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Sorry, I didn't mean to say that I didn't want them to quote out of the Book of Mormon. I would definitely expect scripture to be quoted in a situation where someone asked you about your beliefs. But I would expect some kind of targeted direction. Something along the lines of, "Let's look at A 13:3, B 2:26, and all of C and D." All I got was "Read more."
Posts: 289 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Depends on where you are. Most of the highways I go on around here are pretty straight forward (except for the occasional clover leaf in Dallas, which I blame entirely on Dallas being weird).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I hope I didn't cause any anxiety about the appropriateness of any questions. I do think any question you have is appropriate to ask. I just remember being uncomfortable as a missionary when people asked me very involved questions before I'd had a chance to talk about the atonement, resurrection, apostasy and restoration, because I felt most questions couldn't be answered sufficiently without a good grounding in those core doctrines.
As for your short list, I think they'll be most ready for questions raised from your reading (I would have loved for an investigator to raise those sorts of questions). They may be less prepared to answer historical or social questions. Your temple question is entirely appropriate, but their response will probably be very similar to what tern said.
A ring ceremony is not a second marriage ceremony, since you can only be married once. It looks like a marriage ceremony, and is a way for non-temple attendees to participate.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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"Psh, we don't need sensible highways! We're Texas! Let's make some unnecessary one-way streets on either side of our interstates so that no one can find where they're trying to get to without driving back and fourth nine times over the same stretch of highway!"
quote:Oh, and I also will generally hang out with anyone who invites me to go do something, as I see no harm in seeing a movie with someone or having dinner or whatever. But I avoid physical contact, thus avoiding the "I'm not interested" discussion.
My sister! This is also my M.O.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Wow, you actually got confused about feeder/frontage roads? *shakes head* That's a real pity. Particularly with the idiot turns on almost all of them as well.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: As I think we've discussed, when she says she's busy twice I know she's saying she's not interested. The nice part is that it's message sent and received without me beating myself up. I know she's not interested but I don't have to hear the words.
Right, but in the case we discussed she really was just not getting your messages, and you were somewhat frustrated because you didn't know if she was getting your messages and not interested or not getting your messages. If you were in a culture where people told you clearly when they weren't interested, that wouldn't have been a problem.
Regardless, I am not trying to argue that the northern way is better than the southern way. I am arguing that they are different, and neither should be considered more polite than the other. I am also stating that I found Tatiana's original comment to be implying that she found northern manners more rude -- or less polite, which is the exact same thing -- than southern, and that I considered that generalization rude. You never addressed my second response to that, by the way, about if she was calling people rude or not.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ask them whatever you want, Pfresh. Questions are great. Just be aware that the answers to some questions may be "I don't know, I'll have to look that one up," or, "You don't have quite enough information to understand the answer to that one yet." As has been said before, they don't want to withhold answers, but trying to answer things before you have the proper context will make things more confusing rather than less.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Well I can understand the "I don't know, I'll have to look that one up" thing. Makes sense. The "You don't have quite enough information to understand the answer yet" doesn't seem right though. I mean I could understand them saying that, but I'd expect them to follow up with more information so that I could understand the answer.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Unless she's a northern girl. In which case she's saying she's busy. Although I suppose it still might mean, "not interested enough to cancel plans I've already made to jump at the chance."
Yeah, but I still subscribe to the three strike rule (sometimes two strikes, depending on the vibe I get). If the person wants to hang out but actually can't, they'll suggest an alternate time/event.
ElJay, That situation had extenuating circumstances, you're right, but I still told you guys my general policies (3 strikes, etc.). I agree that if everyone would get on board the saying-what-you-mean wagon life would be simpler, but it seems unlikely for now. And knowing that people (at least in the south) often couch their language you have to be prepared to deal with that.
I also agree that no one region is ruder/politer than any other region, as evidenced by my post on the last page stating as much. I agree that less polite/more rude are the same statement, but I was saying that more rude != rude. It's relative vs. absolute. Maybe the north seems rude, even though I don't personally think that's the case. But I can see how a Southerner would draw that conclusion. So no, I don't think she was saying North = Rude.
I think this exchange proves Dana's point about regional misunderstandings. I didn't know we were disagreeing.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Wow, you actually got confused about feeder/frontage roads? *shakes head* That's a real pity. Particularly with the idiot turns on almost all of them as well.
Psh. In civilized states, the interstate service roads are TWO-WAY streets.
