posted
Or the middle school my mom teaches at, in the lunchroom.
I'm glad this thread has been bumped, and that the vaccine is being approved, as a 20 year old, not sexually active woman.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: [QB]The other diseases can all be transmitted at school. Is there any indication that cervical-cancer-related HPV can be so spread?
You definitely didn't go to my high school.
OK, let me rephrase: the other diseases can all be transmitted by performing only the actions sponsored by or allowed by the school.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Doctor: This injection will protect you against a certain type of cancer.
Mom: Thank you doctor.
Daughter: Mom, do I have to get a shot?
Mom: No, not if you want Cancer.
....
Why even tell them how it prevents cancer? I mean, if they had a shot that protected you from bone cancer would you inquire how or would you just take the shot?
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: [QB]The other diseases can all be transmitted at school. Is there any indication that cervical-cancer-related HPV can be so spread?
You definitely didn't go to my high school.
OK, let me rephrase: the other diseases can all be transmitted by performing only the actions sponsored by or allowed by the school.
I don't know what kind of school you went to, but my school didn't say we couldn't fool around, as long as we didn't do it on campus.
Why even tell them how it prevents cancer? I mean, if they had a shot that protected you from bone cancer would you inquire how or would you just take the shot?
I think most people would just take the shot.
Pix
Hmmm-no, I would want to know how first. Now would I have my kids gievn a shot unless I was willing to explain what it does, and how.
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pH, I think he's saying things that are actually allowed to happen in school, which you just said your school didn't.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I remember getting all my childhood vaccinations, and all I cared about was being frightened of getting a shot, and getting an ice cream cone after. I didn't care what the shots were for, how they prevented what, or any of that stuff.
I think most kids are kind of worried about disease in general, and don't like being sick.
I've honestly never believed that helping a child be safe has ever encouraged them to do anything dangerous. Kids will break rules or not based on a lot of things, but I don't think that safety measures count for much.
My parents taught me to never play with fire, and it didn't make me a pyromaniac. They taught me how to safely use power tools, and I never used them unsupervised specifically because I knew how dangerous they can be.
I think knowledge is power. The more you trust your children and give them the knowledge and protection to make good choices, I think the better off they are.
Children do lots of things they're not supposed to, regardless of their parent's wishes. Better that they be protected, I would say.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Actually, I'm a child out of four total, and We have had no shots and vaccinations. We're homeschooled, and, the last time we checked, most vaccines were either highly unlikely needed, because we wouldn't run into someone with that disease (In other words, it was about as usefull as a smallpox vaccine), or it had bad side-effects. We knew somebody who went deaf after a DPT shot.
I've recently got into a government funded arts program, and get to go to college for three weeks, so I have a menengitus shot, as well as the required tetanus. But we are under no legal obligation to get these shots (Even if you go to public schools, you don't have to. You'll be bothered with a bunch of paperwork, but, if filled, it will keep your child from getting vaccinated)
Anyway, I wouldn't give my child that shot, as I probably won't give him any other shot (Using shot interchangebly with vaccine).
Doctors love us. They think we're wackos who just read one article on the internet and think that the vaccines poison and all the doctors work for the government. Posts: 438 | Registered: May 2006
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I never believed the vaccines are poison rumors. Yes, some people react badly, but how many hundreds of thousands of people have no adverse reactions to vaccination, compared to the few who do?
Bunches of people who don't get vaccinated are a great way for new epidemics to start. A bunch of people get Measles, and health care centers are swamped, wasting energy, money, staff, time on people who shouldn't be sick in the first place.
Worse, these diseases, which should be essentially unknown in America, can get a foothold and have an opportunity to infect a significant number of people that a suitable resistant mutation takes hold, and then everybody's at risk.
Sorry Nathan2006, but I tend to agree with the doctors.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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We recently had a small polio outbreak in Minesota, in a Mennonite community where most people don't get vaccines. The community elders made announcements that the religion was not against vaccinations, and that it was probably a good thing to do, but left it up to everyone to make up their own mind, of course. But still. . . Polio? Who would have thought there was even any carriers left around for someone to get it from?
So, Nathan2006, I wish you luck in never running into anyone who's been exposed to any of the childhood diseases that are a lot more serious as an adult.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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My school (university) is now requiring measles shots because of recent outbreaks. One thing you have to consider, Nathan2006, is that while the risk of getting certain diseases is low in America, its not that low elsewhere in the world and college brings together many people from many different countries.
