quote:Originally posted by tern: Having lived in Texas for four years, and living here again, it's definitely the South. Especially in race relations.
At least in the urban areas of the south that I'm familiar with, I find race relations to be much better in general than where I am now (note the lack of generalization to a whole region). It might just be familiarity; this part of the country (Indiana) seems not to have the level of racial diversity that I grew up with.
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Bob, there are those concerns about it. You never get to hear it all until you are in there. I guess I just want to learn as much as I can, and then if it feels right, I'll make a move towards it. That's the best I can do.
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One of my gay friends had to go up to New York for the semester, and for the first time in his life (he's always lived in Florida or Louisiana), someone spat on him.
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Hm. Based on my personal experience of New York, I'd say it's more likely they knew he was from Florida and didn't know he was gay. But YMMV.
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Dallas was scary, race-relations wise. And I grew up in L.A.
I'd almost prefer violence and open hatred to thinly-veiled contempt. (Not that most people, especially of my generation, had any racial feelings whatsoever. It was the born-and-raised people of my parents' generation who scared me.)
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Agreed kq. My parents' generation has a thinly-veiled contempt thing going on (and I even see it in my parents). It's sort of scary at times.
EDIT: Back on the Mormon note, I went from feeling really good to really bad. I'm not positive my motives are the best ones. I'll share if people want to know more.
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: EDIT: Back on the Mormon note, I went from feeling really good to really bad. I'm not positive my motives are the best ones. I'll share if people want to know more.
I want to know. But you can im it to me if you want.
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Yeah, I'm sorry to say my (LDS) mother-in-law has some issues. And had real problems with her daughter marrying a black man. *sigh*
It was just so different every time they came over than it was this Thanksgiving at my cousin's house, with my sister and her black boyfriend. It's just... so different. I can't even explain how wonderful it was to see even my grandmother not noticing his race-- I'd never have noticed that before, but after having a different experience, I noticed.
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pH, I'm fine sharing it here. I'll post it out and if you want more details, you know how to get to me.
So most of you know I've been complaining a lot about a sort of lack of belonging that I feel. I felt it somewhat in high school, but I've felt it a lot more since college began. I've tried things to correct it (before anyone tries to jump on me). I went to a few clubs and all of the social activities for incoming freshmen. I never found my group though, my little niche. I felt isolated and alone.
This year has been more of the same. Psychologist and psychiatrist alike blamed my isolation as a result of anxiety in social situations (which is partly true and partly not true). Since being put on medication, I've been trying stuff again. I still haven't found my group. I started going to church again 3 weeks ago (like many of you know), which was a super surprising step for everyone who knew me.
Yet even going to church, I found myself not among my sort of people. Everything was so casual, too casual for my tastes. I felt like I didn't belong.
I started talking to my Christian friends (mostly Protestant, but a few Catholics as well). Then I started learning I'm seemingly an outcast from them as well now.
My group of friends in high school was sort of the goody good group. We basically all agreed we weren't going to smoke, weren't going to drink, and weren't really going to go after sex until after marriage. Now it's coming out that everyone I know (yes, it's an everyone now) does at least one if not all of those things. One of my guy friends I felt I could relate the most to I now feel a large divide with now that I know that he drinks and smokes cigars. I know people change, and I accept that that's how these people are and that it's their decision. I just feel now like I'm totally alone, that there isn't anyone in my life that gets me or shares any of my views.
The last time I started feeling like this was the first time I checked out the Mormon church. I only had vague (and at times untrue) statements about the church to go on, but I looked into it. I heard they were seriously against drinking and smoking. I heard they were serious about deep relationships (between friends, between family, and dating), and that they were also a lot more serious about the no sex before marriage thing. I felt somewhat like the church fit with my own views. At the same time, I still had my own bias against the church at the time (again built off of some preconceived and mostly untrue things). Still, I requested a copy of the Book of Mormon be sent to my apartment so that I could look into it further.
