posted
Consider the following not quite hypothetical situation.
A woman who is 20 years old has an almost 1 year old son. Her husband has started hitting her and she is in the process of leaving him. Unfortunately, she is pregnant again. She knows that she does not have the ability or resources to be the mother of two babies alone. Their father not only beats her but is pretty much a total loser. She has investigated giving the new baby up for adoption. She can't. The law requires that the father consent to the adoption and he will not. That leaves her three options, none of which are desirable.
1. Have an abortion. (The father doesn't have to approve this). 2. Raise the two babies by herself even though she knows she is incapable of doing it well. 3. Let the loser, abusive husband have custody of one or both of the babies.
What should she do? Can anyone come up with better options? Is there anything we can change in our society or community that would help?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
It is one of the greatest tragedies of our society that so many people have no one to go to when they're in trouble. Everybody should have family that they can lean on, live with, receive necessary financial/emotional support from, etc. Everybody should have not only parents, but grandparents, uncles and aunts, cousins, brothers and sisters, and in some cases children or grandchildren -- some kind of built-in safety net that they know they can always rely upon when things go bad.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Is there anything we can change in our society or community that would help?
Yeah, but it's going to take longer than six months.
If she is secure with bringing the baby to term, this seems like adoption would be the most suitable remedy. The problem is that she would have to tell the husband. This is going to end ugly, but the only way to make it end less ugly is to discuss adoption or abortion with the husband. She shouldn't cut him out of the loop on any of those decisions. Is there a social service that can mediate there talks?
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
But in most communities there ARE people to turn to - for financial help or for shelter or some combination. Many of them are church-centered, but most of those will help you whether you're a believer or not. You do have to be willing to ask for help, though, and accept it when it's given. Those are not the only three options.
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posted
Not everyone can have family in any society for a multitude of reasons. Everyone should have friends. But not everyone can.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yes, she can leave and get help. She doesn't have to raise the children alone. She can get help from family if they're around, friends if they're not, and private charities as well as the government. She should seek out a battered women's shelter immediately, because abuse often gets worse during pregnancy. Homicide is the number one cause of death among pregnant women in America, and more than 60% of the homicides are perpetrated by the father of the baby. She needs to get out now. There ARE places to help. They will help her get a divorce and a restraining order. They will help her get a lawyer so she can tell the judge that he is abusive and he will never have custody of her children. And she will know she has a safe place to go, so she won't be tempted to think that he's her only option. For the sake of her children, she needs to get out NOW. And these same organizations can help her get job training and placement, assisted housing, child care, anything she needs to prepare herself for eventual independence.
Those are not her only options, and she needs to exercise this last one. (I mean, if she chooses an abortion, I guess that's her choice. But I think she's a loving mother who doesn't want to do that, from what I read of her.)
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posted
Ditch the loser and seek assistance from family and friends. Things can only get better from here.
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posted
May I ask, hypothetically, which state she lives in? I will look up hypothetical resources. Just to prove my point, you know. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I vote for option 4, which I've just constructed. She can't legally give the baby up for adoption, but she certainly won't be allowed to keep it if she can't support it. Can she talk to child services about some kind of workaround. Place the baby in a foster home or something?
I would definitely not let the husband have custody. Rank that one below selling the baby on the black market. Abortion would be my last ditch choice. I would recommend pursuing an exception to the adoption laws or raising the children on her own, and taking every applicable handout from the government, church, and her family she can to get by.
That's a terrible situation for whomever is in it. Good luck.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Ditch the loser and seek assistance from family and friends. Things can only get better from here.
I think that this is the general consensus, but if anything, it shows that my experiences are estranged from general run of Hatrack, because you know what, a large swath of people that I know in similar situations don't have the family or friends competent enough to give meaningful aide in raising a child, or even pay for the pregnancy and delivery.
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posted
That's why I suggested a battered woman's shelter. Preferably one with resources to transfer her to a longer-term facility. Now.
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posted
And if she has no health insurance and needs care for pregnancy and delivery, the state will help with that.
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posted
If the husband is abusing her physically the police should also be called and he should be arrested
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
It's sad. But better for them to be (at least temporarily) fatherless than to be abused, or to be scarred by their mother being abused or worse.
Abusers in general don't stop. And if one target of abuse is removed, they very often move on to another. Most of them don't change, even if they try. Abuse is the one reason I think that a marriage should end immediately, especially if children are involved, unless there is an extraordinary support system in place to protect the family of the abuser and help the abuser change, because it's the only way to break the cycle-- get the kids out of the abusive home and get them help.
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posted
I don't know. I don't appreciate any of the substitutes other than getting them in the room with a mediator, and social services for the mother if things turn out poorly.
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posted
Are you aware that mediation for abuse is not generally effective in the long run and sometimes makes it worse?
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posted
Yep, and I've been told that quite a few marriages in end in divorce, but I still think that people should get married, and that both parents should have a say in the raising of children.
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posted
If abuse is present, I do think the mother (and 1 year old) need to leave (temporarily, if not permanently) and seek out the help of social services.
Would she still be required to obtain the father's permission to place the baby up for adoption if they are divorced? I have no idea how this works. If she was granted sole custody of the children, would she be able to give up the baby?