Yes, vaccines pose a small risk of complications but there are far greater risks to society as a whole and to your child in particular if you don't get them, IMO.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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A friend of mine got whooping cough at work (from someone who was originally from another country, and therefore probably not vaccinated) upon her return from maternity leave, and her 2-month-old daughter caught it (was just before she would have gotten vaccinated. The baby ended up in the hospital, cost the parents thousands of dollars, but was okay in the end. My kids get their shots. This is protection for them and for other people.
Since this is a new vaccination, I would research it, then set up an appointment to get my kids vaccinated. I think, as many have mentioned, that it isn't free license to have sex, just protection from cancer. So, I don't have a problem with that aspect of it. BTW, my daughters are 12 and 10.
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Also, Nathan, you'll have to review the entire issue when you have kids, especially if you don't homeschool. The risks/benefits will probably look quite different by then.
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Nathan- I homeschool and my kids are unvaccinated, except for the oldest. I live in the Seattle area, though, and have many friends who do not vax their public or private schooled children. They have never had a problem, here, you just check a box on the vaccination form, and don't know of anyone whose gotten so much as a comment. If you someday decide to put your non vaccinated kids in school, this is a great place to live. Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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There is a slight risk to many vaccinations, it's true, but that risk is much, much smaller than the risk of catching some really horrible illnesses if the population as a whole is not vaccinated. When people living amongst a population that vaccinates as a matter of course opt out, they are essentially banking on other people assuming risk so that they won't have to, it seems to me. Furthermore, if there are enough of them in an area they become potential resoviors for illness, it seems to me. I find both of these things troubling. Is my thinking in this regard off? I'm open to being wrong about this. I'd be interested in hearing more about the opinions of people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children and their motivations for not doing so.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Yes, I think there is an inherent selfishness, Noemon. "You vaccinate your kids so my kids don't have to be."
And yes, you're banking on others doing what you yourself choose not to do. There certainly could be reservoirs of certain illnesses and outbreaks because of people opting out of vaccinations. Like I said, red measles hasn't been in the picture in Alabama for years, but it's now coming back and every college student has to be vaccinated for it.
I've read all the literature on vaccinations and consider them an acceptable risk. They aren't risk free, but few things in life are.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: pH, I think he's saying things that are actually allowed to happen in school, which you just said your school didn't.
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: pH, I think he's saying things that are actually allowed to happen in school, which you just said your school didn't.
And those places which require the Hepatitis B vaccine - not all do, and none at all did when I was in school - are acting as improperly as any schools which attempt to require HPV vaccines in the future.
My point is that when mere presence can cause transmission of disease, the justification for use of the coercive power of the state is greater than in situations where mere presence is insufficient to cause transmission.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Note: I only read this thread for the first time today, so I'm replying to a very old post
quote:Originally posted by pH: I just looked up gential warts on webmd and found a picture.
Now I am too scarred to continue my search for information.
-pH
On the subject of images when you are searching online - Google sometimes puts images at the top of the page when you use the toolbar. In one case, I was researching hemophilia (to help Amanda with a school project). As a sidebar, I told her about the Russian royal family and Rasputin. I Googled Rasputin, and images came up - including a surviving body part that is in a museum in Russia. Let the faint of heart be warned - it's not a pretty sight. Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I really, honestly do not understand the arguments AGAINST vaccinating one's children, unless there are serious health concerns. I don't understand. Why does it matter if it's a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease? I was vaccinated for Hep B when I was ten, and I hadn't the slightest idea how it was spread, only that it was a liver disease.
I certainly didn't take it as license to go out and shoot heroin.
quote:Originally posted by pH: I really, honestly do not understand the arguments AGAINST vaccinating one's children, unless there are serious health concerns. I don't understand. Why does it matter if it's a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease? I was vaccinated for Hep B when I was ten, and I hadn't the slightest idea how it was spread, only that it was a liver disease.
I certainly didn't take it as license to go out and shoot heroin.
-pH
I'm not against vaccinating. I'm against certain vaccines being mandatory. Anytime the government compels us to do something we should consider it a big deal.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Doctor: This injection will protect you against a certain type of cancer.
Mom: Thank you doctor.
Daughter: Mom, do I have to get a shot?
Mom: No, not if you want Cancer.
....
Why even tell them how it prevents cancer? I mean, if they had a shot that protected you from bone cancer would you inquire how or would you just take the shot?
I think most people would just take the shot.
Pix
I think the danger in just saying "It prevents cervical cancer" without saying how is that you might end up with people who think they are completely immune to the disease, when really they are just immune to one specific way of getting it.
As far as the Hep B shots go, I didn't know that any schools actually required them. Mine offered them free at the health center in middle school for those whose parents wanted them to get vaccinated, and I received the shots, but it was something that your parents had to specifically sign you up for.
