quote: In fact, I felt the guys my age were much more likely to be manipulative and pushy than the older men, so I feel it's unfair to automatically assume that an older person sleeping with a younger person is a predator.
No, it's not. Not even a LITTLE unfair.
Can't you recognize that not all cases must be predatory? My mother was nineteen and my father was twenty-seven when they got engaged. That was over thirty years ago and they're still married. My father is not a predator and my mother is not a victim.
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As I've said, it's in the gray area. At least your mother was above the legal age of consent. And how long was their engagement? (Not that it's my business.)
I don't think Tom is talking about any older man. I think we're talking about a substantially older man, percentage-wise, with a teenage girl. Your mother was barely a teenager. And that's when they got engaged. I won't presume to speculate about when they started having sex, but I hope you can see the point that the relationship you're describing is different from the one's we're talking about. It is barely even relevant.
Also, thirty years ago, it was considered more natural for the balance of power in a relationship to favor the man.
But ultimately, as I've noted before, we're talking about a gray area; there is a line in there somewhere, and society has chosen to put it at eighteen (often with caveats regarding the age-difference of the people involved).
We won't be able to draw a line that isn't arbitrary, but I will stick to my argument that a substantially older man or woman sexually involved with a teenager is an unhealthy situation, and more than likely a predatory one.
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Ic, my mom was twenty when they got married. Does it make a difference that my dad was my mom's RA?
I certainly wasn't comparing my parents to the news story. What the teacher did was wrong. I'm just presenting a counterexample to (what I think) are some overzealous claims in this thread.
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I think there is a fundamental difference between how women view sexuality and how men view it. I've often seen that teenage boys view sexual partners (or conquests would probably be a more appropriate terms) much like baseball cards: the collect them and brag about them to their friends, and thus, managing to catch an older woman would be seen as the grand prize, much like [insert name of famous baseball player here] rookie card would be.
I think there is much truth to the opinion that male teenagers having sexual relations with an older woman are far less likely to feel like a victim than in situations where the gender roles were reversed.
However, this still doesn't make it morally acceptable.
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quote: I'm sure you do feel okay about it, treason, but I wonder why your twenty-four year old boyfriend felt more comfortable dating and bedding a child barely more than half his own age than finding a date among his peers.
I think you are giving him motives that he may simply not have had. I don't think he was more comfortable dating me than an older woman. We met, fell in lust with each other, fell emotionally for each other and that's it. Why must you assume it's because he wanted a "child"? It's possible he just wanted me.
I'm not saying the laws should be changed. I just think it would be nice if they were more flexible to take into account the circumstances. I just don't think the younger person is always a victim.
Did you share the joy of your relationship at 15 with your parents? If so, what was their reaction, if not, why not?
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quote:Or, only if you consider sex below the age of consent with a person in a position of influence and responsibility inherently harmful.
See, I think the second part is more important than the first part.
If a college professor sleeps with one of his students, it's legal, but still an abuse of power. It's using your influence to get sex that I have a problem with.
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The other thing is that age of consent is very much arbitrary. In Hawaii it's 14, in Mississippi it's 16. I don't like the idea of something this serious being different state to state, although I know that's the best way to do it,
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The final thing is this: guys and girls are different. This is a case where acknowledging that fact might help.
I had a lot of female friends that lost their virginity at that age, most of them to their boyfriends. Most of these boyfriends were Seniors (18 and 14). From the stories the girls told me at the time and what I now know, I think about 5 of these cases could legitimately be not just statutory, but actual rape had the girls known enough about it. Just instances where the guys had pushed more than the girls were willing, and then once it was done the girls claimed they were so happy to get it over with, they really loved what's-his-name, and they were gonna be together forever -- to cover up their shame (IMO).
I'm not saying this was widespread, or even typical, but it happened a lot more often than anyone would care to remember.
Guys, for the most part, are a mass of raging hormones wrapped in a skin covering. Some control it better than others, but a lot of them spend the years from 14-26 trying desperately to sleep with any girls who'll let them.
That's why it's not as serious, to me, when the guy is underage and the girl isn't. If you take advantage of an underage guy, you're likely giving him what he was trying to get anyway. I'm not nominating you for teacher of the year, because it's a gross abuse of power. But I think she should be fired, not prosecuted.
If you take advantage of a girl in this fashion, you'll likely do serious, lasting psychological damage.
I think both cases are bad, just one is "wrecked my car" bad and one is "accidentally shot someone" bad.
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Boys can be victims of rape, though. And they too can have lasting psychological damage from it.
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OK, I'll admit that I have not read this entire thread (I have read both articles and watch the video clip on the first one). I just couldn't keep reading that many of you, some of you minors, condoned her behavior. While I agree that a nine year age difference is not a big deal when you are talking about a 30 year old with a 21 year old or even 18 and 27, sex between a 14 and a 25 year old is not just illegal, it is immoral.
Of course young boys fantasize about some of their prettier teachers but that doesn't make it ok for those teachers to have sex with them just because they are young and pretty.
In the artical, the ex-husband says she was being treated for mental problems before the arrest, and that seems reasonable to me. I teach middle schoolers and the thought of having sex with any student is disgusting. You'd have to be nuts, period!
