid confusion, I'm going to have to clear something up. My name is Heni, I'm 16 and I started this Register name of Rusta-burger. I think it was just to ask OSC a question about IGMS. Then I got sick of trying to keep up with you guys and my friend Mitch, who I introduced to hatrack, decided to use this email since I'm not using it anymore. (except now, this is the last time). So you have 3 different people using this account apparently but after this that's going to stop. Glad I got that cleared up.
Too my point, because I'v been reading through OSCs and Mitchs threads, I realise you guys are very good at logicalising things. Well, I'd like your advice on my current dilemma, which is more important to me than anything else right now, though ths will probably be a mouthful so you have been warned.
Okay, so last year I read enders game, which lead me to wanting to read more, and eventually wanting to become a science fiction author when I grow up, and to hatrack, finding out OSC is a mormon, studying that, and then finally coming to the decision that I wanted to read the book of mormon (which I no have done).
I later found out the library had it but at this point I never thought of that. So I went to my friend (I'll keep his name disclosed but I'll cll him John to avoid confusion) and asked him if he had learnt to sing in church. He said yes! Hows me luck, eh? I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball (so I assumed he was american - which hes not, but lucky again) and because he could sing in such a way that only people who go to church here can sing. Now we live close and theres two very close churches near our houses.
At this point I still didnt know mormonism and the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints was the same thing so it wasn't as simple as just going and checking. So, yeah, he was a mormon and he introduced me to heaps more (this was like november) and i went to church with him a few times.
But then my family had a problem with it for some reason, and they still do. I missed out on the chance to be baptised and fell into a sort of depression over not goin to church anymore.
When i got over that I kept saying to John I meant to come to church again but couldnt bring my self to go through tht again. Then, for a reason that woud take for ever to explain, I'm positive I want to do it this month and get baptised. But... Johns done something really rude and I'm not speaking to him. i had wanted him to baptise me but he really didnt give an answer then soon after i got mad at him. But i hav another friend whose also able to baptise me and ive come to wanting him to do it instead and he convinced me not to worry about John being at church.
So now I'm deadset about ding it, which means going to church next saturday for a start, but i have two problems. I don't know how to suddenly bring this up to my family, and I don't know what to say to them. My older brother was the final straw last time and he's always the most convincing, so I was thinking I should talk to him before anyone else.
So, if youve just read all that, what do you suggest I do?
Posts: 75 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I think you should read the Communist Manifesto first. You've given the theists their chance, why not let the other team have a crack at it?
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What's a theist. And i should also point out that i realise i made a lot of mistakes in that, but it seems like too many, so ill just say i mean sunday instead of saturday in the second last paragraph. And what is it in communist manifesto thats so interesting?
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posted
You are really serious? A theist is someone who believes in gods. From greek 'theos'. Opposite of a-theist.
As for the Communist Manifesto, it's actually not very interesting at all, it was just the first example I could think up of a major atheist work. The point I was subtly trying to make is that you don't have to choose between your parents' religion and mormonism; there are lots of religions, plus atheism.
It's a pretty useless dichotomy, anyway : Like choosing between the Invisible Pink Unicorn (may Her hooves never be shod) and the Flying Spghetti Monster. At 16, you should be a bit too old for imaginary friends.
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posted
My parents aren't athiests! What a thing to assume. :S My mums actually a catholic and my dads a protestant. I've been to other churches is my life. I've been an athiest for a time. AND... I've even been a pastafarian. So
And don't diss the pastafarians! At least they believe in Something! It seems logical enough that, even if god isn't a flying spaghetti monster, he'd still be angry about a decline in Pirates. Who isn't!?
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posted
By the way, I had to stop being a pastafarian because I felt guilty about eati paghetti, which I had for dinner tonight matter-of-fact.
How can you at the same time compare the LDS church to imaginary friends and at the same time recommend I go check out other religions. I can see that you have no grounds for your beliefs beyon cynicism.
Posts: 75 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I didn't assume they were; I did say "your parents' religion". That usually exclusdes atheism. But however that may be, could you explain again why you want to get baptised? If you were a pastafarian (foul heretics that they are) then surely you realise just how silly this is? So are you just annoying your parents, or getting in good with your friend, or what?
By the way, how the devil does this follow?
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball
posted
My advice is to pray. As Heavenly Father to grant you guiedance on this issue. If you believe, the answer will come.
I am not able to be active. (See the May I Vent for details.) But I do watch the part of services that BYU has on tv online, along with other programs that keep me centered and make me feel connected.