I'm with those who say a vaccine is a vaccine. I'm not really against sex before marriage, I think everyone has to keep with what they individually believe is right. But I am certainly considering getting this vaccine, just because you never know what can happen. According to the article linked on the first page, it is also effective against two other types of cancer (vulvar and vaginal) caused by those same strands of HPV. Personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I would also have no problem with my (future) kids getting it. Depending on who it gets approved for (I don't think it's approved for young kids yet) I would probably give them the option some time in high school, definitely making sure they know it's available before they go off to college. At that point they probably have some idea of whether they are going to retain the same values you've tried to instill in them. It isn't likely to change their minds about whether or not they are going to have sex, but if they do decide they want to there isn't much you can do to stop them once the majority of their time isn't spent under your roof (and often not much you can do before that). I'd rather keep them, and their future partner(s) protected.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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My school started requiring Hep B vaccines shortly after I got mine, but as I said, I also went to private school. I think my university required them as well...but I also go to a private university.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Yes, I think there is an inherent selfishness, Noemon. "You vaccinate your kids so my kids don't have to be."
And yes, you're banking on others doing what you yourself choose not to do. There certainly could be reservoirs of certain illnesses and outbreaks because of people opting out of vaccinations.
I find this a very erroneous view of how people who chose not to vaccinate. It's more accurate to say we have a different paradigm. We are unlikely to fully trust CDC reports on vaccine reactions and therefore see them as more prevalent than reported. (My eldest son had a moderate vaccine reaction to the measles only vaccine, which the dr's office refused to report as such, so I have personal experience with that.) I hope thet helps answer your question, Noemon. I really think it would only be selfish if I were counting on herd immunity- but I'm not. I live in an area with a higher tha usual unvaxed population, so I would be fooling myself if that were my strategy. What I'm banking on is healthy food, and plenty of exercise and frsh air will help make my children healthy enough to either not catch these diseases in the first place and if they do, have a milder case with no permanent damage. For example, in my little hippie freak subcommunity, I have seen about a dozen cases of pertussis, which my kids have never caught, and which none of the kids who did had lasting effects from. What I have seen of vaccinatable ( I know that's not a rrom) diseases versus what I have seen of vaccine effects, has convinced me to not vaccinate.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:What I have seen of vaccinatable ( I know that's not a rrom) diseases versus what I have seen of vaccine effects, has convinced me to not vaccinate.
Does that include polio?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:I live in an area with a higher tha usual unvaxed population, so I would be fooling myself if that were my strategy.
Regardless of your conscious motivation, you and your family still benefit tremendously from herd immunity. Before measles and pertussis vaccinations, nearly everyone contracted each disease. Measles has an infection rate of close to 90% from exposure among the non-immune (without vaccination or previous infection).
Essentially, your strategy would not be possible if 99% of people in the U.S. didn't get the vaccine. You might still decide to risk the deaths caused by those diseases, but the fact that almost everyone else been vaccinated has taken two orders of magnitude off the chance of dying from those diseases.
Meanwhile, those who cannot be vaccinated - more likely to suffer severe effects if infected - have a higher chance of catching the diseases as the number of those who choose not to be vaccinated rises.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: [QB] It's more accurate to say we have a different paradigm. We are unlikely to fully trust CDC reports on vaccine reactions and therefore see them as more prevalent than reported. (My eldest son had a moderate vaccine reaction to the measles only vaccine, which the dr's office refused to report as such, so I have personal experience with that.) I hope thet helps answer your question, Noemon.
It does to some degree, romany. I know you and respect you, so I felt pretty confident that you weren't taking an unconsciously selfish approach to things, and I figured that it was also pretty unlikely that it wasn't something that you'd just not thought about.
I'm not convinced that you're right, though (or at least not across the board). I wouldn't just blindly give my child every vaccine that became available--I would be reluctant to vaccinate a child of mine against chicken pox, for example, becasue I would be worry about the protection from the vaccine wearing off later in life and leaving them to face it as a very serious adult illness. Better to just get them infected with it when they're small, when it won't be a big deal (yes, I know, some people don't develop lifetime immunity from having had chicken pox. They're a tiny minority though).
