So some of you remember Matt, the boyfriend who decided not to have a girlfriend until after college? Guess what.
That's right, he has a girlfriend.
Know what's worse?
She's one of my best friends.
What am I supposed to do now? I'm already on antidepressants, but I've never felt worse than what I feel now. He started dating again because of a comment I made- "Dating now is like practice for the future- you learn what you like, how to change, etc." Worst of all- he's a Christian dating a Wiccan, thinking he'll change her. And I know he can't. WHy did he break promises to God and to me like this? What do I do now?
posted
Keep doing what you've been doing. It's him that's changed, not you.
I'm sorry that he wasn't man enough to admit to you what was really going on before, but boys are like that. That's why there's that word for them until they become men.
He'll soon learn that it's foolish to try to change anyone's mind about anything important.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Sweetie, He is no good for you -- look how crazy he is making you.
Put him and his nonsense behind you and move on to something better. He has proven that he doesn't deserve you.
You deserve someone who will treat you right. You really do. I'm telling you that, but you should tell yourself, too.
I used to go with guys who treated me wrong, and I'd be all upset about it. Then I met the one who treated me like a queen, respects me, really cares about me, my well-being, and my feelings. It is good. You should know from such joy.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Your advice was correct, though, college IS a great time to learn about dating. I can't remember you mentioning Matt agreeing not to date anyone at all. I thought he just wanted to avoid kissing or any other physical displays of affection for the time being.
Why don't you just ask him more about his change of mind? Or it's time to just move on and stop asking questions you can't get good answers to.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Because he didn't want to date you, sweetheart. I'm sorry. It is not a reflection on you; it's a reflection on him. It's his issue. I'm sorry that he's dating your best friend - that will be awkward.
posted
I'm very sorry this is happening to you. I'm sure it makes you feel horrible.
Please don't blame him, though. People's hearts are unknowable things, even to themselves. It's no good forcing them about, this way and that, because they are delicate and will die if manhandled in this way. His heart is a free thing, and will settle where it will. It's a mistake to think it can be forced or logically persuaded.
Believe that he truly felt he shoudn't date until later, and then something happened that showed him differently. Don't imagine that it could have been you in your friend's place, changing his mind. Hearts don't follow logical laws. They just do what they do. Attach no blame to him or your friend. That is the wise and happy path to choose.
You may feel worthless and unloveable right now. That's often how it happens. But that's also a mistake. The fact that he doesn't love you probably says more about him, about who he is, than it does about you. Focus on things you enjoy that have nothing to do with your two friends. Try to channel your thoughts into positive and hopeful paths. All emotion is a matter of cascade. You can make significant changes in your feelings from your own choices.
Take really good care of yourself. Love yourself. Be good to yourself. You will get over this eventually, so why not start as soon as you can? Don't dwell on the things that make you sad but try to distract yourself and lose yourself in things that you enjoy, or that you can accomplish.
Again, I'm very sorry that this happened to you, and for how you must feel. <<<<<<<<hugs>>>>>>>>> Message me if you ever just want to talk to someone.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The only thing you can do is move forward. You can't control the universe. But you shouldn't let the universe contorl you, either. Pick yourself up, whipe off the dust, and move on. You don't have to right away, but eventually, you have to. If you don't, you'll never be happy.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Well, I just talked to my sister(she's 20, and is a lot more mature about these things than I am). Her advice was to realize that he really is an immature jerk. She told me that the more I get involved with my church, the more I'll meet guys that are worth my time, the kind of guys that would share more than just interests, they'd share my faith. I thought matt shared my faith- he's Christian. But now he's dating a Wiccan, knowing it's wrong... and it doesn't bother him. I don't know why my tears and my hurt don't matter to someone who saved my life more than once when I attempted suicide. I've decided to just avoid him now. If my friendship with him means that I will just open myself up to get hurt again... it's not worth it.
THanks for your advice. It's nice to get a more impartial view on things when I'm really down.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You sound like it is more than problems with a boy. You sound like you have some deeper emotional problems. I think maybe you should work on being happy before you worry about seeing anyone. If there is one thing I have learned about relationships, it is that even the best pairings are impossible when the people in them are happy with themselves.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I am working on being happy- I saw a doctor for my depression about a month ago, and I'm going in for a followup soon. I'm just tired of not being able to trust anyone that I've met in person. Hence why I trust Hatrack. Heck, I'm not even "real" yet.
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posted
You two broke up right? So why are you upset that he's dating someone else? Did you expect him to stop dating her because you're upset about it?