A month or so ago (maybe longer), I was talking with Amanecer online (she's one of the people I go to to talk about really serious stuff) about possibly going to church again and asking sort of if she had any ideas about churches and what might fit me. She said something along the lines of "Well if you could actually believe and feel strongly about their faith, I think you would fit in well with the Mormons." I didn't ask her why at the time. It sort of coincided with my own thoughts though. On the phone with my father that night (since I talk to him nightly), I mentioned that I was considering testing out other churches. I mentioned that Amanecer had said something about the Mormon church, and his response was something along the lines of "Stay away from that bunch. You don't want anything to do with that." That killed my interests, because I felt like I couldn't go behind my parents backs.
Those old isolated feelings have come back and are much worse now. I don't feel like I fit in there, that my views don't click. I feel like an oddity. A large part of me just wants to belong, and I think I could belong with the Mormon church. It's just I'm not positive.
As I said, maybe my motives aren't the best ones. I just know I'm trying to find my place in this life. Even on my medications, I'm unhappy a good deal of the time, and I think it's because I spend so much time in isolation because I feel a lack of belonging everywhere here. That's about all I can say really.
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Sometimes it takes a while to find your niche, your group. It takes me years, sometimes (after a move). It's always hard. But you're doing everything right by keeping it up. Keep trying new things until you find people who share your interests and morals.
I personally never had a problem with people who do things I don't. My best friend doesn't drink or go out to the bars at all. Since I do that every weekend and work in a different city you wouldn't think we'd hang out a lot. You'd be wrong though. He doesn't lecture me about my partying, and I don't lecture him about not having his undergrad degree even though he started college in '96 (he's never taken a semester off).
Maybe you can still hang out with your friend who drinks and smokes cigars, provided there's something you can do together that doesn't involve those things.
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Yeah, I agree that drinking/smoking/sex matters a lot less as you get older (in terms of who you hang out with). Mostly, I think, because people get less peer-pressurey.
The only time it becomes an issue is with the militant "straight edge" people.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Maybe you can still hang out with your friend who drinks and smokes cigars, provided there's something you can do together that doesn't involve those things.
Well that's not a problem as we go to different schools. I still talk to him online like I did; it's not like I told him we can't be friends because of this or lectured him about it. It's just that my connection to him is a lot less than it was. We had more common ground before.
As I think I said, this is an all me problem. It's not that other people are ostracizing me. It's just that I don't feel like I belong. I know that people who drink don't drink all the time and they do other activities. Even at those other activities though, I'm the odd ball out. Case in point, I watched the UT/A&M game at a friend's house who does drink and smoke a lot. There was no drinking or smoking or anything during the game. But there was a lot of talk of it and "typical college life" and all. I felt like I wasn't a part of it. It's always me on the outside looking in. I hate that feeling. I want to belong.
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I didn't mean that Northerners are rude. I'm very sorry if I gave that impression. I meant that the cultural differences between the North and South are such that things considered polite up north are considered very rude here. A person who didn't understand these differences could make a mistake and would appear quite rude to a southerner, when that was not their intention nor their real meaning.
dkw and others very justly point out that it's also true that what is considered simple good manners in the South can come off as passive aggressive to people in other parts of the country.
I just read a book about Arab culture and it seems that Arabs are like super-Southerners. They would never say "no" to a request. That would be considered very rude. They would say "oh I will do my very best to see that it happens, but you understand that I can't guarantee it will be possible". I remember now the Arab builder who assured my mother and father numerous times "oh yes, rest assured, by tomorrow it will be done" and it never was. I think cultural differences like this cause a lot of misunderstandings.
Though they feel to everyone like natural laws, these things are really just different customs and they are simply different from one place to another. Everyone is acting politely, but they are misinterpreted as being rude by people with different cultural norms.
I try to go by the rules in whatever place I am at the moment. Though I do find it hard to be more blunt than feels tactful and nice to me. I think I would love to learn the Arab way, and go even more in that direction rather than the other.
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quote: It's always me on the outside looking in. I hate that feeling. I want to belong.
I would work on belonging before you start messing with things that could hypothetically affect your immortal soul. But then that kind of philosophy has definitely delayed my acceptance of any given religion, so YMMV.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: It's just a different cultural norm. People in the south are politer.
That sounded pretty blunt to me.