And it is not just the age difference that was disgusting. That teacher, by occupation, is a dominant power over the student, so anything she does is authoritarian. You can say the boy had a choice and he certainly does but when someone with power over you, that you like, asks you to do something, illegal or not, you are more apt to do it. It shows weakness on the part of the boy. This is not a "boys will be boys" thing either. She is sick and used her power inappropriately.
And just for the record, I think they should have thrown the book at her. This probation thing would never have happened with a man! Ugh!
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I hate the characterization of guys here. Guys don't care when they are being used? They don't care about the person or thing they are having sex with, as long as it is pretty? It is more important that your first sex partner be hot than she be sane?
I don't believe any of the above. I know there are hormones at work, but triumphing hormones at the expense of self-respect will not make any person happy.
She was using him. That has to hurt - if it doesn't now, it will when he realizes it.
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Did you share the joy of your relationship at 15 with your parents? If so, what was their reaction, if not, why not?
A relationship doesn't require the parents' permission to be okay.
I'm not saying that this particular relationship was or wasn't okay. I think fifteen is too young for sex, honestly. I'm just saying that parents disapproving of it doesn't make it wrong.
posted
Hmm. I supp[ose I had the good fortune never to meet any of those slavering, selfish, slave-to-their-raging-hormones beasts you describe. Perhaps it was because those guys go for the boobies, or perhaps it is an unfair generalization to describe all boys between 16 and 25 as manipulative rapists. Maybe it's just me, but I knew many boys who were willing to outrageous things for me, like offering to hurt people for me and stuff. Maybe I attract submissive males. I really don't know.
I will say that hormones rage in both directions. Pain is an issue, but once that is out of the way, I think the pleasure-seeking requires the females to be a bit more manipulative. Same impulses, though. Femmes just have to be wilier.
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If they raise the age of consent to 21, a whole lot of perfectly innocent people would suddenly be rapists and sexual predators. Funny, isn't it, how a legal fiction can turn into a moral reality in the eyes of some.
I've met twenty-somethings who have all the maturity and worldliness of children. And I've met teens who might just as well be adults.
An 18 year old boy was elected mayor of a city. The image that brings to mind is very different from the image I got when I saw a video clip of the young mayor in action.
The law is supposed to be objective, yes. But that doesn't mean it should ignore all context and be applied without brains.
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quote:Oh. Well, how will you know when it is one of those cases?
Ummm, when the guy has sex forced on him.
And katharina, I don't know if you're directing that solely at me (I don't think you were) but I was careful not to characterize all guys. I'm not qualified to speak for any guys other than me.
What I did do was provide anecdotal evidence from my own high school experience. I don't think it's a stretch to say that a guy who has sex with his teacher more than once would fall into the hormonally charged category. Guys, no matter the hormones involved, can always say no. I was one of those guys, and I got made fun of for it. It didn't really bother me then, and it doesn't now, but the point is that we're not all slaves to our hormones. But anyone who wasn't a teenage boy has no idea how tortuous that experience can be.
I think if the teacher'd picked a student with morals she'd have been rebuffed. Girls know when guys want them, let's be real. She probably took advantage of this guy because he made it obvious that he would welcome being taken advantage of.
If I had a car, and a girl used me to get a ride to school when all I wanted was to pull up at school with a pretty girl in the car, I don't know whether I would care that I was being taken advantage of. After all, I'm using her right back.
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Maybe my experience is misleading, but in every relationship I've ever seen where a mid-twenties+ guy was dating a high-school girl (I never saw the reverse), the guy was a sleazy loser looking for a girl who, if he waited eight years for her to be the age he was when he started dating her, would be totally out of his "weight-class", as it were.
I've heard that from both guys and girls who have even been in such relationships.
Yes, there are exceptions. There are exceptions to pretty much every rule in the world. But, you know, pretty much everyone knows about these thoughts, too. There isn't a guy in America who doesn't know, "Hey, this girl is really young for me," and the reverse as well. That's why it's not unfair to make assumptions, because a) they're usually right, and b) the parties invite such assumptions.
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Since you brought it up, I'll bring up the most obvious response.
My first question normally would be, "Would you make that same choice again?" but apparently you would, so I'll skip that one.
What would be your reaction if you learned your fifteen-year-old daughter were having sex with a twenty-four year old man?
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Bob, My mom thought he was 18 and his parents thought I was 18. When my mom found out she was pretty upset. Nor do I blame her. To answer Rakeesh's question at the same time, If I had a 15 year old daughter and found out she was sleeping with a 24 year old man I would be livid. I would want to kill that guy.
That just makes sense because I wouldn't be the one in the relationship. I wouldn't know that my daughter was really ok. From the outside, I could apply all sorts of horrible motives to the boy.
That still does not make it a wrong or bad relationship in this case. I am left with no awful memories, no psychological damage, no pain from this. Only I can judge now if this has hurt me and it has not.
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Hmmm, I have a story here. As most of you know, I went to a community college when I was a teen. The guys I hung out with, from both class and the tutoring center (with some overlap) were all 21-22. A more gorgeous collection of science geeks would have been hard to find, and I admit I did my share of looking at several of them, though none did any looking at me. I was 16.
