NEWARK, N.J. -- Several Muslim football fans claim they were profiled and unfairly detained by stadium security personnel and the FBI at Giants Stadium during a game in September when they were seen praying, alarming other fans who considered their behavior suspicious.
Five fans attending the New York Giants-New Orleans Saints game at the Meadowlands on Sept. 19 were removed from their seats and questioned by security personnel after other fans saw them prostrating themselves on the ground as part of daily Muslim prayers, which must be performed five times each day, Sohail Mohammed, a lawyer for one of the men, said Tuesday.
We're sort of famous for it here in the U.S. - the internment of the japanese, automatic unease around groups of black people wearing baggy name-brand clothing & do rags, mistrust & degradation of priests / boy scout leaders by the secular / non participants, etc., etc., and now this.
posted
I'm trying to see this from both sides. I really, really want to say that this pisses me off, but I'm not sure. If that makes me racist or stereotypical, then so be it, but if I saw Muslims praying at a large, crowded event, I might be a little on edge as well (I don't know that I would call security, but it would make me nervous.) I do not, by any means, think all Muslims are terrorists, or even that MOST Muslims are terrorists - but given current events and the fact that most terrorists have been known to pray before blowing themselves and others up, and that the majority of said terrorists have been Muslims, and also that terrorists are likely to target crowded areas, I can understand why the other fans at the game reacted in the way they did. I'm kinda torn on this situation. I know that I believe racial profiling and stereotyping to be wrong, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't have felt the same way in that situation.
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quote: FBI agents were at the game that night because former President Bush was present to promote a fundraising effort he and former President Clinton had launched to help victims of Hurricane Katrina.
Well I can't blame the fans for being a little worried. I'd be suspicious too if I saw Muslims praying right before a game that President Bush was attending. Especially because I once heard that Muslims have to go through certain rituals before a suicide bomb (which may include praying). And I don't hate Muslims, but the fact that every time I've ever read about a Muslim man in a newspaper it's usually about how he was a suicide bomber or a terrorist. I apologize if my statement seems prejudiced, I'm sure I wouldn't feel this way if I ever knew any friendly Muslims in person.
Edit: I wasn't defending the way the security handled it, though.
Edit again: Yeah, what Avadaru said, only she explains it better.
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posted
I don't know how I would have felt. I might have been more nervous than if a large group of Christians were holding a prayer group, but I'd like to say that they aren't different. I don't like to see Muslims in America punished for the actions of Muslims across the world, but the fact is, that this is the world we live in. I don't like it, certainly no one likes it, but it can be construed as provocation.
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posted
Maybe I see this differently because at my favorite restaurant in Richardson, if you were there at a certain time of night, a group of men would go to a quiet part of the room, pull out prayer rugs or improvise something to cover the floor, face Mecca, and pray. Maybe it's because I pray in public, often out loud, especially before eating but at other times if I need to. But I just don't think anyone should see anything wrong with someone practicing their religion in a way that does no harm to others.
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quote:Maybe I see this differently because at my favorite restaurant in Richardson, if you were there at a certain time of night, a group of men would go to a quiet part of the room, pull out prayer rugs or improvise something to cover the floor, face Mecca, and pray. Maybe it's because I pray in public, often out loud, especially before eating but at other times if I need to. But I just don't think anyone should see anything wrong with someone practicing their religion in a way that does no harm to others.
Granted, but I'd suggest that those experiences are not the norm. I've never once seen a muslim pray in public - in fact, I've never seen ANYONE pray in public, in a serious fashion, except in places like cemetaries.
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posted
I'm sorry but I think this one gets chalked up to religious stupidity. These guys could have easily rode the escalator outside or walked out to the circular ramps.
Instead, they plop down on the concourse. Under an air vent. While the ex-Presidents are in the stadium.
After seeing these guys interviewed, I have even less sympathy. The one (of the five) doing all of the media plugs is a second year law student who comes off sounding like he was looking for a legal fight.