That said, there are a lot of diseases that are responsible for the deaths and maiming of tens of thousands of children (probably more, but I'm feeling too lazy to dig up the exact figures)--things like polio, whooping cough, scarlet fever, and so forth, and those I would vaccinate my child against in a heartbeat, both to protect them and to do my part to stamp out those diseases.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I've had reactions to vaccinations (headaches, nausea, mild fevers), but they only lasted for maybe a handful of days. And really, I'd rather have a stomach upset for a couple of days than die because my brain swelled up inside my skull.
posted
Noemon- so far, only my oldest hasd been vaxxed about polio, and that is the one I worry about. Measles and pertussis would be ones however, where I just don't worry. Not that they won't catch it-those are the most two common for area outbreaks-but that these are healthy kids that would come out OK. Actually, of all the vaccines, the only one our ped has urged us to get is the Td(tetanus) ( since the kids run around barefoot all the time), and I did give Matthew that at 8. Livvie will probably get it at her next check up.
(BTW< i respect the hell out of you too.) But whatever we choose, something may go wrong and I'd feel gulity no matter what, so I do my research and decide from there.
Dagonee, you may be right, but I'd have to live in a different time or place to know, eh?
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: What I'm banking on is healthy food, and plenty of exercise and frsh air will help make my children healthy enough to either not catch these diseases in the first place and if they do, have a milder case with no permanent damage.
If that is your reasoning, I hope you are lucky. It doesn't sound plausible to me. I haven't seen any studies suggesting that healthy kids, or kids who eat organic foods, or kids who get fresh air, will have milder illnesses. Dagonee is right--you are depending on herd immunity a lot more than you think you are. That's by far the most likely reason your kids won't get sick. Unless you homeschool--I think Nathan had a point, he's less likely to get sick. But that only lasts till he goes to college.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese? I'm not a doctor, but I have worked child care for almost 20 years, and kids who eat healthy are healthier.
I don't mind people disagreeing with my choices- when you'e as far out of the mainstream as I am, it comes with the territory- but it bugs me when people think they more about why I do things than I do. My personal feelings about widespread vaccination ABSOLUTELY preclude the concept that I'm "relying on herd immunity".
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese? I'm not a doctor, but I have worked child care for almost 20 years, and kids who eat healthy are healthier.
I don't mind people disagreeing with my choices- when you'e as far out of the mainstream as I am, it comes with the territory- but it bugs me when people think they more about why I do things than I do. My personal feelings about widespread vaccination ABSOLUTELY preclude the concept that I'm "relying on herd immunity".
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese? I'm not a doctor, but I have worked child care for almost 20 years, and kids who eat healthy are healthier.
I don't mind people disagreeing with my choices- when you'e as far out of the mainstream as I am, it comes with the territory- but it bugs me when people think they more about why I do things than I do. My personal feelings about widespread vaccination ABSOLUTELY preclude the concept that I'm "relying on herd immunity".
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese? I'm not a doctor, but I have worked child care for almost 20 years, and kids who eat healthy are healthier.
I don't mind people disagreeing with my choices- when you'e as far out of the mainstream as I am, it comes with the territory- but it bugs me when people think they more about why I do things than I do. My personal feelings about widespread vaccination ABSOLUTELY preclude the concept that I'm "relying on herd immunity".
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese?
And yet, absent immunizations, nearly everyone got measles and pertussis at some point in their life.
quote:I don't mind people disagreeing with my choices- when you'e as far out of the mainstream as I am, it comes with the territory- but it bugs me when people think they more about why I do things than I do. My personal feelings about widespread vaccination ABSOLUTELY preclude the concept that I'm "relying on herd immunity"
Neither Theca nor I have said anything about your "personal feelings about widespread vaccination." Both Theca and I made it clear that weren't speaking of your state of mind in this regard. (Me: "Regardless of your conscious motivation, you and your family still benefit tremendously from herd immunity." Theca: "you are depending on herd immunity a lot more than you think you are.")
Both of us have made almost the exact same point: your children benefit enormously from herd immunity. That's pretty much a fact. You live in a society where non-immunized people are unlikely to catch measles precisely because of herd immunity generated through widespread vaccination.
Were you to live in a society with no immunizations, your children would face roughly a 3 in 1000 chance of dying of measles, assuming our health care system was otherwise the same.
Neither of us has claimed to know more about why you do things that you do. We have made particular claims about why your chosen course of action is far less risky thanks to herd immunity than it otherwise would be.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: You don't think akid who eats, healthy, whole grain food gets sick less often than kids who eat fast food and kraparoni and cheese? I'm not a doctor, but I have worked child care for almost 20 years, and kids who eat healthy are healthier.
Of course they're healthier in general. I bet they have less risk of childhood obesity, less chance of developing heart disease and high blood pressure later in life, and all sorts of other health benefits based on eating well. What Theca said is that none of those things necessarily mean they'll have a milder case of the measles than a different kid. Or rather, that she hasn't seen any studies indicating as much. So you're going on your gut and faith. And that's fine. Chances are pretty good that you'll never have to find out if you're right or not, because most other parents vaccinate. I'm not saying that you're wrong not to. But it definitely makes your choice much safer than it would be otherwise.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: It's not like it protects against all the other possible consequences, and most of those are worse than HPV. HPV isn't exactly the one to worry about most.