In that group from calculus and physics, was a 22 year old guy, dating a 16 year old (not me) and a 20 year old guy, dating a 29 year old.
The latter relationship lasted much, much longer than the former. Not terribly surprising. However even the 16/22 relationship lasted at least a year and a half. Her her parents were completely approving of the relationship. We teased him, when he went to her junior prom. But even with the teasing, he took it with integrity as it were. Not in a sheepish ashamed manner, but in the way of "I love this woman, and I want to be with her, even if it creates a socially awkward circumstance for me."
I admit when I first found out he was dating someone my age I did a double take. But, we were (and still are) friends, so it didn't seem incomprehensible. And seeing them interact, it was a relationship of equals in many ways.
They met at a mutual friend's party and he didn't know how old she was to begin with. She was one of the youngest at the party, but he didn't know it, and the general age range was 18 and up. Knowing that part of his social scene, it's entirely possible he didn't know how old she was when he first slept with her. I don't know for sure, it wouldn't surprise me either way. At the time they met they were in a situation as social equals and neither were virgins.
Either way it brings up an interesting point. In a socially egalitarian situation are you obligated to card, before you sleep with someone? Looking at her physically, you would have guessed her to be anywhere from 18-23. 16 would have been an extremely young guess. Seeing them as a couple, you wouldn't have guessed the age difference either.
He genuinely loved her as a person, as a woman. He may have had her on a bit of a pedestal, but it wasn't a pedophillic pedestal, more of a pedestal of ideals and character. He thought she was "the one", though anything permanent was only in the hazy distance. In the moral code of that social circle, his intentions were honest, and her parents recognized it. He was a good guy with direction and a future, and would have been a good socioeconomic match for their daughter.
In the end, she broke up with him because she felt she wasn't ready for a long term relationshp and he suffered a pretty badly broken heart. I don't think he even misjudged her maturity level. I think she had the maturity to see that she didn't want a long term relationship at that moment and broke it off, before he could have been hurt even more.
In the case of the guy with the "older woman" I think there were more people concerned and upset on the guy's behalf, about the woman taking advantage of him because she had a 6 year old child, and was somewhat involved with another guy. In the end though she did extricate herself from the other guy (not the kid's father)and the relationship lasted for 4 years to my knowledge, before I lost track of them.
posted
Interestingly, as a result, of those experiences *I* thought I would end up with an older guy. I was the baby in all of my college classes, since I was three years ahead of my age. And most of the guys I hung out with were older than me. Steve and I are only 6 months apart in age. However, regardless of my own age, no guy younger than 21 has ever interested me. I do think there is a bit of a maturity switch that does flip in many guys heads around 21-22.
posted
Yeah, my brother-in-law dated a 16 year old senior when he was... in college, anyway. I don't remember the exact age difference, but it was 5 or 6 years. He was serving coffee at the church cookie chat after the services, and the girl's mother was the one who told her to 'check out the cute guy'. He looked younger than his age, and still has a very boyish appearance.
They dated very seriously for quite a while. She graduated hs and went to college where he was. I think the major appeal for her was having the cache of an 'older guy' to look out for her. He loved her, but she wasn't in his league in attractiveness or brains. She dropped hints about going to look for rings and when he did it, she dropped him like a hot rock for someone closer to her own age.
And HE was made out like the bad guy, simply because he was older. It is completely possible to be a manipulative, psycho beeyotch even when one is under legal majority. Ron and I met her several times and neither one of us could stand her, though I sort of stood up for her with the excuses "she's young" and the hopeful prophecy "She'll mature." Oy.
My poor brother-in-law was very honest, earnest and religiously devout. He ended up in a bit of controversy (which she stirred up) at the church they had been attending near the college as well as the one their parents attended here. Very nasty, and very sad.
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From 17 to 22 I worked in a small, relatively slow fast food place. Because it was so slow, my coworkers and I all got to know each other pretty well, and quite a bit of dating went on. When I was 17 I went out with a woman who was 23 or so. It was a disaster that lasted precisely one date (who knew that she wouldn't be fascinated to hear all about Norse myth? Certainly not 17 year old me. 17 year old me). I wasn't victimized, although my feelings were hurt when I found out what a horrible time she'd been having, on toward the end of the date.
When he was 22 a friend of mine who also worked there dated a 16 year old co-worker. She was definitely the one with the power in the relationship. She was far more experienced with men than he was with women, was probably of a similar level of maturity to him, pretty much ran the show, and eventually ended it. Looking back at it, I don't feel that she was in any way a vicitm in that relationship.
Because it was an atmosphere in which people in the 16-25 age range worked closely together, doing the same jobs, age differences kind of melted away into insignificance for us. Instead, people kind of self sorted into social groups by maturity level.
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quote:To answer Rakeesh's question at the same time, If I had a 15 year old daughter and found out she was sleeping with a 24 year old man I would be livid. I would want to kill that guy.