Besides, why is he dating someone that he wants to change? She's perfectly happy being a Wiccan.
Posts: 155 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
He promised me he wouldn't date until after college. He also promised that to God. THAT'S what upsets me. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
He also told me to keep hoping, because if he ever started dating again, it would be me. Another promise that he broke.
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posted
People can't always predict their own actions no matter how hard they try. It doesn't mean you can't trust them. It just means that they aren't perfect and all knowing. Let people grow and change and learn. Making mistakes isn't the end of the world. Its the beginning of finding a path.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by theresa51282: People can't always predict their own actions no matter how hard they try. It doesn't mean you can't trust them. It just means that they aren't perfect and all knowing. Let people grow and change and learn. Making mistakes isn't the end of the world. Its the beginning of finding a path.
But when every promise he's made has been broken(no exaggeration), and almost everything he says is a lie, can I trust him then? He promised me he'd be honest. Now I find out he hasn't been.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
A person is what they do. His actions are a part of him. If you don't like what he's done...
There is no "Matt" other than the one who did what he did. There is no "The Matt you want Matt to be" hidden deep within the Matt that behaved so badly.
But, at the same time, people aren't perfect, either.
Posts: 1862 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Nope, you can't trust him. It sucks. Of course your "best friend" won't believe you that he's not trustworthy, so don't bother telling her.
But count your blessings.
You aren't stuck in a relationship with this lying untrustworthy jerk.
Hopefully he'll grow up and out of it. But he clearly isn't there yet. So yeah it hurts that you were lied to. He may have been lying to tell you what you wanted to hear. (not a good excuse, but a good attempt at an excuse)
But either way, he's clearly not a healthy, mature person himself, and not someone worth wasting any more time on. It's God's business to love him unconditionally. Not yours.
You don't owe him anything, and are now better off without him. What he is now, is a scumbag. He may not have always been a scumbag, but you are under no obligation to like current scum, regardless of how non-scummy he might have been in the past. He chose to be what he is today. (Or what ssywak said... he's choosing his current actions)
posted
Tinros, I'd like to recommend a book for you that you might find interesting. It's called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. It's Christian based, so you may well find what they talk about resonates with you. It may help you see what you can or should do in situations like this. If you can't afford to buy a copy, drop me an email with your address and I'll be pleased to send you mine.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: Why did he break promises to God and to me like this?
Leaving aside the issue that dating a Wiccan is probably not actually against the doctrines of your faith, he's dating her because he wants to. She might make him happy. Or he might be fairly shallow.
He might well be passionately devout, and believe that God has led him to this girl. He might be shrugging off his belief. Or anything in between.
But the important thing to keep in mind is this: it doesn't actually matter. He's a young man and he's dating somebody; the Earth will continue its orbit around the sun even if he's dating the wrong somebody, and there will continue to be better men out there for you to find.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
THere is a verse in the bible that says, "Do not yoke yourselfs with non-believers." His parents don't approve, his church doesn't approve, HE doesn't technically approve.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
And yet, here he is dating her anyway. So obviously his faith is less important to him then he claims.
I know you don't want to hear it, but everyone here thinks you can do better than this guy, and though it doesn't seem like it, there are more guys out there.
[ November 16, 2005, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: So obviously his faith is less important to him then he claims.
Or he doesn't interpret the verse that way, which is also a possibility. Or, as Tinros herself observed, he thinks he can somehow convert this girl into a believer -- which would be kind of a twofer, really.
But, no, the consensus here is that Matt as described is not and has never been much of a winner. He's not worth the anguish.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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If so, why let him keep using you as a doormat? You deserve better and obviously he isn't it. Let her have him and all the troubles she'll have with an untrustworthy dolt as a boyfriend.
Go out, find a new and better one. I bet it won't take long and I bet you'll be much happier.
I don't want to be harsh, but the reality is that the guy is obviously a jerk who would rather lie to you than be honest. Who wants that?
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I'm sorry Tinros, but I dont understand. It's not OK for this guy to date a nonchristian, but it's ok for you to be best friends with her? Whats the difference?
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: the more I get involved with my church, the more I'll meet guys that are worth my time, the kind of guys that would share more than just interests, they'd share my faith.
Umm i'd like to point out dating people from your church is never a great idea, i mean when things end, you'll still see them every sunday, and there is no such thing as "a clean breakup"
quote: It's not OK for this guy to date a non-christian, but it's ok for you to be best friends with her? Whats the difference?
quote: "Do not yoke yourselfs with non-believers."