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Quite a few of the ones in Texas are two-way, which always seemed odd to me. One-way seems to make more sense (since they are on each side). Of course my experience only extends to a small number of states.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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"ElJay, she said Southern people are politer, not that people everywhere else are rude."
as disagreeing with me saying that Tatiana's statement was rude, and so I gave another example of why I thought that was the case. Because in the second example she didn't say "more rude" she said a particular behavior was "extremely rude." It certainly felt to me that that equated her saying she considered North = Rude. That was the part I wanted (want) to hear your thoughts on.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: The "You don't have quite enough information to understand the answer yet" doesn't seem right though. I mean I could understand them saying that, but I'd expect them to follow up with more information so that I could understand the answer.
Which is exactly what they should do, it just might extend beyond a single discussion because the foundation is large. I often found myself saying things like, "That's a great question, and I can give you a short answer right now, but we'll have to have a couple more discussions before I can really explain it well."
For instance, if you ask about the church's views on gender roles, there's probably a quick answer. But the quick answer will be unsatisfying unless you understand the significance of temple marriage and eternal families to church members, which is, in turn, difficult to understand without discussing beliefs about atonment and redemption, which requires discussion of the life and mission of Christ. All of which should probably take more than just one hour to discuss.
I'm making this sound like a big huge thing, which its not. It's just that the LDS religion (like all religions) is a complex set of beliefs and trying to talk about any one belief in isolation can be confusing. And some beliefs can only be adequately explained in the context of other beliefs.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:The baldfaced "don't call me again" sounds extremely rude to our ears.
Which to me says not that the statement in itself is implicitly rude, just that under a certain interpretation it comes off that way. That interpretation being a Southern one (which I'm not sure I agree with). But all the same, I just don't make the jump from rude statement to rude culture. I think it reveals as much about how people in the south take things as how people in the north say them.
I guess I disagree with any absolute saying about who's nice and who's not, because it's not gonna be true. Less nice, more rude, fatter, lazier, more hardworking, bigger drinkers, I may disagree with but I don't fault someone for thinking that because it's subjective, by and large.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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*shrug* Fair enough. I still can't imagine anyone I know making a similar statement, to either of them. ("People X are more polite than people Y" or "People X say Statement Z, which sounds extremely rude to People Y.") They both sound extremely rude to my ears. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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SenojRetep, I can understand that. A lot of times you do have to understand one thing (or multiple things) to understand a particular subject or issue. I would just hope that if I bring up an issue they'd at least offer some information, or maybe a direction in which I could look.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I thought that was common travel talk, like:
"Man, it smells funny here."
"This place is full of ugly people."
"Food here is much better than back home."
"The next person who lets a door slam in my face is getting stabbed in the neck with a ballpoint pen."
These all (except the last one) are variations on the rude/polite statement. They're generalizations, and sometimes they're right but sometimes not.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Yeah, and I would not dream of saying any of them, no matter how hard I though them. They are all rude. I would particularly not say them where a native of that area could hear me, such as on a message board with members from a wide variety of places.
And honestly, I've never heard other people saying them, either, although I've heard people from other countries complaining about Americans saying things like that. I've always been flabbergasted that it happens, and that it happens often enough that we have a reputation for it.
Added: Sorry, all except the "food is better here" statement, I misread that one. It's still a generalization, but since it's complimentary it's not necessarily a rude generalization.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Oh, I see. Your problem is not that she said it, it's that she said it where people who might be offended could hear it.
I see your point. I wouldn't say any of the above statements where a local could hear me, only to my travelling companions.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Hmmm, almost. I think it's rude to say it at all, honestly. But I know we all think uncomplimentary things from time to time. So if you feel you must say it, then yeah, I think you should at least saying it to someone who won't be offended. And I'd rather it be presented as an opinion than a statement of fact.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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"Particularly in public, in a social setting that contained many people from the region in question."
So I'm a bit surprised that it took you this long to get that part of my problem was that she said it where people who might be offended could hear it. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Having been to west Texas, I do not consider Texas to be a Southern state. There's just too much, or too little, of a lot of stuff in Texas that isn't in any other Southern state to really call it a Southern state. Like, say, trees and sagebrush. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ring ceremonies are where you exchange the wedding rings. That's about it. Our Stake President presided, said a few words, we swapped rings, kissed, that was it.