Why would you be livid? I'll do a bit of asked-and-answered here, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but you'd be livid because you know based on your greater experience of the world in general and relationships in general, from your own experience in both and your observations, that the formula 15yr.+24yr.+romantic relationship=BAD. You would be livid because you know that in most cases, those sorts of guys (or girls if they're the older party) are generally abusive, manipulative, predatory personalities.
One does not have to be a date-raping handcuff-loving criminal to be abusive, manipulative, and predatory, either.
And chances are, you'd be right to be livid. I think you'd be livid because it says something about the 24 year old that they're even looking for a relationship with someone still in middle-school. I mean, it's just a difference in how your radar is working-and where one keeps that radar set says a lot. The same applies even if the older party didn't know how old the other one was, and later finds out.
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Treason, your reaction is not necessarily typical of that experience. In my case, I was 15, he was 28. My parents didn't know -- they trusted him as a guardian over me, not as a sex partner -- it was definitely predatory. I often wonder what my life would have been like if I'd never met him, because knowing him made such a huge impact I'm not sure I'd even recognise my life without those memories. Were they 100% bad? No. I gained some very positive things from our relationship -- the non-sexual part. But there are memories and attitudes about sex and relationships directly connected to my relationship with him that I think I've only been healed of in the past 5 years. I'm 37.
I wasn't the last, though I think he stopped preying on young girls before he hit forty. He died last year, and there's a part of me that is glad. Very glad.
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It's somewhat of a family tradition in our family for spouses to be very different in age. My grandmother was 10 years older than my grandfather, and my brother is 10 years younger than his wife, to give 2 examples. In both cases they're perfect for each other, and I can't imagine either of them marrying anyone else.
Definitely teachers shouldn't be in relationships with their students, nor bosses with their employees. Any relationship of power has the potential of being abused. And nobody should be in a serious relationship before they're mature enough to make permanent lifelong decisions, either. Of course I think there should be no question of sex before marriage in any case.
But given those things, it seems to me that ages don't matter. Each person is different, and if two people are right for each other, age is one of the least important factors (such as culture, religion, worldview, education, interests, approach to finances or childrearing) that can cause potential difficulties in a marriage. I never heard of any problem due to age difference arising in any of the marriages between people of very different ages in my family. Plenty of disagreements over other things have had to be worked out, :-) but nothing that seems age-related.
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Sometimes age is irrelevant, I agree with that. My parents had a huge age difference. When they married, my mother was 19 and my father was 30. Both had been married before, and in some ways my mother had significant power in the relationship. It ended up being abusive, yes, but it was my mother who forced the issue of marriage.
Me, I was sheltered. Mostly by myself as opposed to my family, but still sheltered. I was always much more comfortable with the younger men. My husband is younger than me, by less than two years, but was much more socially savvy than me when we met. Power was never really an issue. I relied on his judgment a lot, but I also knew he would move heaven and earth to please me. I tried not to abuse that knowledge.
In any case, age and maturity are not always equivalent.
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The thing that stinks is that, legally, there's not a better way to determine maturity than age. That's why we have an age of consent, an age to drive, vote, and drink (in that order). So it makes it difficult to make the necessary allowances on a case-by-case basis. Not that any are necessary in this case.
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I saw yet another link on world net daily about a teacher sleeping with her student.
Does anybody else think that there are some enterprising young students out there making some false accusations because of all of the recent news stories on this subject?
I just don't believe that this is THAT common.
And to comment on the current thread of conversation... yes, there may be instances where a relationship actually is healthy between a young teenage girl and an older man--but they're rare. The law is there to protect the other 99.9% of children in the bad sort of relationships. Anyway, if an older man REALLY loves the younger girl for who she is rather than her age, then he should love her enough to let her GROW UP and date other boys without adding the complications of a relationship with an older MAN.
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quote:That just makes sense because I wouldn't be the one in the relationship. I wouldn't know that my daughter was really ok. From the outside, I could apply all sorts of horrible motives to the boy.
That still does not make it a wrong or bad relationship in this case.
That's my answer. I am not saying it's always great or even usually great. Heck I'm not saying it's great 50% of the time! All I was saying was that in some cases, there is no victim and the laws should take that into account.
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quote: I just don't believe that this is THAT common.
I'm afraid it is getting more common. As every other barrier prohibiting extramarital sex is falling, some people never learn how to control themselves. Boundaries are being pushed further and further back, and some people don't even know where the boundaries are anymore. They might SAY they know; if you talked to them they'd say they knew sex with a student was wrong; but when the time comes to control their hormones, if they've never done it before, they'll have a hard time convincing themselves that this time it really matters.
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I think it is most definitely unfair to assume someone is being predatory simply because they have a relationship with a much younger person. However, it should be noted that, at least as far as I know, the law does not ban such relationships. It bans sex in those relationships, and related acts, but it doesn't ban relationships themselves. I don't think it an unreasonable request to demand that you resist having sex with someone for a period of time, for the good of that person - and your inability to do so could probably be taken as a fair sign that either your motives may not be pure or you are dangerously lacking in self-restraint.
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I had a friend in highschool who was living with a 32 year old guy when she was only 16. She would've done it whether her mother was okay with it or not. But I have to say it was all very weird, all things considered. She was fine with it. Her mother MUST'VE known, and at least refrained from calling the authorities.