Two thing:
One, Which verse it this one? I have no doubt that it is in the Bible, but I have a feeling that you don't know where? It might just be me, but I think condemning someone over an obscure verse that you can only quote from having it told to you is a bit... unchristian... Here's one for "But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?", James 4:12.
Two, Clearly you are attached to this girl, otherwise you wouldn't be so upset about her and this TEENAGE BOY dating. How can one be so attached without being "yoked" to someone?
quote: Why did he break promises to God and to me like this?
How do you know he swore an oath to god? Did he hold a bible in his left hand and hold his right in the air and proclaim to god that he wasn't going to date till college? Now his betrayal to you is something that you have every right to be upset about, but as many people around here have pointed out, he is not worth being upset about.
Now, Tinros, let this teenage boy be as hypocritical as he wants, it's between him and god, and unless your one of the people who protests at soldiers funerals because god is punishing them for the U.S. allowing homosexuality, then I expect you to have enough logic skills to figure out how hypocritical your being about this.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
You say he made a promise to god. Isn't that promise between him and god... not you?
You two broke up... What he does from now on is his business. Not yours.
As has been said... He can't date her, but she is a good friend... To the above I'd add, that she obviously doesn't think you are that "good" a friend to risk losing your friendship over this dude.
I suspect the root of this problem has little to do with this fellow and more to do with a much deeper issue. The fact that the relationship is a month dead and you are still emotionally in it, points to something far more complex.
I would ask you to reflect not on why he has done what he has, but more on why what he did matters so much to you. I know you are Christian, but I hope you will keep and open mind as I recount a lesson from Buddhism.
There is a story of two Japanese monks who were traveling together and arrived at a river where they met a beautiful geisha girl who could not cross the river on her own without messing up her fine kimono. So, the elder monk took her on his back and carried her across. When they had reached the far bank, he put her down and they went on their way. The younger monk did not say anything. But he strongly felt that the elder monk had not behaved properly. As the temple came in to view he asked, "Do you remember the young woman we met at the river? Was it proper for a holy monk to carry her across? She was a beautiful lady." The elder monk turned to him and said, "I left her by the bank of the river. Are you still carrying her?"
posted
There is a group of people I hang out with every day, just because of the way our schedules run. This girl is in that little group of people I call my best friends. She had no idea there was anything going on between me and matt- he didn't even tell her he HAD dated me until after he said yes. When I say he swore an oath to God, yes, I mean he actually Told God, and myself at the same time, that he wouldn't date until after high school. THat was one of the things that made our break up a little bit easier for me- that he wouldn't replace me so soon.
As for Bible verses, I can quote half the Bible, but I can't remember where I read it. I rarely remember things that are TOLD to me. I have to see them.
The "yoked" part comes from a chapter talking about marriage and children. That's why it is assumed that it's implying marriage/dating relationship, not just friendships. After all, Jesus' best friends were the lowest of low. But he didn't date any of them.
Oh, and JT? It's very easy to avoid people in my church. THe youth group has about 300 high schoolers.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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If she didn't know about you and your boy toy, then I wouldn't call her my best friend.
He has moved on, so what... You may still have feelings for him, but you'll never move on if all you do is sit around and drool over him
If you don't know where the verse came from, why are you so confident that you know what the context around it means?
300, that does give you better odds, but remember, it's a small world...
Now if it's sympathy your looking for your not going to get much from me. I mean you brought me out of my lurking because your whining irritated me so. I mean this is what, your third thread on the same looser. MOVE ON AND DON'T BLAME RELIGION FOR YOUR BEING UPSET.
Oh, by the way, Adult relationships are a lot harder than you think, this one sounds rather easy to work through compared to other scenarios, so learn your lesson and move one.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
>>Jesus' best friends were the lowest of low.
Mmmm. . . well, they weren't movers and shakers of the day, but neither were they the 'lowest of the low.' Let's not get carried away here-- none of the apostles were starving or pariahs when Jesus met them. (Notable exception may be Matthew, who tradition states, was a tax collector.)
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Tinros, You are obviously angry and upset, and with some justification. The boy promised you he would date you if he dated anyone. I'm trying to imagine how that conversation could have come around and the boy not feel "pressured" in some way. At the very least, he knew what you wanted and didn't want to disappoint you further (or didn't want to confront the issue truthfully).
Whatever else we can and can't say about him, we can certainly say that he's likely no better at dealing with these situations than you are.
You are both young and inexperienced, from what you have said. I'm very glad you have an older sister to talk to and get some sound advice.