If you're paying $80+ to go to a game, watch the game.
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Granted, but I'd suggest that those experiences are not the norm. I've never once seen a muslim pray in public - in fact, I've never seen ANYONE pray in public, in a serious fashion, except in places like cemetaries.
Then you either haven't spent much time around certain types of religious people (not just Muslims, either), or you haven't been paying attention.
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quote:Originally posted by Zamphyr: I'm sorry but I think this one gets chalked up to religious stupidity. These guys could have easily rode the escalator outside or walked out to the circular ramps.
Why on earth should they? They paid for their access; they are allowed to use it for any reasonable purpose that doesn't violate the rules. I doubt this did.
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posted
This article focuses less on the fact that a group of Muslims was congregating in prayer, and more on the issue of where they were gathered. I'm not sure if the FBI is using their location as an excuse for detaining the men, but it makes sense to me.
quote: "You had 80,000 people there, Bush 41 was there, and you had a group of gentlemen gathering in an area not normally used by the public right near the main air intake duct for the stadium, and a food preparation facility," Siegel said. "It was where they were, not what they were doing."
The more I read on this the more I'm convinced that having security called was not a bad idea. I feel safer knowing that people are this alert to potential, if highly unlikely, threats.
posted
Mmm. On the face of it, taht sounds reasonable; but I have to wonder, what if they had been, let's say, Baptists, and chosen the same spot to loudly denounce the sin of football? (Or you can have them praying loudly, if you prefer.) To add an extra twist, suppose they were Arab Baptists?
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quote:Granted, but I'd suggest that those experiences are not the norm. I've never once seen a muslim pray in public - in fact, I've never seen ANYONE pray in public, in a serious fashion, except in places like cemetaries.
I'd suggest that that is not the norm.
And I can't believe I am agreeing with KoM once again, but good post.
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posted
Actually, I've had to drop orange juice until my travel allowance arrives from Ohio. (Well, in principle I could transfer money from Norway, but I'm loathe to lose that lovely 3% interest, and anyway it's not an infinite resource.) Unhappily the university are being unconscionably slow about it. Living on an Ohio salary at California prices is proving an interesting experience.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: This kind of religious profiling burns you up?
So um, what kind of religious profiling are you okay with?
Um, the kind that doesn't assume that people are evil because of their religion. I'm an Orthodox Jew, and I dress like one. I live in a neighborhood that has a lot of Jews, and I have a Jewish-sounding name. So, a lot of people see me and figure I am Jewish. Well, no harm done. And sometimes they figure that because I am an Orthodox Jew, I would be a good target to hit for begging (and I am), or that I would know a good recipe for chicken soup (and I do), and that I am likely not to be able to work on Saturdays (and I'm not).
But I would mind if people assume that because I'm Jewish, I hate America, I want to cause harm to my neighbors, or that I'm not a full-fledged member of this country.
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posted
Well, it's just possible that people who hate America and want to destroy the country are statistically more likely to be Muslims than Christians. I mean, it's likely to be on the order of a few permille, if that, but the effect probably does exist.
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quote: the men found an open space near the concrete pillars by walkways and escalators at Gate D, and began to pray
Here's something that I'm willing to bet that most of you don't know about Muslims and prayer.
Before they pray, they're supposed to ritually wash themselves, and then, until their prayer is over, they cannot touch anyone of the opposite sex. When they pray, no one is supposed to walk about five or six feet in front of them. They are supposed to pray with something, such as a prayer mat, separating them from the ground or floor. They are supposed to pray facing Mecca.
And the final bit of information. There is a time period during which they can pray. If the time period is from 12:15 to 3:45, for example, that means that they can pray at any point in time during that time period. It's entirely possible they could have prayed at home before they came, or, depending on how long the game lasted, prayed after they left.
But then, I don't have enough information, such as what time this took place, to know that. Times are dependant on latitude and longitude, as well as time of year.