I just don't like any of the 3 options Rabbit listed. I want another one (or two or three).
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:but I still think that people should get married, and that both parents should have a say in the raising of children.
They should. Except that an abusive spouse and parent isn't being a spouse and parent, and shouldn't be allowed to continue abuse.
Every right has a point where it infringes on the rights of others. That's why we have laws to define when a person crosses that line and protect the victims. In this situation, it is more important to protect the victims than to protect the rights of the abuser. Sorry.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Would she still be required to obtain the father's permission to place the baby up for adoption if they are divorced? I have no idea how this works. If she was granted sole custody of the children, would she be able to give up the baby?
Unless the father waives his parental rights, she is not allowed to give the baby up for adoption. (I think it can be placed in foster care under some circumstances, but they may take the other child, too, and how could she give up either or both of her children, really, anyway? I would never have made that an option on the list.) If she is given sole custody and his visitation is specifically denied, that means that he can't see them until that order is reversed or amended, especially if a protective order is added, but that doesn't mean that he loses his parental right to have control over things like adoption.
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posted
How about a legal separation and counseling for the parents both alone and together?
And I know it's hard, but lots of women manage to raise their children while being single--even without an education. It's certainly not ideal, but if she can manage to provide for one child, I'd bet she could provide for two. Plus, he should be forced to pay child support and maybe even alimony.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
"Would she still be required to obtain the father's permission to place the baby up for adoption if they are divorced? "
The answer is yes. If the father is known, the father must give consent in order for the child to be adopted. Even if the father is declared an unfit parent, is restrained by legal order from contact with the child or is in prison, the child can not be legally adopted without his consent. This situation comes up surprisingly frequently. The most common situation is where the mother marries and her husband want to legally adopt her children, but cases like this where the mother wishes to give up an infant for adoption and her husband/boyfriend won't consent are becoming more and more common.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
(Rabbit, did you see my list of resources? Hypothetically, that would be a good place to start looking for help for your hypothetical woman.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Another, albeit unpalatable, option would be for her to have the baby and then abandon it. In Arizona at least, there are designated locations where women can leave their newborn babies, no questions asked. This was designed to give desperate women an option other than leaving their baby in the trash. Presumably, these babies are under the care of the state and can be placed up for adoption.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Yes, but if they find the father, he would then get custody of the child (since he was married to the mother and did not consent to the abandonment. At least, I'm guessing that's what would happen.)
quote: She knows that she does not have the ability or resources to be the mother of two babies alone
Why is she so absolutely sure of this?
I felt the same way when I became a single parent. It is easy to feel overwhelmed when you're in the moment.
I think she is selling herself short by believing this cannot be done. Humans throughout history have arisen above what they think they are capable of when thrust into a situation.
And, as others have said, there is no reason why she should feel she is ever "alone". There are people out there willing to help if she would like help.
posted
Are you absolutely sure that he can't have his parental rights revoked due to abuse?
I don't know if this is happening in Utah (that's where you are, Rabbit, right?), but here are the grounds for termination of parental rights. One of them is the termination of of rights of another child. So if she can have the father's rights terminated for their existing child, she would have grounds for termination on the one she's carrying.
I think she should see a lawyer to see what her rights are in this case. This may be a case that the American Center for Law and Justice would be willing to take. It would be worth checking out.
I felt the same way when I became a single parent. It is easy to feel overwhelmed when you're in the moment.
I think she is selling herself short by believing this cannot be done.
Thank you for that, FG. I wanted to say it, but didn't have the experience to back it up.
(Heck, I sometimes think I can't be the mother of two children, and I've got a loving, helpful, supportive husband.)
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posted
This hypothetical case is taking place in California. Previous complex legal history suggest it is highly unlikely that the courts will terminate his parental rights.
The hypothetical woman has family support and good connection to the battered women's facility.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Then I'm with FG; why does she feel she can't support two children but can one? I think she may just be feeling overwhelmed. I know how it is to be pregnant and overwhelmed. I feel that way myself a lot right now. But I know it will pass, and I would regret doing anything that deprived me of my second child.
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quote:why does she feel she can't support two children but can one?
Probably because she has one child and know how much work is involved and can't imagine doubling that load.
ketchupqueen, You feel overwhelmed with the prospect of a second child right now and you have a supportive husband.
Imagine how you would feel if you were barely 20 with no job skills and you knew you would be raising these children without a reasonsible father.
You know that it will pass. She has had enough experience raising 1 child with a total looser father to know that it won't pass for a very very long time. She knows she can't do it alone. Even with the support of family and community, she knows that she is looking at a very long hard road for both her and her children.
If you feel overwhelmed having a second child with good father, then you can imagine why she believes that she can't do justice to mothering two children in her situation.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I'm 22. I have no job, my husband just lost his. But I also know that a second child doesn't really double the load, and that I have a support system. Of course it's overwhelming, for her, too. But when you're pregnant, it can be hard to see things rationally, especially in a bad situation.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Believe it or not, personally, it was LESS overwhelming to raise my 3 children without a spouse, than it was to raise them with the abusive spouse in the house.