I'll just add one more piece of advice. Anyone who would treat your heart so shabbily does not deserve your trust and affection. This episode, and the ones that have preceded it, should be convincing you to guard yourself from his influences on you. This is a sign of maturity, sadly, but one that makes good sense and should serve as an indicator to you of your own readiness to engage in a good and rewarding relationship with another human being.
Just as Matt has trampled your heart, it appears you may have pushed him too hard or too far. I'm not saying this to belittle you or talk you out of your pain. I am saying, however, that you may also not yet be ready for the kind of relationship you were hoping for from Matt. To pursue a person who does not care enough about you to know when to tell you the truth is a mistake. I hope you come away from this stronger and more sure of yourself so that you do not make that mistake in the future.
Imagine, if you will, a life of marriage with a person who feels like they are linked to you by an immature reaction to the pressure you put on them.
Imagine, instead, a life of marriage to someone who finds real joy in being linked to you.
Which do you want?
What can you do to achieve that?
It is extremely unlikely that Matt will ever be that person. He isn't that person now.
I know you are only talking about dating, and so this isn't about lifetime commitments. But I'm sure others will back me up on this. We all know many people who make the same mistakes in choosing a spouse that they did when they were kids just learning about dating.
I'd say take your own advice and use dating as way of learning how to related to someone on a close personal level in an atmosphere of mutual love and respect. Just don't put up with anything less than mutual love and respect.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
You know, I almost think you should kind of take a time out from going to your church while you sort your life out, Tinros. I recognize this is going to go over like a lead balloon on this forum, and I don't say it maliciously, but sometimes we need to take a step back from our everyday routine to get to know ourselves a little better. Sometimes it's good to take a breather from things that stress us out, and I'm not sure that your religion isn't one of those things.
In any case, good luck. I wish you all the best.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
One of the hardest lessons to learn is that it's better to be alone than to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
He promised you because he didn't want to date you, but he didn't want to hurt your feelings.
Go back and read the original thread you started on this and you'll see a lot of people (myself included) giving you that advice. People here have your best interests at heart.
posted
Uh, let me clarify. I didn't phrase my last post very well. What I'm fumblingly trying to say is that sometimes the burdens of trying to live up to, and in, the codes of a community can be kind of stressful, and that maybe taking time off for yourself, to give yourself a break, can be beneficial. I think this can be true of work, school, or church.
When I suggested you take a break from your religion, Tinros, I meant the religious community. I didn't mean to stop having a moral code or anything.
I'm not a King of Men, anti-religion person. I do think, however, that everything can be gone overboard with and that it's good to have moderation in most things in life. (Except moderation. *rim shot*)
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Sure, if trying to be a disciple is getting hard, the solution is to give up trying. <-- not a serious statement
Tinros, I agree with what Bob said about this guy. It sort of sounds like you wanted a great deal he didn't want to give, and he didn't want to hurt you further but telling you everything. It's not really fair to put that much pressure on him. If someone doesn't want to be there of their own free will and choice, pressuring them will NOT make them care.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Sure, if trying to be a disciple is getting hard, the solution is to give up trying.
Leaving aside the issue of whether or not this was a serious statement, I should observe that at some point people need to decide whether what they're doing is right -- and is working for them -- and I believe that one of the best ways to tell whether a life choice is "right" is to tell whether it's "working." In other words, if trying to be a disciple -- of anything -- is so hard that on balance it brings only harm into your life, perhaps that's a sign that you should consider becoming a disciple of something else.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Frankly, I think it contributes. Much of her pain and bitterness seems to stem to some extent from her perception of other people's relationships with God. A slightly more laissez-faire attitude would probably be more functional.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think it's harder. Most personal theological growth that I've personally seen from people occurs as they switch religions; the search and conversion process itself helps drive that growth. People who grow within their religion generally get really interested in apologia, I've noticed, and I think it's for the same reason.
Belief is largely valueless when it comes to development; it's the search for truth that produces value.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
To be fair, I don't think people are talking about her specific religion or beliefs so much as how she views that religion.
That is, I am sure Tinros could be just as faithful to her religion without taking on the responsibility of worrying about other people's promises to, or covenants with God.
[Edit: slowly typed before the last two posts. Makes more sense in that context. ]
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posted
It's possible to search for an answer to the next question without tossing away the answers you recieved to the last.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: It's possible to search for an answer to the next question without tossing away the answers you recieved to the last.
The danger in that approach, of course, lies in assuming that the last answer you believe you received was absolutely correct, and refusing to consider alternatives even once it inexorably leads you to other, less satisfactory answers as a consequence. The threat posed by any belief, in fact, is that people often wind up having to invent reasons and rationales for other conclusions based on those first flawed answers, and call this "growth."