Also the Church's website has an online set of scriptures and has the magazines online and the New Era is just for people your age.
quote:Originally posted by Rusta-burger: How can you at the same time compare the LDS church to imaginary friends and at the same time recommend I go check out other religions.
I intended that by becoming aware of other religions, you should realise that they all revolve around imaginary friends. But I can see that wasn't necessary. The question remains, what are you getting out of this?
By the way, I wonder if you are aware of the question-mark? On my keyboard you get it with Shift-/, which is down and to the right.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: By the way, how the devil does this follow?
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball
I have no idea. I guess I'm just more logical than you. You may be the king of men but your dealing with the burger king, mate.
I have prayed and got my answer. I really suggest you d this. I have felt an overwhelming feeling of the holy ghost every time I've been involved with the church. Why do you think I became depressed after I had to leave?
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posted
"But I do watch the part of services that BYU has on tv onlinedCould you give me the link for this please?
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posted
KoM, why do you feel you must spend your time sitting at a computer screen arguing with a 16 year old? I came here for advice, not an argument.
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I've been where you are now. I think the depression stems from the fact that when you are at church and involved you feel like you belong and like you're part of something that matters, and when you go home, you're an outsider, your different.
I want to tell you something a Missionary once told me: The Church is true, but people will not always be.
A person's religious beliefs are a perosnal thing and each of us should have the freedom to choose our own path.
Btw, I know sort of how the basketball assumption came to be. I used to go and watch Brigham Young University sports on Saturdays in the Cultural Hall of my old Ward. The Missionaries would play basketbakll during the commercial. There are members of the Church in nearly every sport.
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Rusta chck the post where I advised you to pray. The links are at the bottom of the post that I edited.
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quote:Originally posted by Rusta-burger: KoM, why do you feel you must spend your time sitting at a computer screen arguing with a 16 year old? I came here for advice, not an argument.
And I am indeed giving you advice, to wit, back out. Get some real friends instead, preferably ones that don;t require you to go through silly rituals.
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The manuals for the year are on the Church website too. They'll be changing in, I think January 2006.
I have a cd where I have all the magazines and manuals kept. Never know when you may need something for a talk. And on the BYU site, you can set the schedule to your time zone so you know when things are being aired. They post a schedule too.
I've been watching the program called Joseph. It's good.
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posted
KoM stop, NOW! You jump to too many conclusions. I'd rather you just not come into this topic. Please. I'm not saying any more in here, on on this rgistry, that's it. But I will still be reading, so do send advice please folks.
Posts: 75 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Rusta-burger, just ignore King of Men. He is one of the least pleasant people I have ever had the misfortune of "meeting," and he is a virulent and closed-minded atheist who can't accept that someone could be a believing Christian and a bright person. His opinions on religion are useless, and I know I would find Hatrack a much more pleasant place if he weren't here.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Rusta-burger: I am LDS and I'd like to help you with your situation, but I'm not sure that I understand your situation well enough to say anything, yet. You said that your family had a problem with the church. Can you explain that a little? I can't remember if it is church policy not to baptize people under 18 without their parents consent. But, it maybe. If they don't consent you may have to wait 2 years. I know that will seem like an eternity to you, but you'll make it.
You also said, "My older brother was the final straw last time and he's always the most convincing, so I was thinking I should talk to him before anyone else". Can you explain?
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posted
Umm ... King of Men isn't one. There are going to be loads of people just like him. I personally tend to take the viewpoint that he's just having fun provoking people, usually in an introspective way. But there are tons of people out there who will try to get you to doubt your beliefs, and a lot of times they will be enormously intelligent. So be prepared for it. And do keep a good supply of "Brothers and Sisters in the Gospel that are willing to advise you and listen" handy. umm ... yeah, so I know that didn't directly pertain to your situation, but if you are about to embark on a journey of faith, I just thoughht to arm you a bit. This coming from a 17 year old who vaguely knows how you feel. Good luck.
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posted
Rusta, I'm 18 and a member of the church. I'm so happy for you that you were able to find the gospel in your life. Believe me, I know it can be hard sometimes to remain faithful when everyone around you is telling you that you are wrong. But, I also know that you can make it through any difficult situation with the help of our Heavenly Father. Remember that He is always with you, and that He will never let you down if you just believe and pray with a sincere heart. Good luck with everything, and never be afraid to ask the missionaries or any member of the church for help.
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posted
I'm not lds. But I just wanted to say that I didn't get any feeling from your posts of WHY you want to be baptised, or that you really understand what you are committing to, in a baptism. Or why you want it right now. Do you truly believe in and have studied the beliefs of the church?