Actually, for women it is only the second worst. HIV of course being the big one. As to morals, medicine, religion and sociology, this is a story of a patient we dealt with today.
Patient became pregnant very young. This is in conflict with her family upbringing. After having been rejected by her family, she moved in with her boyfriend. She refused birth control in deference to her parents beliefs, and had several more babies quickly.
In further complication she is now HIV positive and has high risk HPV that has progressed from benign to non-invasive cancer in under a year.
Her family continues to neither acknowlege her nor her babies. She has been monogamous toughing out a bad situation because she thinks her parents would want that, though they still will not acknowlege her.
She is afraid and confused, with no adult relative to help her. What was supposed to have been a protective and right-minded upbringing went horribly wrong because of one unprepared and unforgiveable night when mom and dad were not in the back seat with their lesson of the day.
Ironically, it is her HPV that will likely kill her (yes, she can have a hysterectomy, but the virus is in her vaginal epithelium as well, and she has no immune system to help her recover) not her HIV.
In a nutshell--high risk HPV results in more significant negative life changes than any other STD outside of HIV. Treatment often results in incontinent cervix (can't retain a pregnancy) or hysterectomy. Not always, but often enough. Failure to treat-cancer.
posted
GodSpoken, while I understand why you are upset at this situation, I hope you will consider severely editing your post. You have a lot of personal information about this woman in there, and while I'm sure it seems like since you're not using your real name no one will connect you with your real town and hospital, and hence her identity, stranger things have happened on this forum. You are potentially seriously violating this person's privacy.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Remember, HIV doesn't kill people until the CD4 count drops down low. She may still have plenty of immune system left to recover from a hysterectomy which would take care of most of the HPV risk and then she could live many years with HIV if she is compliant with medication.
That's why we recommend paps yearly on high risk people.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I may well have asymptomatic HPV. From my wife.
If the vaccine became available and rigorous testing had suggested it was safe, I would happily vaccinate my daughter.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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ElJay--I appreciate your concern for her privacy, and I am highly sensitive to that on a personal level, and to HIPAA regulations on a professional one. There is very little information here that could lead to her identification, and she is one of a large number of teens with similar situations in this part of the country. I have edited my post, however, since unease was not my aim.
My point is, tragedy can result from the best meant teachings and protection, and from underestimating what is trivial and what young people NEED to know - regardless of whether or not their religious convictions SHOULD keep them risk free.
I find it hard to believe that frightened parents would believe their children would selectively believe the morals they teach them except in the presence of clinical information regarding sex, birth control or STD's.
Why would a teen with firm religious or moral convictions suddenly change values from simply having knowlege about these issues?
It is not the information that changes the beliefs or the behavior. But it could prevent the tragedy from whatever DID make them act.
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One of the nice things about many of these viral diseases is they can be eliminated if vaccination is widespread enough. Measles and mumps are almost unheard of in the States these days, for example.
Noemon, what about the risk of shingles later in life? I admit that I somewhat regret being born too late for the chicken pox vaccine, though there may be better treatments for shingles before it becomes a major concern for me.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I meant born too early. I got chickenpox before the vaccine came out.
After an infection, chickenpox virus lies dormant in nerve cells near the spinal cord. The immune system keeps it in check, but (generally in older people), the virus can reactivate itself and spread down the nerve cells to the skin. That's what shingles is, and it's why I'll have my hypothetical children vaccinated.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Shingles can be very serious - my husband carries a series of scars on his torso from shingles. And he was considered to have a relatively mild case. I also know someone who was scarred on the face pretty badly by it. It's a nasty disease. Caused by the same virus as chicken pox, as Shigosei said.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Interesting. Thanks for the information. Preventing that sounds like the first good argument I've heard for the vaccine. I still don't know whether I'd vaccinate my kids against chicken pox, though. It would depend on the severity of the potential side effects vs the potential severity of shingles, and then factor in what percent of vaccine recipients develop the side effects vs the percentage of people who develop shingles.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Just remember that while most people have a mild case of chicken pox, even kids who get it don't always have such a mild case.
My niece got it when she was 18 months old. (Warning -the next sentence or so may be graphic and disturbing)
Her outbreak was extremely severe - she had pox all over her body including inside the vagina. She was in a lot of pain, and ran a very high fever. It was an ordeal that my sister in law can tell you she would not wish on any parent.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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