While I have no doubt that they could have ensured they were facing Mecca, and they could have brought prayer mats with them, what about washing themselves and making sure no one of the opposite sex touch them? What of making sure that no one walked in front of them, considering they prayed near walkways and escalators?
Fahim and the other Muslims I know would never put themselves into that position. He would either pray at home before going, even if that meant being late for the game, or skip the prayer.
Honestly, it sounds more like they were trying to get a reaction than anything else.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Quid, what if they had been at the game all day? Also, like I've said, I've seen Muslims pray in public in this country. They washed in the bathroom, said "excuse me" and gave women a generous berth, and got right up against the wall (I never knew why, it must be so no one could walk in front of them.) It's quite possible that they were at the game since well before the time they could pray, and that they chose the only space that fit their needs and had made provision to pray there if the game lasted that long. They were probably just used to praying in public if they happened to be out and had never had a problem with it before. (I've even seen men ask shopkeepers if it's okay if they use a corner of the store to pray. And everyone around the people praying I have seen has always been quiet, respectful, and waited until they were done to approach them.)
My point is, while it may not have been the most well-thought-out plan, I don't think they were doing it for attention or a reaction.
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posted
There isn't enough information in the article to get a really good idea of what happened, and that's part of the problem here. If they, like the people you've seen, arranged themselves in such a way that no one could walk in front of them while they were praying, then that changes things. If they were in a fairly quiet area with not a lot of public access, then that could change things. If they washed themselves while the game was in progress, then there wouldn't have been as many people in the walkways for them to bump into, so they may have been able to avoid inadvertantly touching any women. I don't know. It's possible.
I dunno, that was just my initial reaction, but perhaps they just didn't think of how it would be viewed. It's hard to tell.
When we go out, we usually plan our outings around his prayer time. When that isn't possible, he'll skip prayers if there's no good, convenient way to get his prayers in. If we're at his parents place, then he'll use their prayer mats, of course. One job he worked at had enough Muslim staff that they had a room with prayer mats set aside for daily prayers. The department store we shop at appears to have such a room set aside for their employees, as well as during Ramadan, they have a room set aside for employees breaking fast - but only employees. Some accomodations are made when there are enough Muslims.
When there are not, he'll forego prayers, or, in the case of this football game, he just wouldn't have gone. He wouldn't have done what those five men did. There's nothing wrong with praying in public as long as he doesn't get distracted with what's going on, but he still would prefer not to.
When I see people praying in public, it's usually at a restaurant over a meal, but that's about it. Other than that, there's not a lot of public praying going on. That includes when I lived in Canada.
My experiences with people praying in public is, compared to your experiences I'm guessing, much more limited.
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posted
Another thing is that I think the attitude of American Muslims toward prayer, from what I've seen, may be different. They seem more open to doing it in public-- if they can arrange decent accomodations-- but the ones who pray in public ABSOLUTELY DO NOT skip prayers. So it may be a cultural schism, too.
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posted
I can't ever recall seeing someone praying in public either. Most of my family is highly religious, and half Baptist, half Catholic, well, not that cut and dry, they are a mix of denominations.
I see them pray all the time at dinner, but never see people praying at the mall or the movie theater. So yes, were I at the mall and a mass of Muslims, or Jews, or anyone, got down to pray, I'd be a little nervous, especially Muslims. And I don't think it's racist of me to react that way, it's an act of human preservation.
As for this specific case at the football game. I don't think it was uncalled for to check out the situation. It was a precautionary measure.
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quote:I see them pray all the time at dinner, but never see people praying at the mall or the movie theater.
I've prayed in the mall AND the movie theater. Not usually as part of a large group-- although 20 of us prayed together at Knott's Berry Farm once when one of the girls lost her keys.