This was while we were students in Catholic school by the way.
Just weird.
Anyway, she was obviously fine and managed her life okay.
I had another friend who was getting piano and sex instructions at the age of 14 or 15 from her teacher. She was also fine with it.
I know that her parents NEVER knew about it and they would most definitely have had the guy arrested. But hey, she was fine with it and is a seemingly well-adjusted adult today, so what's the big deal, eh?
To me, the big deal is that under the age of consent in whatever part of the world one lives in, you are still your parents responsibility, AND, the relationship is NEVER equal if only for the simple reason that the adult is breaking a law and the child is not, even when both of them view it as "healthy" and "consensual."
While it might be nice to think that there should be individual treatment by the law in such cases, that's not how laws work. That's how courts work. It's just not credible to say that the 15 year old ISN'T a victim because she testifies that she isn't.
The only way I can possibly see this working where it wouldn't just throw the whole legal system into a paralytic state would be some sort of parental consent. If the couple were able to get signed parental consent forms to have a sexual relationship, then I could see where the law would, perhaps, have a clause to essentially look the other way.
But there already is such a clause. It's called parental consent for underage marriage. And what'd be so wrong with that? I mean, if this couple is so ready to act like adults, why don't they get married, and be up front about it and have the parents' blessing?
So, short of getting the parents consent to marriage (or the teen becoming an emancipated minor), I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that people should just get arrested and have their day in court. If the judge becomes convinced (somehow) that a person below the legal age of consent actually should be treated as a consenting adult, then I'm happy to not call the defendant a rapist.
Short of that, however, it's a crime and one that I think should be punished.
Ultimately, I'd only have one further thing to point out to the "oh so adult" 15 year olds involved in these relationships. Have you ever once stopped to think of the consequences to your partner should the two of you get caught? It's not you who will go to jail, or be treated for the rest of your life as a sex offender. It is the "partner" you supposedly care so much about.
Think on this. That person knows that they could face a long jail sentence and a life-time label as a sex offender. This includes the likelihood of having to register with local law enforcement every time he moves ANYWHERE. And that means being on a publicly available list that is posted on the internet and searchable by anyone. That will follow that person pretty much forever.
In view of that risk, why would a sane and "normal" adult pursue such a relationship? The consequences for his young partner are also fairly devastating should the relationship come to light. But he isn't thinking about that. The consequences for his future are devastating but he isn't thinking about that.
It'd be wonderful if in all (or even most) of these cases the reason for the continued behavior is something romantic like "love conquers all" or "love knows no boundaries." But, really, it's most probably that the person has a problem. They are attracted to very young women, or they are emotionally immature, or they feel the need to mold a person to their specifications rather than work at a relationship between equal partners, or they only get excited if there's an element of danger involved. The list is long and sad.
Mixed in there is a vanishingly small minority of cases where the young person is truly adult enough, and the partnership between the people is "healthy" despite one of them being legally still a child. How could ANYONE expect the law to respect that tiny (and perhaps even non-existent) possibility?
And I'll ask one final question. Why couldn't he wait for you? If this was really about love, and not sex, 3 years is not long to wait. Or, if the two of you couldn't wait, why not be up front and ask your parents for their consent to marry?
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: But there already is such a clause. It's called parental consent for underage marriage. And what'd be so wrong with that? I mean, if this couple is so ready to act like adults, why don't they get married, and be up front about it and have the parents' blessing?
Um. Just because someone wants to engage in a sexual relationship, that doesn't necessarily mean that the two are ready to be married.
I don't subscribe to that attitude myself, but I don't see it as being an issue in others. If people want to have sex in unmarried relationships, heck, even if people want to have casual sex, as long as they're safe and responsible about it, I don't think it's a problem.
Again, as I said, I'm not a fan of fifteen-year-olds having sex. I just don't think the choice should be "either don't do it, or get married."
Also, just for another underage/legal age dating story, my brother's girlfriend of eight months is fifteen (unless she's turned sixteen by now; she was fifteen over the summer). He's a freshman in college who comes home to visit her every weekend, sends her flowers, and is generally as "in love" with her as an eighteen-year-old boy can be. She, on the other hand, manipulates him, yells at him, curses at him, involves him in her abusive family problems, and tries to make him jealous at every turn by telling him about how she goes out to dinner wiith all these "hot guys." He puts up with it because he honestly cares about her (why, I don't know), and he treats her very, very well. As far as I know, they're not having sex, but I would be absolutely horrified if they did, and my little brother was subsequently labeled a sexual predator.
Also, my parents are ten years apart. And I believe my father was my mother's boss when they met. However, there's never been a power issue between them. My father is absolutely devoted to my mother, which has resulted in me being subjected to him going on and on about how wonderful and smart and beautiful she is whenever he gets the chance. My parents are awesome business partners, too.
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Bob- I never wanted to marry him, we weren't in love! We cared for each other, yes. Even at 15 I knew better than to think I was in love with him. What would be the point in waiting when we didn't love each other?