I guess I'm firmly in the camp of bluntness. If someone (in America) refuses to tell someone or some group that they aren't interested, and just keep repeating that they are too busy or have a headache or whatever, I would call that lying and I have no respect for that whatsoever.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I would work on belonging before you start messing with things that could hypothetically affect your immortal soul.
Well see I'm trying. It's just part of the problem is I haven't found a group to belong to.
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I know how you feel about not belonging. The best friends I had when I was younger all had the same ideals I had - the same ones you mentioned, particularly the one about not having sex before marriage. As we all got older I was dismayed to see how quickly and completely my friends abandoned those ideals. I was suddenly different, and I wasn't the one who changed.
I think whenever people are hurting they seek for something to make them happier ... and they often turn to religion because it can fill that need. In my biased opinion, I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking out religion because you're hurting and the religion fills your specific need - that's the point of religion, to help you find answers that lead you to happiness.
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I'm sorry that I can't offer a good reply to your comments JennaDean (as I probably have some good ideas to comment). I'm having an emotioanlly draining argument over IM with pH though. So I apologize for my lack of good reply now.
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IMO, not having sex before marriage, not drinking, not smoking ... none of these things, to me, are ideals.
They are activities (or the avoidance of activities) based on ideals, but those IDEALS are actually closer to: "sex is sacred," "doing things to impair your health or relax your inhibitions is dangerous and/or foolish," etc.
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I'd just say, talk with the missionaries, take the lessons, and see what happens from there. Everyone's experience is unique, and their own.
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Well pH and I are arguing over using ideals as a means of defining who you are. It's complicated and deep stuff. Frustrating too.
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I think the ideals behind these things though have to at least somewhat line up for a really deep friendship to be built though. At least in my opinion.
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If I knew you better, I could venture an opinion that might mean something to you, but as it is, I think all we have to go on is the image you have presented here online, and it is not complete, nor could or should it be.
Realize then, that I have lots of questions and these are not meant to challenge you or come across as if I don't believe what you say, but I would like more data, pure and simple.
First, do you equate being different from others with being alone? I believe you do, but I can't be sure, so rather than ask "why" you believe that, I would rather start with DO YOU believe that.
Second, what do you think would be "good" or "correct" reasons for joining ANY particular group (church or non-church related doesn't matter).
Or... Third, does it matter to you whether you feel you BELONG to a church-related group. Is there a connectional aspect to your spiritual quest that you feel is lacking?
Fourth, and this is it for now, what do think are truly "wrong" reasons for joining a particular group (especially a church-reated group)?
I hope you don't mind answering, but if you do not want to, or simply can't, please don't feel badly about it. At this point, I'm just being nosy. I am not on AIM and I don't visit Hatrack during the day, so I'm not really going to be much use in a conversation or dialog.
But I do hope I (and others) can help by offering suggestions and the benefit of our experience with similar groups or with the same sorts of feelings.
I venture to say that all intelligent people go through periods of alienation and isolation, and it is certainly not uncommon to do so while away at school. We might have ideas that could help.
But if you notice a difference with the meds, that is also a sign of needing more than just friendly advice. My first friendly advice, then, is to keep taking the meds and going to see a therapist you trust.
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"First, do you equate being different from others with being alone? I believe you do, but I can't be sure, so rather than ask "why" you believe that, I would rather start with DO YOU believe that."
I don't equate being alone with being different. I think you can be different and still be in a group.
"Second, what do you think would be "good" or "correct" reasons for joining ANY particular group (church or non-church related doesn't matter)."
Shared interest would be one. If there's a shared interest, there's a reason to join up with the group. There's probably more but they aren't coming immediately to my head.
"Or... Third, does it matter to you whether you feel you BELONG to a church-related group. Is there a connectional aspect to your spiritual quest that you feel is lacking?"
I want to belong to a church-related group. I've sort of returned to my spiritual roots in the last year or so, and so I sort of want to belong in a group there.
"Fourth, and this is it for now, what do think are truly "wrong" reasons for joining a particular group (especially a church-related group)?"
The only reason I can think of that would be wrong for joining a certain group would be if you could take advantage of something. A person shouldn't join a group merely to take advantage of some certain aspect of it. A person should join for the whole group (good and bad).