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posted
In response to KQ stating that officials could have waited until after the prayer had ended...I'm with Lyrhawn. Doesn't the part about the blowing things up traditionally happen following prayer? I'm not trying to sound crass or disrespectful, but I think that having security interrupt the praying was the smartest thing to do.
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quote:I'm just saying I've never seen anyone pray, let alone aloud, let alone in a large group.
Well, I think it's more common in some places and among some people than others. When we had an apartment "block party" in our heavily religious area, we had a prayer before the food. And I tend to like to eat at halal restaurants when I go for Middle Eastern food, which attract a large Muslim population (because they tend to have the best food and the meat is really good, no other specific reason.) And, you know, I'm Mormon, and Mormons pray in groups, even in public. I'm not doubting your experience is different from mine, since I probably tend to seek out places and groups where people might tend to pray more openly.
quote:In response to KQ stating that officials could have waited until after the prayer had ended...I'm with Lyrhawn. Doesn't the part about the blowing things up traditionally happen following prayer? I'm not trying to sound crass or disrespectful, but I think that having security interrupt the praying was the smartest thing to do.
If they didn't have suspicious-looking, unsearched bags or weapons-- which I'm betting they didn't, at most large events now you have to have your bag searched and go through a metal detector-- then yes, they should have waited until after the prayer. They could have stood behind them and blocked others from entering the area, and when they were done praying, asked them their questions then. If someone made a suspicious move or anything while praying, of course, it would have been appropriate, for the safety of others, to check it out. But more consideration for prayer could have been given. It all depends on the situation, and like quid said, we don't have all the details. Also, I'm with KoM-- if Baptists had been kneeling and praying, would they have been interrupted to check them for security concerns, or would they have waited until the prayer was done and asked them to move along?
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posted
Maybe I'm just not understanding how a fanatical terrorist might think, but if they actually had been "up to something," it doesn't really make sense to me that they'd openly engage in public prayer at the site where their presumed attack would hypothetically take place. I mean, wouldn't that be a pretty stupid move for a would-be terrorist? It'd be like waving a nice big banner announcing their intentions.
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quote: It'd be like waving a nice big banner announcing their intentions.
Well, clearly not, if the consensus among the people on this board is that there was nothing wrong with their behavior. Obviously some part of the population does think that there was, or this wouldn't be national news, but I'm assuming the majority would not think twice about their actions. Seems to me the suicide bombers overseas prayed pretty openly before setting off a bomb, until someone noticed a pattern and now it's easier to spot. Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful. I would love to live in a world where no one DOES think twice about any religious group publicly gathering to pray - unfortunately, the current state of our society is not one that easily tolerates this sort of thing. It's a regrettable situation all around, but I still think security acted appropriately.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Another thing is that I think the attitude of American Muslims toward prayer, from what I've seen, may be different. They seem more open to doing it in public-- if they can arrange decent accomodations-- but the ones who pray in public ABSOLUTELY DO NOT skip prayers. So it may be a cultural schism, too.
Huh. That hadn't occurred to me. You've got a good point.
Also, I'll mention that, where I come from in Canada, we absolutely do not make our religion overly public. We avoid discussing religion (except among those closest to us) and go to great pains to not be obvious with our religion to others. That is another factor which directly impacts my experiences.
I was looking at this strictly from my Canadian experience, and if Muslims in the US are as open about praying in public as you say, then that changes everything.
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posted
I think people in America in general are a lot more open and public about their religion; it's just part of the culture. After all, we're big on that being a guaranteed right and all that stuff.
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posted
Like they aren't in Canada. *snort* Considering the way certain religions are getting tangled up in politics here in the States, I think Canada has a better claim on being religiously tolerant and making sure that that guaranteed right is actually enforced.
That being said... I have a Muslim roommate from Bangladesh. I'm dating a Hindu from India, which has a decently high number of Muslims. All three of us agree that the Muslim group in this situation acted in an unintelligent manner.