Sometimes when we say that you don't have enough information, it is because there is a lot of supporting information that we can't just easily provide. And sometimes it is because you don't have the spiritual foundation to fully understand it. A lot of doctrine can only be fully understood by living it. And then there are the deep (and usually, unimportant) things of doctrine. But we'll try to identify those when/if they come up.
If anyone says that you shouldn't join the Church until you know everything about it, they're being unrealistic. It's like saying you shouldn't go to college until you know enough to graduate. We're all still learning.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Having lived in Texas for four years, and living here again, it's definitely the South. Especially in race relations.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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I think it's always an opinion, but it's also honestly pretty normal conversation when I'm travelling.
The tone changes though. If it's a family vacation it's all positive "look how pretty that is" stuff.
But if it's a group of guys they typically always want to bash something about wherever we are. When you're not home, your hometown is an extension of you. Since you choose to live there it says something about you. So saying, "my place is better than this" is really just saying "I'm better than you". It's not a nice thing to do, though. Hmm, I'm gonna keep an eye on that.
posted
I agree with you that it's always an opinion, but it's rarely phrased as an opinion, and I think that makes a big difference. I think it's much less offensive to say "I don't like the food here" than to say "The food here is bad." Obviously the second one is just your opinion, too, but it comes across much more as a value judgement, and someone overhearing is much more likely to take it personally (hearing that "I'm better than you" you mentioned) and be offended.
My personal goal is to only ever be rude/offensive on purpose. There are times when I feel it is warrented. But I try very hard not to give unintentional offense. I know I don't always succeed, but you can only do your best, ya know?
And for the moment, I feel that we have probably been hijacking pfresh's thread enough. We've pretty much come to understand each other here, haven't we?
Edit: Two "ya knows?" Bugged me.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tern: Having lived in Texas for four years, and living here again, it's definitely the South. Especially in race relations.
Having lived in Texas almost 11 years now, I will agree. We are more similar to the South than dissimilar. We are very much unique among the South though.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Having lived in Texas for four years, and living here again, it's definitely the South. Especially in race relations.
Like, the rest of the country has less of a race problem than in the South and Texas is part of that racist culture, or the opposite?
There is just so much different about Texas than the rest of the South, it's weird that anyone could even say that is part of 'the South'. Deserts. Mountains. Cactuseses. Cowboy hats. The fact that you share a border with Mexico and Oklahoma. Y'all don't even say 'hey' when you say hello. You say 'howdy'. WTF is that crazy crap? Finally, your bbq sucks in comparison to the rest of the South.
You guys should've stayed independent just to avoid confusion.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I think we've beaten our collective point(s) into each other's skulls, along with anybody else's in shouting distance.
Maybe my second New Years resolution will be to not be as dense as granite.
So, pfresh, might I ask what happened recently to draw you to Mormonism? Or is it just up next on your religious smorgasboard?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Something about it drew me in during the summer. I think part of it was just some of the stuff I read on here and some of the things I had heard about Mormonism. I got a copy of the Book of Mormon shortly after that. I stopped looking into it for a while (when I was first getting put on medications for my anxiety/depression). Then I came back. So yeah. There you go.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I guess the long and short of it was what effect hatrack had on your looking at it.
I was just curious, because I never had any interaction with active LDS before hatrack, and my impressions have changed a lot.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I knew two guys who are LDS in high school (they were twins), and so I had some interaction, but it was all minor (and mostly joking stuff). It wasn't until Hatrack that I got more interaction.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I have never heard anyone say 'howdy' unironically.
I'm pretty sure I said it to you when you came and visited us. It is my standard greeting, and it isn't ironic.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You know, I find the real problem with the early stages of exploring a possible switch to a different denomination or religion is that you often don't get the full story on all the various tenets, dogma, and nitty-gritty until you are full member. I don't know how one gets around that, but it does make it sort of difficult to answer fully the question of whether one or the other place is a good fit for ones own pre-existing beliefs.
I don't mean this specifically for people thinking of joining the LDS. There are weird little "things" about every denomination and often they are of such a minute or intricate nature that it'd be impossible to research them all or get a verbal explanation of them prior to joining.
And that doesn't even address the things that are part of each church's most closely held "mysteries" that they just aren't going to spread around outside of their own strong members.
I'm just sayin'. It's almost like people are asked to take faith, um...on faith.
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There are times when I feel it is warrented. But I try very hard not to give unintentional offense. I know I don't always succeed, but you can only do your best, ya know? ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
This was supposed to be after kat's comment.