"But if you notice a difference with the meds, that is also a sign of needing more than just friendly advice. My first friendly advice, then, is to keep taking the meds and going to see a therapist you trust."
Well I see my psychiatrist again Thursday after my 2 finals to discuss the effects of the current new meds I'm on. Then on Saturday, I go back to see my psychiatrist to discuss some issues (in particular my self-loathing and holding myself to an impossible standard).
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quote:IMO, not having sex before marriage, not drinking, not smoking ... none of these things, to me, are ideals.
You're right, I should have used the word standards. As in standards of behavior.
pH said,
quote:... to me, things like being drink-, drug-, and sex-free are not personality traits.
I would agree, if one was drink-, drug-, or sex-free by accident or by lack of opportunity. But if that behavior is a choice, the reasons you stick to those standards even while the rest of society seemingly behaves opposite to you definitely make up an important part of who you are.
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pfresh, it doesn't have to be behind your parents' backs if you want to check out the Church-- you just have to be willing to do something they may not (immediately, or possibly even ever) approve of. My mom was very against the Church-- but now that she sees me going there and happy and involved, she is much more happy about it, because I've dispelled a lot of her false notions and fears.
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Well I know my father and mother are against (as well as my brother, my sister not so much), but I think they are against it mainly a) due to false spread stuff about the church and b) missionaries constantly coming by our house. I think if I get further into checking it out (and considering actually attending), then I will talk to my parents. I'm not trying to hide it really; I just don't want to provoke upset or argument unnecessarily.
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: I would agree, if one was drink-, drug-, or sex-free by accident or by lack of opportunity. But if that behavior is a choice, the reasons you stick to those standards even while the rest of society seemingly behaves opposite to you definitely make up an important part of who you are. [/QB]
As I said to pfresh, I don't think it's healthy to make "non-drinker," "non-smoker," etc. an essential part of your personal identity. The reasons behind them, fine. But to me, who you are should be much more solid than something that can be undermined by a single drag off a cigarette.
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I understand that people who don't hold the same standards think they aren't really important. It doesn't require much thought or effort to decide to do what feels good, or what your friends are doing.
But to those who do hold those standards, they are important. Just keeping those standards when the rest of the world seems to be going in the opposite direction requires a certain amount of perserverance and integrity. To make a decision where you consciously choose to do the opposite of what most of your friends do will have a bigger impact on how you view yourself than a decision to just do what everyone else does. So the effect of keeping those standards does actually impact who you are.
I don't mean to imply that others have no integrity; just that it wasn't gained from making this particular decision to uphold these standards. Therefore, this particular decision may seem unimportant to those who do smoke, drink, have sex, etc., but it can be defining for someone who chooses not to.
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I agree that the spirit in which these things are avoided is what's important. Still, I believe certain activities should be avoided even when understanding of the consequences isn't fully mature. Not taking drugs---if you are taught that you shouldn't get into drugs from the time you are young, you can avoid a harmful, debilitating addiction even as your understanding of the consequences matures.
Our identity is based partly on the things we will and will not do. Although we won't always be perfect in doing what we should and avoiding what we should not, the concept of repentance is very real to us. We make mistakes, but there is a way to overcome those mistakes and move on while preserving our strong sense of identity.
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KQ - it appears to be hardcore non-drinking, non-other stuff (I presume smoking and drugs) organisation that call themselves "edge". As in, "I don't drink, I'm edge"
They have, among other things a list of "edge-breakers" - people who have started drinking. So you can keep track and, it is insinuated, either avoid those people or teach them a lesson.
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quote:A person should join for the whole group (good and bad).
So why can't you take this approach with friends, too?
It sounds like you expect to much out of people. They're not perfect, and no matter how much they claim they'll never drink/smoke/have sex, most people try all three at some point in their life. If you have a friend who isn't gonna have sex, then they have sex it doesn't make them a fundamentally different person. Maybe it was a lapse in judgement, or maybe they changed their mind about how important it was to them. Who knows?
