posted
From your links, it seems that the Billings method is a form of the rhythm method. Both are basically timing intercourse to avoid the woman's fertile times. It just seems that the Billings method might add a layer of precision to the generic rhythm method. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
No, they are both forms of natural planning.
The rhythm method (also called the calendar method) generally refers to the attempt to calculate the fertile period based only on the length of the cycle. It is consequently mostly worthless for most women.
The Billings method uses specific physical symptoms to determine the onset of fertility, which removes the guesswork.
I posted those links because too often people try to use the rhythm method to invalidate all natural methods.
It's kind of like saying that since the Pinto was such a disasterously bad car, it proves that all cars should be avoided.
posted
The rhythm method, particularly in conjunction with "the mucus method", as it's referred to in Where There Is No Doctor, can be fairly effective. But the conjunction still has a failure rate around 25%.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Not in the studies done in China, where it was tested on nearly 1000 couples with >99% success rate. Here are some other studies. I provided links for my studies, can you provide links for yours?
posted
As a Martial Arts instructor employed to teach nonaggression and self-discipline, if I were ever discovered to have started a fight, gotteb in trouble with the law, taken drugs, or even engaged in behavior that might *cause* a fight, like taunting someone else or threatening them, I would be immediately dismissed. I would have violated the principles I was supposed to be teaching and it would be idiotic for me to suppose it would be otherwise.
Whether you *agree* with the principle of pre-marital abstinence the teacher was supposed to be teaching is moot. She was hired to teach a particular moral system, and the expectation that she keep her job while blatantly violating that very moral system is ludicrous.
What if she were a civil rights worker caught making blatantly racist comments? Should she still keep her job then? I think much of the anger toward the teacher being fired comes from the fact that they don't consider premarital sex wrong; thus her being fired for premarital sex appears to them as "being fired and having done nothing wrong." Whether you think her pre-marital sex was wrong in and of itself is entirely beside the point here. She was fired for violating the trust of her employers, for violating clear standards she was well aware of at the time of her employment. She was in direct and obvious contradiction of the standards of the community she was serving.
Had I engaged in premarital sex while a student at BYU I would have faced similar consequences, and I knew that going in. I would have been forgiven; no one would have borne me any ill will, but forgiveness does not equal a lack of consequences.
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: Not in the studies done in China, where it was tested on nearly 1000 couples with >99% success rate. Here are some other studies. I provided links for my studies, can you provide links for yours?
--Mel
Since my figure came from a book, that's kind of problematic.
Where There Is No Doctor: Werner, David et. al., p. 285.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
If he didn't draw that number out of a hat, that might have a reference listed in the back, in the bibliography. If he doesn;t have a reference listed, how do you know it is accurate? Also that book is at least ten years old.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Yeah, I just found that book online, and the reference is in chapter 20. The author does not give an actual number, but he gives the method one star out of four, with four being the best at preventing pregnancy. I could find no bibliography either in that chapter or on the site. Perhaps there is one in the physical copy of the book.
Also, the "mucus method" that the author describes is not identical to the Billings method that I linked. There are specific rules that must be followed, and he doesn't mention a few of them.
quote: As a Martial Arts instructor employed to teach nonaggression and self-discipline, if I were ever discovered to have started a fight, gotteb in trouble with the law, taken drugs, or even engaged in behavior that might *cause* a fight, like taunting someone else or threatening them, I would be immediately dismissed. I would have violated the principles I was supposed to be teaching and it would be idiotic for me to suppose it would be otherwise.
What would you do if you found out one of your students was taking drugs, or started a fight, etc?
edit: Let's also stipulate that you had them sign some kind of pledge to not do any of those things, just to make it hew a little closer to the discussion at hand.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
They would be dismissed immediately. They understood and agreed to these rules when they signed up. Of course, with Martial Arts there is the additional concern that you never hand anything potentially dangerous to any *one* potentially dangerous; violent people and drug users are not people I am willing to teach potentially lethal techniques to. I have to take responsibility for what I teach, and that means being selective about who you teach it to. If a student just demonstrates anger-management problems, they may be worked with to help resolve their problem, as martial arts are wonderful for instilling discipline, but will NOT advance, or be taught advanced techniques. And if they, in the end, refuse to work on the problem, they will be dismissed.
I won't teach advanced martial arts to anyone I would feel uncomfortable handing a loaded pistol. I won't even teach *basics* to someone I feel may be potentially dangerous.
Fortuneately, such people aren't commonly drawn to the martial arts, generally lacking the discipline to stick with it, and when they are they usually quit themselves in disgust at how "slow" we're teaching things, and how they aren't learning the "cool stuff". They don't have the discipline to learn the fundamentals first.
There are exceptions to this, of course, but they're fortunately few and far between. When was the last time you heard of someone being murdered by a Black Belt using his hand-to-hand techniques?
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
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(Geez, my typing is so bad I keep typing ramenylass and thinking about noodles.)
Anyway, first: How are more people affected by consensual sex between adults?
And second: Why do so many Christians feel (I hesitate to say most)that sexual purity is more fundamental than forgiveness?
And to bring this back to the thread topic, while I don't think that the school was encouraging anybody to have an abortion, firing this woman certainly doesn't encourage anyone in a similar situation to continue the pregnancy.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
As a Christian I might answer the second question: I don't feel sexual purity is more fundamental than forgiveness. They're just two different fundamentals. Forgiveness is something we receive from God, and it's something we should offer each other. Forgiving each other means we refuse to retain hard feelings toward a person or wish them harm. It doesn't mean the person's wrong actions are now excusable, and it doesn't mean they can escape the consequences of their actions. For example, God may have forgiven her but he hasn't excused her from the consequences of her actions - she still got pregnant. And the school officials may forgive her and love her, and hope for the best for her, but that doesn't mean she will escape the consequences of breaking the terms of her employment.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: Yeah, I just found that book online, and the reference is in chapter 20. The author does not give an actual number, but he gives the method one star out of four, with four being the best at preventing pregnancy. I could find no bibliography either in that chapter or on the site. Perhaps there is one in the physical copy of the book.
Also, the "mucus method" that the author describes is not identical to the Billings method that I linked. There are specific rules that must be followed, and he doesn't mention a few of them.
--Mel
My edition does list numbers, albeit symbolically on a table. (1994, new revised English 2nd ed.) The table lists "of each twenty women using this method"... "on the average, this many are likely to get pregnant" (Rhythm, 7; Mucus, 6; Combined, 5, or 75% efficacy.)
Granted, the Billings method may be more effective, perhaps much more so. But I would caution that participants in a lab study are naturally more likely to accurately follow all necessary steps in using any form of birth control.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I understand what you are saying, but I think forgiveness is bigger than that. To forgive a debt, for example, means that you don't have to pay it.
Back to the stone throwing example in the Gospels, the woman caught in the act of adultery did not suffer the consequences of her act. Clearly, she should have been stoned.
BTW, KarlEd, I am very interested to hear your take on this story. I think it has been misinterpreted, too. Possibly in different ways?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Sorry. Y'know how what you're thinking is clear in your mind, but not necessarily in your text?...
I presume WTIND is citing a study, but its bibliography is somewhat lacking. It's more of a "beyond first aid" handbook than an extended discussion of any particular subject, including birth control.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: posted November 29, 2005 05:34 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, first: How are more people affected by consensual sex between adults?
But that is still going to affect only the people directly involved (family, friends), not the community at large.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And second: Why do so many Christians feel (I hesitate to say most)that sexual purity is more fundamental than forgiveness? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't. I'd say the opposite.
I'm glad. Me, too. It seemed like the situation that started this thread indicated otherwise.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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