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quote:And do keep a good supply of "Brothers and Sisters in the Gospel that are willing to advise you and listen" handy. umm ... yeah, so I know that didn't directly pertain to your situation.
It pertains because at least here Rusta can come and know that there are people of like Faith that can give advice and be a listening ear when it is needed.
And so that there is no confusion, my mentioning Brothers and Sisters is because that is a common form of address among members, unless you are an Authority or a Missonary. (Although female Missionaries are still called Sister.)
I also know that KoM is not a member, if there was confusion there, I apologize.
Posts: 113 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
My recommendation would be to first decide what you think are good reasons to base you decision on, and which reasons are bad. Consider the following:
-Not joining a church because your family doesn't want you to -Joining a church because an author you admire belongs to it -Joining a church because you met a nice guy who belongs to it -Not joing a church because you no longer like that guy -Joing a church for whatever these reasons that would take for ever to explain are
Think about these and all the other reasons you might have for making your decision. They are all valid reasons, but if you think about them, you will probably conclude some are good reasons and some are bad reasons. Once you figure out which is which, take a look at only the reasons you consider to be good reasons, and then make your decision. Then you will not only have an idea of what you are doing, but WHY you should do it, and why that reason is a good one.
If you decide to join that church, tell your family in whatever way seems right to you. Since you should know what you are doing, why are you are doing it, and why that reason is a good one, you should be able to explain it to them. They might totally disagree, but at least they will know why you are doing what you are doing. If they give reasons why you SHOULDN'T do what you want, then think about their reasons and whether they really do trump your reasons. If their reasons are better than yours, listen to them. If your reasons are better than theirs, in your view, then tell them you have to do it anyway.
I'm sure you will make a good decision. If it turns out wrong, it is always possible to change. After all, Catholicism, Protestantism, and Mormonism all generally agree that you can be forgiven when errors are made.
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posted
I just want to add my support to what's been said before. Rusta, when I joined the church all my family were against it. My mother said she and my father had discussed it and they decided that I just turned off my brain. That was 4 years ago and my Dad is now dead but my Mom is much more reconciled to me being in the church. After the tsunami last year she even donated to the church Humanitarian Fund.
If you aren't yet 18, you can't be baptised without your parents consent, but you can continue going to church, reading scriptures and church magazines, praying, and receiving the companionship of the spirit, if your parents refuse to consent. Then when you turn 18 your baptism and confirmation will be all the sweeter, because you had to wait.
Please email me at annekateard AT bham DOT rr DOT com if you have any questions or if there's any way I can help, or you can message me on AIM at TheRopeOfAllah.
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Rusta, I would recommend that before you undertake the baptism that you at least read the Book of Mormon.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Read it and pray about what you have read. Let the Holy Ghost be your guide.
quote: And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:4-5)
posted
Okay, I'll post again but I've got a new emailas you can see. I'll just clear some things up:
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: -Not joining a church because your family doesn't want you to -Joining a church because an author you admire belongs to it -Joining a church because you met a nice guy who belongs to it -Not joing a church because you no longer like that guy -Joing a church for whatever these reasons that would take for ever to explain are
tres, i don't know if you meant these literally but among the first four at no point were reasons for me to join. And I have no reason not to join. As for the fifth one, I've sort of already explained that when i said about praying and everything, but I don't think non-mormons (I'of course, am the only exception to that rule <grin>) will understand this and mormons won't need me to say more because they already understand.
Theaca, I do understand what I'm commiting to and I want to be baptised so I can be a full member of the church. Simple as that. Why I want it right now is because I feel I'm ready, finally, and why wait? And regarding "Do you truly believe in and have studied the beliefs of the church?". Yep.
enochville, regarding "You said that your family had a problem with the church. Can you explain that a little?" That's just things like how if you get married my mums worried she'll miss my wedding, you know, the usual. I want her to sit down with the bishop at the nearby ward and actually talk to him but she won't. She's talked to a "sister" on the phone at one point though.
My brother was just a matter of I thought he was more open minded and he would've seen the pain I was in and taken my side. But he didn't and I was shocked. And he's very convincing, no to me, but to the rest of my family so they think if they've got his support (and more often than not they don't) they've got nothing to worry about. And with no family to support me I just gave up. Now I need to figure out how exactly to get their support.
Also, I was made a catholic by my mum until I was six when she quit because she didn't like one of their policies. I was six years old at the time so I don't get KoM's comment about me not having a "sense of self" because I apparently I "skip from church to church, desperately seeking validation?" I've never been a protestant, I thought an athiest was someone who believed in God but didnt belong to a church, and I was a pastafarian for a while because I think Pirates are cool and my mates and I were all into it. (We were kids who liked to think of God as a Flying Spaghetti Monster, so what?) Get a life King of Men.