As for feeling like you're on the outside, that's more to do with you than your friends (like in your example of watching the game). I'd be shocked if any of them were thinking, "Man, what's pfresh doing here; he's not part of this group."
If you aren't talking, people assume you're quiet, or shy. Not that you're terrified you don't belong.
So I guess my advice is to persevere with your group searching, lighten up about who you allow to be your friend, and go with whichever church feels right.
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quote:If you aren't talking, people assume you're quiet, or shy. Not that you're terrified you don't belong.
Actually, I have a personal tendency to assume that quiet, shy people are also terrified. It's a failing of mine, even.
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I don't think pfresh is talking about "something that can be undermined by a single drag on a cigarette." He's saying that his friends attitudes, beliefs and personalities are changing in ways that make him feel less a part of their group. An indication of those personality changes is that they no longer hold to the standards they once did.
What changes in your friends, pH, would make you feel less comfortable being around them?
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Pfresh, you're getting a lot of information and it's made me think a lot about you and your situation. I hope you know that you are cared about and that you are not alone. I agree with Spang, go with what feels right and trust yourself a little bit.
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pfresh85, I've been avoiding responding to this thread for several reasons. Mainly most people have already expressed good opinions, and partly as a former Mormon, I'm wary of being too biased in my opinion. I'd never tell you not to check out the church. In fact, based on what you've written here, I think you might very well find the Mormon church a place where you feel like you belong.
However, I think you should be careful to keep your priorities in mind when investigating the church. What's most important in the long run is that you actually believe all that they are teaching you. If not, and you still choose to become part of the church because of some other social factor you are going to find the experience ultimately less than satisfying. As a missionary, and working with missionaries in my own hometown, I have met literally hundreds of people who (seem to have) joined the church because it filled a social need only to leave it ultimately because they questioned certain aspects of the doctrine, or simply because the social aspect no longer had the holding power it did at first.
Basically what I'm saying is that the social aspect and sense of belonging are all fringe benefits if you join the church because you believe it to be true. If you join for the social belonging but without the spiritual conviction, you are setting yourself up for troubles down the road. It's not easy being Mormon. Your family's reaction is a small indication of that.
The fact that there are Mormons on this thread warning you to avoid certain other groups of Mormons is indication that the social experience isn't homogenous. Investigate the church by all means, and seek to know what you believe is true. But don't make commitments to the church out of social needs alone. Your family will always be a part of your life. The Church only so much as your faith makes it so. While the social aspects can bolster your faith, they are fickle and cannot create faith in and of themselves.
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Interesting Karl, why exactly did you leave the Church. I myself am under 18 and go to church on sundays with my friend whose family is Mormon. I'd recommend this for you pfresh: Don't get baptised until you're sure you believe everything they teach. And you still get the social outlet. Like just about all churches, they welcome outsiders to go to ward meetings and get involved in church social events.
For me, it wasn't easy though. I broke down after a time, for more reasons than just my parents not wanting me to go earlier in the year. I talked to them evntually and now I go this often, as well as just simply being more happy and social. You sound like you're in a similiar position as I was, or else getting close. I really recommend that talking to your parents is your only real choice. The sacrifice of doing so is worth the rewards, trust me.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: It sounds like you expect to much out of people. They're not perfect, and no matter how much they claim they'll never drink/smoke/have sex, most people try all three at some point in their life. If you have a friend who isn't gonna have sex, then they have sex it doesn't make them a fundamentally different person. Maybe it was a lapse in judgement, or maybe they changed their mind about how important it was to them. Who knows?
Exactly.
Also, Senoj, while a decision to start drinking, smoking, or having sex COULD indicate a personality change, I don't think it's fair to write off all people who make that kind of decision.
The sorts of things that have generally made me uncomfortable about people I was formerly friends with were blatant changes in personality, and as I said, I don't think that abstaining from things is a personality trait. I also don't think all changes in personality are for the worse; people change, and people grow up. I'm sure I'm not the same as I was when I was sixteen.
Also remember that it might take time to understand enough about a religion to know if you really believe its tenets.
Just as an example, for those converting to Catholicism (at least in our parish), candidates meet for a two hour "class" once a week from October to Easter. It takes some time.
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