My whole point was, at the beginning, that these things should be looked at on a case by case basis. I don't think you should just let someone go who commits this crime but I believe the sentencing should be made greater or worse depending on the case. I just think it's silly to have a 19 year old on the "sexual predators in your neighborhood" website for sleeping with a 17 year old who was his girlfriend. Or for that matter, a 24 year old who dated a 15 year old who was happy and not at all harmed. I wouldn't have liked to see him go to jail as a rapist, when I most certainly was never raped.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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pre-marital sex, or more appropriately, sex without commitment, didn't used to be even a small problem for me, let alone a big problem for me. That attitude has changed slightly because I have started to see the damage to people from it. And I'm convinced that sexual activity "too early" (whenever THAT is for the individual) is often a BIG deal.
I think adults are responsible for their own behavior, though, and so I don't even give sex between consenting adults a second thought. I mean, it's nobody's business unless they are married or were otherwise already in a committed relationship, and so hurt those they supposedly love most. But barring that, it's not an issue.
And assuming they act responsibly in terms of pregnancy and disease, it's not an issue.
Your brother's abuser, oops, I mean girlfriend...um, no, I mean abuser, is an extreme example of what I'm talking about. Suppose she gets angry or jealous. Is she enough of a monster to accuse him of having sex with her? He doesn't necessarily even HAVE to engage in illegal activity to be in a huge amount of trouble. And I'm betting that having to register as a sex offender while going to college is no fun either.
But that's an extreme example. That's OBVIOUSLY not a loving relationship. The girl doesn't care about him. She's counting coup with her friends in school by having a high-status boy to dangle. Well, probably that's what it's about.
My question is for the adult relationships formed by teens that involve zero risk to them (supposedly) and for which their lovers face a lifetime of the new scarlet letter. I have had a girlfriend who put me into a situation where I could be arrested. I was a dope and went along with it and it and luckily nothing happened. But still, I was old enough at the time to make my own decisions. I have since learned enough to know that our relationship was unequal, and I learned pretty soon after that incident that she didn't actually love me. She had intellectualized the relationship into some sort of learning experience for me. But I still thought of it as love. I was stupid.
And I've since learned more about love and, I think, finally know what real love in a committed relationship is. And it's not putting your lover in danger of being arrested...usually.
Now, I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who, as an adult, has an underage girlfriend or boyfriend. If it's all about casual sex and enjoyment of each other's bodies -- albeit in a "mature" and "responsible" way, I still have to ask -- where's the level of caring that at least says "hey lover, I enjoy the sex, but I really don't want to see you arrested and labeled for life just 'cuz our parts line up well."
If its about love (which is almost always what people say when engaged in these relationships), where's the caring "committment" to that other person enough to make sure you aren't going to be CAUSE of much pain and suffering in their life? Calling the law an ass in this case isn't going to stop the person from having to register as a sex offender. Maybe a judge would be lenient, but maybe he'll get the judge who isn't. Or they might live in a state with minimum sentencing guidelines. Will his young lover come to his rescue? Sure, maybe, if her parents let her, and the court agrees to hear testimony from a minor. But how many 15 year olds are likely to standup under even a mild cross examination? She could scream out her "adult" love for her adult lover and then what? Explain how she's doing in Algebra and when her braces will come off? Or perhaps the judge will simply ask her opinion of basic things that most adults have to struggle with daily and she'll show just how adult she is by not having a job, a check book, a debit card, or having to budget for all of her own expenses and so on, ad nauseum.
I've known lots of teens (including myself) who thought they were more adult than they really were. I've known not a single one who thought the opposite. It just goes with the territory to FEEL adult, and feel ready (for sex or whatever) and feel like the world is all askew in making you wait.
But what, really, is an adult reaction to the laws in these cases? Knowing that the consequences are severe, wouldn't an adult reaction be to take steps to avoid those consequences, no matter how much it "hurt" in terms of aching for the arms of that other person? It's not like they COULDN'T do something about it. I mean, they SAY they are truly in love, so why not go the marriage route.
But, sure since we know it's all about the great sex and NOT having a committed relationship, why doesn't the teen become an emancipated minor so she can have sex with her lover without putting him in jeopardy?
Could it be that she (or he) isn't thinking about the dangers to the other person? I submit that's probably the most frequent case. Teens don't worry much about responsibility as a general rule. That's in part because they aren't responsible. In this type of case, the child isn't the one facing jail or a lifelong label as a sex offender (and all the cr@p that goes along with that). It's their adult "partner."
And that's "okay" in the sense that the law doesn't expect a teen to be responsible for the adult's choices.
Ipso facto, the law doesn't respect the teen's opinion about the healthy nature of the relationship either.
In that context, what should a truly loving person do?
In that context, what would an adult do?
In that context, what do the two lovers do?
It's all so melodramatic, and tragic, and romantic. But is it an adult reaction to the truths of the situation?
So, to bring me completely full circle back to the beginning of this post, here's the small adjustment I would make to the attitude of anything between consenting adults is okay approach I have always taken. And that is:
Love and commitment are awesome and it's great to have that mutual feeling expressed in ALL facets of a relationship. Sex is a part of that, but by no means primary.
Sex is great, feels great, and should be engaged in freely. And it deserves to be treated with respect, as do the humans engaging in it.