I hope I've cleared up all that I am able to on the subject. Thank you so much for your support. I've decided to see about visiting my other friends (the one who I want to baptise me now) dad for a talk on the subject. I'm pretty sure he's one of the elders in the ward I want to go to. And my family will not know about this talk just yet, if at all.
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posted
Does the Book of Mormon have beliefs and rules written out? I'd imagine the Book of Mormon is a fascinating read, especially for a science fiction fan, but the actual rules and beliefs are written in the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd suggest looking at that as well.
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posted
I havn't actually read the D&C or Pearl of great Price. I mean, I've had glimpses but not like I've read and studied the BoM. I'll have to get around to that asap.
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I know it's bad, but I can't look at at Heni without thinking of heinie. I'm going to start thinking of the name as Henri, that might help me.
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posted
it's a native kiwi (new zealander) name. you can call me that if you want. i have a friend from china who lives in america and i call her by her french name so i'd be a bit of a hypocrit if i thought otherwise. by the way, sorry for the lack of capitals. i'm feeling lazy.
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quote:Does the Book of Mormon have beliefs and rules written out? I'd imagine the Book of Mormon is a fascinating read, especially for a science fiction fan, but the actual rules and beliefs are written in the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd suggest looking at that as well.
Actually, there are rules set forth in the Book of Mormon, same as in the Bible. But you're right, most of the important modern-day stuff is in the D&C. You can probably skip the PoGP for now, Heni, if you're not ready for it; not that it's not beautiful and profound, but it's not as essential to understanding the rules we are asked to live by.
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There are 2 types of conversion: social and doctrinal. Some people believe that doctrinal is the only conversion that matters but I don't believe so. Mainly because if Christ's teachings are true, we should be gathering together to strengthen ourselves.
So I believe both are important. And IMO both are fragile, in fact, social conversion may be more fragile. I have been offended so many times that if I relied on friends, I would have quit going to church a long time ago.
It is good that I still have people I can count on.
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posted
There was no prank. I don't know where you got that idea from. When I told you what i did in the first post here in VITM I seriously thought you could help me. And you did! I told you that thing with the basketball not because I thought it would make you laugh. I said it because I thought it was fate. Nothing I have said has been a lie (except when conan used my registry to do that stupid little prank) That was a prank!
I honestly can't believe the members of hatrack I have watched for over a month when OSC started posting, wouldn't be like this. How could you think what I told you here was part of a prank! Yopu can all go to hell!
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posted
I don't think it was a prank. I do consider it unfair that all the members of Hatrack are being lumped together as thinking that.
Shawn Bradley plays basketball and went on his Mission, so there is nothing wrong with basketball and being LDS.
Posts: 113 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Heni: There was no prank. I don't know where you got that idea from. When I told you what i did in the first post here in VITM I seriously thought you could help me. And you did! I told you that thing with the basketball not because I thought it would make you laugh. I said it because I thought it was fate. Nothing I have said has been a lie (except when conan used my registry to do that stupid little prank) That was a prank!
I honestly can't believe the members of hatrack I have watched for over a month when OSC started posting, wouldn't be like this. How could you think what I told you here was part of a prank! Yopu can all go to hell!
Well, first thing you should know is that telling us all to go to hell won't endear us to you. It's not generally seen as a way of making friends and influencing people. On the other hand, as far as I know, we don't have a username of Yopu, so perhaps it won't matter that you're telling Yopu to go to hell..
Second thing you should know is that there have, historically, been a lot of trolls and general trouble makers who post here with multiple screen names and, well, do all sorts of naughty stuff.
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball (so I assumed he was american - which hes not, but lucky again) and because he could sing in such a way that only people who go to church here can sing.
Well, that is all still a mystery to me. Basketball players are all lds and American, and only people who sing in church are lds? But if you knew he sang like someone who sang in church, why would you assume his was an lds singing voice when you'd obviously never been in an lds church before?
quote:then finally coming to the decision that I wanted to read the book of mormon (which I no have done).
And here you are clearly saying you have NOT read the BOM. Rather an unfortunate typo, there.
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quote:tres, i don't know if you meant these literally but among the first four at no point were reasons for me to join. And I have no reason not to join.
Are you sure? It sounds like these reasons are impacting your decision, given that your baptism plans have been altered both by your family's opinion and your friendship (or lack thereof) with this fellow.
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