But, then, I'm a born skeptic.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Sometimes, people walk away from things that are important and difficult and call it freedom. But then, I'm really stubborn.
In this case, I don't believe that this guy is actually violating his religion. In that case, closer study of it would clarify things. I think talking to the youth leader or a pastor about this would be a good idea.
Also (and Tinros forgive me), I think the guy lied to her when he said he didn't want to date anyone until after college, in order to spare her feelings. In that case, the lie was a violation, but dating someone else isn't.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Except that if he also made that promise to God, he's quite specifically violated one of the Ten Commandments in a way that people who say things like "Oh, my stars!" should really, really mind. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yes, the lying was a weenie, crappy thing to do. I don't think he's behaved well; I disagree on the specific violation here.
I've also been told "If I married anyone, I'd marry you." It's a way to reject somebody without actually saying it. In that case, I think he meant it, because in the ensuing half-decade he hasn't dated or married anyone else.
This actually amazes me. Is there a handbook out there, somewhere? How do these holy scumbags all come up with the same lines?
Either way, Tinros is better off without him, because he is not the person he needs to be for her.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Frankly, I think it contributes. Much of her pain and bitterness seems to stem to some extent from her perception of other people's relationships with God. A slightly more laissez-faire attitude would probably be more functional.
I am not sure this is true. Ultimately the bitterness felt by Tinros comes from the feeling of being betrayed herself. Any bitterness felt on behalf of G*d is probably only an indirect way to channel some of her own feelings on the subject.
I know plenty of people who are just as bitter as Tinros regarding a breakup who are not religious at all. These people generally focus their wrath on the new girlfriend.
Tinros, what you are experiencing is perfectly normal for a person your age. All of us have dated someone who is not as into us as we'd like them to be. All of us have grown distant from close friends because we have chosen differnt paths on the jorney of life.
As you grow older you will become wiser in these matters. I just hope you're able to develop a healthy skpeticism instead of all-out cynicism towards this whole dating business. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Tinros, you can't be responsible for what other people do or say. Sometimes they'll lie and sometimes they'll do things you simply don't agree with. And you need to understand that it is unreasonable to hold a person to what they say while they're in a relationship with you, or even right after--once the relationship is OVER, that is.
I've had ex-boyfriends promise me that they'll love me forever, and that no one in the world could ever measure up to me, and bla bla bla... I've said some of those same things as well. I said them because they felt true at the moment, but I'm thankful that they're NOT true. Otherwise, there'd be guys out there pining for a happily married woman--and if I still loved them, I wouldn't be very happy in my relationship now, would I?
Fact is, he didn't marry you. He has to live his own life, and he can't base his decisions on promises he once made to you. The right thing to do is to forget he ever made that promise to you and to move on. I know that's hard to do in high school, it's such an artificial environment--you're pushed together with people you'd otherwise avoid. But it is possible.
I even hesitate to call him a jerk, although he acted like one. His lying was wrong, but I get the impression you were pretty pushy about getting the answers you wanted from him. After all, you said yourself that part of what helped you deal with the breakup was his promise that he wouldn't date anyone else until after high school. You do realize what an unreasonable request that is, don't you? If he chooses not to date, it has to be because he chose it for himself--because he felt it was best for him. It sounds like he chose it because he knew it would make YOU feel better, no matter what he said to the contrary. When we break up with someone, we have to deal with the fact that someday, they'll be dating someone else. I'm not saying you meant to be pushy or manipulative to get his promise--it's probably something he picked up from you without your conscious effort. You'll outgrow that behavior. And hopefully he'll outgrow his jerky behavior.
You don't belong in a covenant that was made between him and God. At all. Whether or not he breaks it is none of your business. Only he is responsible for keeping or breaking that covenant. You can only be responsible for the promises you make. And someday, you'll probably also find yourself in a situation where you need to let yourself break a promise you've made foolishly. And next time you won't make such a promise so readily. (I say this because I wonder if you made a promise to yourself to love Matt forever.)
Best of luck. These times in your life are extremely difficult, but things will get better--and probably in only a few years. Being a teenager can really suck. So learn what you can, and keep telling yourself--this too will pass.
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What I'm fumblingly trying to say is that sometimes the burdens of trying to live up to, and in, the codes of a community can be kind of stressful, and that maybe taking time off for yourself, to give yourself a break, can be beneficial. I think this can be true of work, school, or church.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