I've known lots of people who have wonderful serial monogamous sexually active relationships. It works well for them. And it's probably healthier by a long shot than marriage without committment would ever have been. A LONG shot.
The ones I know are acting in an adult and responsible fashion, and I even see a degree of interpersonal caring there that is a joy to them and their friends and family. Even if the relationships don't end in marriage, they appear to be joyous and healthy. And so, who's complaining. Certainly not me!
But, is that EVER what is going on when a teen and an older person hook up? Is the teen so concerned about his/her lover that they do them the most basic favor and do what they can to keep that person out of serious, life-destroying legal trouble? Nope.
Is the adult stopping to consider the warping effect the news of this relationship would have on other relationships of their lover among his/her peers? Nope.
Getting back to the case that started this thread, I do think the greater sin here is abuse of authority, not the sex per se. But I keep remembering that silly woman who had a baby by her student a few years ago. They're married now. They say they love each other. Uh huh. Imagine their lives if they'd waited. They could freely make a fresh start NOW, and start making babies if they wanted them. And it'd be pretty much okay. At the very least, the law would be fine with it. Instead, they are starting life with (I think two) children, no prospects for a job in a position that she's actually trained for, and he's freakin' famous too in his community. Maybe they could go into porn and make a pile of money. I don't know. But it seems like if they actually wanted a life together and were concerned about each other and the children they are going to raise, they might've waited a couple of years.
Bottom line, to me, is that I have no sympathy for the adult partner and I have little respect for the teens' assertions of adult behavior. I'm shocked to see that I agree with Tres here. The very fact that they would engage in these behaviors proves that they aren't loving partners, but are "something else."
I extend that to both parties, the adult and the teen.
This ain't love. It's sex and "damn the consequences."
Sure, the rest of the world has it wrong, and they are that rare exception of a couple that truly does love each other.
Then prove it. Get married.
Or, they are the rare exception who can treat sex responsibly. Then prove THAT and wait until neither party faces such devastating consequences. THAT would be a demonstration of responsibilty.
This is just a demonstration of not being able to "stop oneself" from the overpowering influence of lust, um, I mean romantic love.
note to add:
By the way, I do know of men who got the same sentence that this woman got. In one case I know of, the girl was a runaway and had had more sex partners than she could count. She was VERY experienced, and world wise. She took up residence in a man's house because she needed a place to stay. One thing led to another. They had sex. Later, when she became a "problem" and he tried to get her out of his house, she went to the police and claimed he had drugged her (he didn't, they were "lovers"). But she was underage anyway, so he was "allowed" to plead to that and became a registered sex offender.
He is literally a sweet person. He was extremely lonely and vulnerable. He was also an idiot. Now, he's in love with a woman outside this country. He can't go there to be with her. The other country's laws bar him from immigrating because he's a registered sex offender.
My heart just aches for him. He truly does love this woman. But he can't move her to the states because his earning potential is severely limited due to having to disclose this felony on his record. There are just some places that will not hire him. She makes money where she lives, but he can't move there.
All because he had no sense, and was having great sex with someone who, ultimately, was just using him.
And because he ignored the applicable laws, of course.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:My whole point was, at the beginning, that these things should be looked at on a case by case basis. I don't think you should just let someone go who commits this crime but I believe the sentencing should be made greater or worse depending on the case. I just think it's silly to have a 19 year old on the "sexual predators in your neighborhood" website for sleeping with a 17 year old who was his girlfriend. Or for that matter, a 24 year old who dated a 15 year old who was happy and not at all harmed. I wouldn't have liked to see him go to jail as a rapist, when I most certainly was never raped.
But, the point isn't what you would've liked, but what the applicable laws were, and are.
Rarely does breaking the law result in changing it. Unless you were going to challenge it up to the Supreme Court level and this was all just a conscious decision to set up a test case, then your caring relationship was pretty unequal. You would go on with life no problem if you two had been caught and the police got involved.
He would be living with that label forever.
Seems stupid of him, and selfish of you, frankly.
But of course, nobody was thinking of that. It was just good fun and "nobody got hurt." Or if the law did get involved, it would've been society's fault for ruining his life, not your conscious decision to just break the law anyway.
I'm sorry, but he was an idiot to put himself at such risk. And I have to ask why he would do it.
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That's a point I hadn't thought of at all, the point of "what would happen" if either party were caught. Excellent point, very, very good. Honestly I was convinced before, but I don't see how anyone can regard the matter as anything but settled now.
What kind of relationship is it when one party is willing to put the other party that they "love" at risk of lifetime shame and possible jailtime? That's not adult romantic love at all, to my mind.
I think that ultimately my biggest problem with this issue is that despite a host of very reasonable "cons", people in such relationships almost always let the, "It makes me feel good, which means the law is wrong, so I should get to do it, " argument win the day.
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Hey, I'm convinced as well. Shall I jump on the Bob Bandwagon?
But then, to be honest, I wasn't ever convinced that underage sex was a good idea. My personal unwilling experience was that it was very, very, very, very bad and it scarred me. (Possibly for life, but then, since my life ain't over yet, I won't know for sure for a while yet.)