Because the emotional stress is different. I had control of how things went -- I didn't have to tiptoe around him any more, fear for my life, fear for my kids.
I would take single-parenting 3 kids (as I have) anyday over parenting two-parent in an abusive household. Anyday.
But that is me. And I am not her, nor can I speak for your friend. I just hope you pass along to her my personal experience.
20 years later -- all the hard times will be a distant past blur.
posted
Does she have a lawyer? If not, she needs to get one pronto. She'll need to see someone who specialized in family law. She should try the Legal Aid office in her county. Here's one for the state of California: http://www.legalaidcalifornia.com/Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I think she needs to start documenting the abuse. This means journal entries for every incident -the journal should be kept at a secure location away from the abuser - and taking photographs of any physical evidence. If this should ever go to court, she needs support beyond "he says she says."
I also disagree with the above comment that the father of the child has the right to be involved if she decides to consider abortion. The choice to abuse a woman to the point that she feels she needs to leave a relationship for her safety and that of her child AND is considering an abortion simply to be able to care for her existing child is a choice to waive his rights in any decisions she makes.
I think that if she does want to carry the child to term, there are excellent resources to help her. But I also think we as a group are overemphasizing just how helpful those resources are. It is very, very hard to raise two children with limited family support, financial resources, an abusive father to protect them from, and possibly a limited education and God knows what else. Rabbit, let her know that there are lots of people rooting for her.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
There are also pro-life pregnancy centers that would certainly provide some help... maybe even room and board... to her. Sorry if someone brought this up, but I was just skimming...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
FG, How old were you when you divorced your abusive spouse? How old were your children? What job skills did you have? Did you receive any child support from the exhusband?
My point isn't that your situation wasn't difficult, but that each situation has its own nuances. The fact that you barely remember the hard times 20 years later doesn' mean she won't.
I obliously haven't given you all the details of the situation and I really didn't want this to be a discussion of the situation. I have little if any ability to influence the this woman's choices.
The reason I wanted to bring this up at hatrack is because I think it presents a very difficult ethical dilemna.
I believe that when a mother knows that she can not provide a good home for a child, she should give the child up for adoption. This will be the best thing for the child. That's why I think that single teen age girls who give birth should give the child up for adoption rather than try to raise the child alone. But what if adoption isn't legally an option? What should a mother do then?
In this case there are three lives at stake. The life of the mother, the life of the 1 year old and the life on the unborn child. All of these lives will be impacted by the choice this woman makes. What will be best for the 1 year old? What will be best for the unborn child? What will be best for the Mother? How do you weight the needs of these people against each other?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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That is exactly why I qualified my comments with this:
quote:And I am not her, nor can I speak for your friend. I just hope you pass along to her my personal experience.
I'm not saying what worked for me will work for her. I'm only passing along personal testimony that it DID work for me. But I may be a stronger individual, and obviously I had some different circumstances.
I was late 20s when he finally left. No, I did not receive any child support from him at all. Not in all these years.
I had family that could give me a limited amount of help (not really much financial, because they didn't have much). I did have some job skills, however, most jobs wouldn't pay enough for child care for three kids. I worked a few jobs, needed welfare off and on. When the kids were all in school, I went back to college and then got job skills that got me to where I am now.
posted
The husband should be required to support both children. Support is a separate issue than visitation. If abuse can be proven, visitation can be revoked and support still ordered.
I know finances don't account for everything summed up under "resources," but having money is better than not having it. Support can be arranged in such a way as to not require any contact with the husband.
Mrs.M's recommendation to get a lawyer representing this woman's interests is absolutely essential. Legal aid for this type of situation is generally easier (not easy) to get than in other situations. Women's shelters will know how to find it.
Is there any chance of getting a prosectution of this guy? That kind of record will greatly strengthen her legal position. Any injury that resulted in documented medical care might be enough, assuming she's willing to testify. Alternatively, a third-party witness to an assault would be sufficient. From what I hear, CA has moved to the forefront of domestic violence policy since the OJ trial.
This isn't meant to be comprehensive advice; I'm just commenting on the areas I know about.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
In my opinion the Father does have a right to make decisions in his children's life. The moment he starts hitting the mother or the children, he has made the decision that he does not care about those children's lives so he gets no more say.
Check into social services.
Right now.
They will be amazed at how much better their life is.
Succesful abusers have two tricks going for them. 1) They can appear friendly and supportive. This is an act they put on for mediators and judges. The wife has historically been extremely upset at what is going on, not used to playing such acting games, and comes across as over emotional.
2) The abuser will cut the abused off from all support structure outside the home, alienating them from friends and family. The abused believe they have no where to go. They are kept ignorant of their options, and misinformed of the law.
"Listen, your honor, I do not know why she is saying these lies about me. I have many business associates I have brought here who will vouch for me. She has no one who can stand to be with her when she is like this. I apologize for taking up the courts time. I promise to get her the psychiatric help she needs. Just look at her, in tears one moment, screaming the next. I have sworn to stay with her, even though these tough emotional times..." Which is why the courts and mediation have had such a bad history in the past. Both are being trained now to be wary.
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