The difference between your store and restaurant examples, ketchupqueen, and this case lies in the permission of the owner of the facility. If they had gone up to security and said "we need to pray now, is it all right if we use that corner?" then there wouldn't have been a problem. But they did it without locating any representative of the place in which they were praying. A stadium isn't a public place - it's a privately-owned one to which a large number of the public regularly comes. If a Muslim, Christian prayer group, or Jew just sat down in the middle of a grocery store and started praying, I think an owner or employee of the store has the right to ask what the person is doing.
Furthermore, as stated above, I think that anyone hanging around the food preparation area/air vents is a security risk, no matter who it is. There are many dangerous chemicals that could easily be slipped by the security at the gate - anthrax, for instance. If that chemical was in the venting system, the security team needed to know that immediately so that they could shut it off. In this case it's the matter of a slight harm of the Muslim group (in interrupting their prayers) vs. a potential great benefit to the thousands of people in the stadium (by knowing if there is a dangerous chemical in the vent system).
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Could they have done it without disturbing the prayer? I'm betting they could have.
They didn't disturb the prayer. From what I've read, the security found them in their seats after they prayed and brought them in for questioning.
It's not a matter of 'they weren't allowed to practice relion freely', it's more 'they feel insulted at being questioned/profiled.'
While I'd probably feel insulted for having my citizenship questioned and having my game viewing experience interrupted, I don't think I'd sue over being questioned and having my seats moved to a different area.
Matter of degrees I guess.
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quote:sometimes they figure that because I am an Orthodox Jew, I would be a good target to hit for begging (and I am)
Why would they think that? I would have assumed that the stereotype would be just the opposite.
Are you referring to the stereotype of the "Cheap Jew"?
One of the commandments that Orthodox Jews take very seriously is the commandment to give charity. There is a class of beggars that know this and use it to their advantage. In my neighborhood, a car from out of town will pull up on the street, disgorge its contents of a half-dozen beggars (in full Orthodox Jewish regalia -- black hat, coat, etc) who go door-to-door asking for money. The neighbors are all prepared with cash that they keep ready for handouts.
The beggars will also hit you up at a party or meeting that is held at the synagogue, and at the carpool lane at the yeshiva.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Oooh. I figured it was something like that. But why are the beggars dressed up in full Jewish Orthodox regalia? Does that make a difference? Also, if you are fairly sure the person isn't really a beggar, or is lying through his teeth, are you still called to donate money?
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Oooh. I figured it was something like that. But why are the beggars dressed up in full Jewish Orthodox regalia? Does that make a difference? Also, if you are fairly sure the person isn't really a beggar, or is lying through his teeth, are you still called to donate money?
They are dressed that way because that is the way they always dress -- they ARE Orthodox Jews. They are viewed with some degree of tolerance, as they are allowing us to fulfill the commandment of giving charity.
Sometime I will have to share how my family got on the "Do-Not-Beg List". Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:If they had gone up to security and said "we need to pray now, is it all right if we use that corner?" then there wouldn't have been a problem. But they did it without locating any representative of the place in which they were praying.
THAT is very true. But you know, I wonder how many people really think about stadiums being privately owned? I know I never thought about it much. Like I said, these people didn't show much forethought. Yeah, it was a pretty un-well-thought-through thing to do, I'll agree with that.
quote:They didn't disturb the prayer. From what I've read, the security found them in their seats after they prayed and brought them in for questioning.
Hmmm. That's better. But I still think the appropriate response would have been to approach them IMMEDIATELY after praying if there was a concern, and ask POLITELY what was going on-- and then be satisfied by that. I think it WAS wrong to be sought out in their seats and questioned about their citizenship and such.
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I've never once seen a muslim pray in public - in fact, I've never seen ANYONE pray in public, in a serious fashion, except in places like cemetaries.
If you ever take a flight where there are a large number of visibly Orthodox Jewish men on board and it's any time around morning, afternoon or early evening, you're very likely to see them get together in the back of the plane to pray.
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