And yeah, I know I'm biased.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
A former coworker lives with the sex offender label. He was 19, his girlfriend was 17, and it was entirely consensual but her parents found out and he was arrested. The parents later tried to drop the charges but by that time he had listened to his idiot lawyer and pled guilty, the court case continued anyway. He did 18 months and moved on with his life.
Except he didn't. He has to notify the authorities whenever he moves. He's gotten back together with the girl and married, had a baby girl, but because he's listed as a sex offender he can't pick her up at daycare or her school, nor can she have friends over if he's there. Most states do not differentiate between predators and offenders or alow for consequences. He's no danger to a child, but he can never again be alone with one if he's not the father.
This is the result of not waiting six months.
Not that plenty of people don't have underage sex and get away with it, but the risks you run will follow you forever.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
While I agree with your post Bob, I think there are blurry zones.
Personal experience - I was 15 (3 months before I turned 16, which is the age of consent here) and my then boyfriend was 17.
I did love him, and at that stage I truly thought I would marry him. I grew up, we grew apart, and I didn't marry him - I did stay with him for 4 1/2 years though. I don't regret that relationship for an instant, nor do I regret being sexually active in it.
However, with hindsight, I should have waited those three months. I should have at least made it legal - for my lover, if not for me.
**
I was thinking about the whole age gaps/maturity thing, and I think a big thing about it is what stage people are at life.
For instance, in my case both myself and my boyfriend were still at highschool - we were both in the same social setting and context. In my eyes, I see that as quite different from someone who is at college/university starting up with someone at highschool, or in the more extreme cases someone who has finished college and is a professional with someone who is in highschool.
I guess that comes down to influence and relative power in a relationship - when you are both at the same stage of life (more or less) it is much more likely to be an equal relationship.
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And quid - *hugs*. I know you don't need 'em. But tough. Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Chris and imogen, many states define statutory rape such that the necessary conditions are not just being below the age of consent, but a substantial difference in age. I think this is the way it should be. I think it's absolutely tragic and wrong that your friend is labeled a sex-offender.
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posted
imogen: in several states, the age of consent is at least partially lower. For instance, its 16 in Indiana, excepting cases where one of the participants holds certain sorts of authority over the other.
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I will say that I think there's something quite different between a 15-29 relationship and a 15-17 relationship.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: But of course, nobody was thinking of that. It was just good fun and "nobody got hurt." Or if the law did get involved, it would've been society's fault for ruining his life, not your conscious decision to just break the law anyway.
I'm sorry you think it would be society's fault. I tend to take responsibility for my own actions and don't blame them on society. I'm not going to follow the letter of the law at all times, and I am sure you don't either. That does not mean I don't accept the consequences when they come. Also, he was a big boy, he made his choice and he could take care of himself. I was not his keeper.
quote: I'm sorry, but he was an idiot to put himself at such risk. And I have to ask why he would do it.
Because I'm so damn SEXY!! Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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2. If you really could look at it and say "oh well, my lover is now labeled a sex offender, but he's a big boy and knew the consequences when he started having sex with me," then I agree with you 100%, and I think you prove my point about the level of responsibility you felt towards him.
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quote:I tend to take responsibility for my own actions and don't blame them on society. I'm not going to follow the letter of the law at all times, and I am sure you don't either. That does not mean I don't accept the consequences when they come. Also, he was a big boy, he made his choice and he could take care of himself. I was not his keeper.
But see, the consequences of your actions for you were essentially nil when compared to the consequences for him. Your consquences would've been some court for you and lots of lecturing to be sure, and some embarrassment that would soon enough be forgotten (or at least fade) with time and moving through the world.
For him, though, well first it's court-time, probable humiliation from friends and family, then jail-time, and a lifetime of humiliation, legal restrictions, and knowing that at any time someone could find his name on a sexual predator list and immediately jump to, "This guy is a child rapist!"
This will sound pretty harsh and rude I know, but you brought it up, so I have to ask. I don't think you've ever used the word "love" to describe this relationship. You were honest enough to admit first you two fell in lust with each other, and then began to care emotionally for each other.
Now. What type of emotional caring for someone is it to let them risk such horrendous consequences for the sake of lust? Sure, he was willing to risk those consequences, but you were willing to let him, and help him. Knowing he could horribly hurt himself and others. Knowing that the risk for him was grossly disproportionate to your own risk.
Let's say that you and some friends go out to a secluded area, it's the middle of the night, you know there's not gonna be anyone else driving around. He's legal, you're not, he buys some booze and you two drink it together. He decides he wants to go toolin' around in his car while you wait by the campfire.
The normal argument against drunk driving is that it's horribly dangerous to a bunch of people who didn't decide to drink and drive. But in this case, that situation doesn't exist. He's only risking himself. You're his friend. Do you give him the keys and let him start doin' donuts?
Or, as someone who cares for him and his well-being, do you say, "You're in no condition to drive, it's too dangerous, I won't give you the keys."
I realize this is blunt and potentially hurtful to say, but what kind of friend says, "Here's your keys, now go have some fun!"
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17 year old me). I wasn't victimized, although my feelings were hurt when I found out what a horrible time she'd been having, on toward the end of the date. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Bob.
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