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Dr Strangelove
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Hi there collective wisdom of beautiful Hatrack,

I'm a senior in highschool and I figure I should really start looking for a college to go to. The only thing that really interests me remotely is history. So my question is this: What colleges are known for their History programs? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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pfresh85
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I'm not much of a help in knowing what schools are big on history. I'm a history major at UTD, and I probably wouldn't recommend it to most people. It seems like an inferior program to me. Maybe that's just me. *waits for Amanecer to chip in with her two cents*
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blacwolve
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IU's pretty good in History, and it has rolling admissions, which would be good for you since most college admission deadlines are at the end of December.
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Shanna
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You might want to start by considering some of these options:

Do you want to stay in-state/close to home or go cross-country?

What can you afford? How much would scholarship money factor into your choice?

That'll really help you limit down your choices. I found college to be a game of exclusion.

Contact your school counselors/advisors who can provide you with some good college review publications and websites that allow program searches and side-by-side comparisions.

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Minerva
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Are you male or female? I'm thinking of women's colleges.
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Jhai
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You also probably shouldn't try to determine which colleges to apply to because of one department. Most college students change their minds about what they want to study while at college. Also, most colleges will have decent programs in all of the basic subjects (math, history, english, biology, chemistry, etc). You should only research departments in detail when you really, really want to study something out of the ordinary while an undergrad, like, say, South Asian Art History.

Instead, I would suggest you look for a school which you can afford and has an atmosphere that you like.

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Shanna
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Indeed. The learning environment and process will have the biggest effect on the your enjoyment of a particular field.

Lots of schools have good history departments but which offers the best program for you. My school, for instance, has a great program in history but its suited for students who want to study from a liberal arts perspective and feel comfortable in undergrad seminars with only 4 people. I know some people who overwhelmed by that degree of study and do better in large classrooms with more rigid teaching styles.

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Zarex
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SVU, Orson Scott Card teaches there. Where else could you possibly want to go. But then again I'm a bit biased.
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pH
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I think it's way better to choose a college based on its "feel," really. Because there's no guarantee that you'll keep studying history, and you could be stuck in a school that's not good for underwater basket-weaving when you realize after your freshman year that that's all you want to do for the rest of your life.

I got lucky. [Wink] I switched out of a great music industry program into a great marketing program and still managed to maintain the music industry concentration.

-pH

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Amanecer
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quote:
*waits for Amanecer to chip in with her two cents*
I agree. UTD is a science, not liberal arts, oriented school.

Strangelove- What do you want to do with your history degree? Do you want to teach? Are you planning on getting a master's? Is there a specific area that you're interested in studying? I guess my real question is "why are you majoring in history?" If you want to teach, do research, or go to law school that is a great major. And which university you choose could be strongly affected by these things. If you don't want these things, there are few other practical applications for a history major. I decided to get a history major simply because it was my favorite subject in high school. I now realize that this is a very bad basis for choosing a major and am double majoring in a more practical area. Some people might disagree, but I think it's wise to figure out your what you want to do and pick you're major from there. Is history what you want to do?

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Carrie
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On Wisconsin!

But this is speaking from much personal bias.


Seriously, consider the questions above. And if I may ask, why did you wait so long to start thinking about this?

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tern
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I would recommend an Ivy League college if you can get into it. Generally, they're known for their leftist arts and social science programs, and even if you change your mind, the name on the degree opens doors. So if you don't want to end up a history professor yourself, you can use your degree and have a bright future in political corruption! ;P

If you don't mind providing this information, what are your SAT/ACT scores and GPA?

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ambyr
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quote:
If you want to teach, do research, or go to law school that is a great major. . .]If you don't want these things, there are few other practical applications for a history major.
Sorry, Amanecer, but sort of restricted thinking about undergraduate majors is a serious pet peeve of mine. History is a very common undergraduate major for businesspeople and corporate executives. More obviously it's also common among librarians, journalists, museum workers. . .see the page "what can you do with an undegraduate degree in history?" for more ideas.

There are things you will have difficulty doing with a history major; I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a sole major if your ultimate goal is, oh, to work as a computer programmer or a biotech researcher or a psychiatrist or whatnot. But if you're looking for office work in the business or non-profit world, it's a pretty solid choice, and if you're looking to go into grad school, it will be applicable to a lot of different programs.

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Jhai
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Yeah - unless you're certain you want to go into a field which requires a large amount of "technical" training (accounting, engineering, programming, etc), you can do well with almost any major. Major in what you like, not what you think will help you out on the job market. Most employers are more interested in students who have good communication skills and have learned how to learn than they are in filling out their departments with business and applied math majors. And yes, I have that direct from a number of different employers (I'm in a Management Fellows program at my school which allows students to hobnob with alums who are CEOs or other hotshots. [Smile] )
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pfresh85
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I'd expect though that for a given open job (in business since that was the example you used), an employer would take someone with a business/management major over someone with a history major, since they would have more training in the field they were going into.

I would agree that history majors can be other things besides teachers and researchers, but I think you're giving it a lot more leeway than it deserves. In a competitive job market, history majors do have limited avenues to pursue (assuming they don't get a second degree in something else).

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fugu13
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pfresh85: that might only be the case in an "if all else is equal" situation . . . and when it comes to the interviewing stage, all else is almost never equal. They're going to take the one who sounds like a better fit, no matter which major the person has. History can do a good job of preparing a student for such situations.

Also, most jobs are not found in a standard interview manner. People get jobs based on, among other things, friends and contacts.

Not to mention that its only an undergraduate degree; if you decide you want to go into business with it, get an MBA.

And partly, of course, this isn't a matter of debate, but of the record. There are lots of executives with non-business undergrad degrees, and one common one is history. In my personal experience, the majority of people I know (including in academia) are in jobs relatively unrelated to their undergraduate major.

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pfresh85
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Well see fugu, therein lies my complaint with our world. We don't live in an equal system, where it's a level playing field for all. It's a "who do you know" and "how well can you schmooze (sp?)" system. I find that both disappointing and unfortunate.

I understand completely that many people do things completely unrelated to their major. I just think if you take history on the whole, most history majors are probably either teaching, doing history research at a university of some sort, or went to law school. This observation is based purely on a) people I know who graduated with history majors and b) people I know (like myself) who are history majors currently and have certain plans set out for the future.

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Dr Strangelove
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hmmm ... Lets see. First off, I'm a guy. Secondly, I had pretty much decided on either going to Florida State or Flagler (a private college in St. Augustine, for those who know Florida), but then my dad started pushing me to really check out where would be the absolute best, not simply the most convenient. So I've been searching and I've seen pretty much what I've seen here: No consensus on a really great school for History majors. And as for that ...

I really have not the slightest idea what I want to do with my life. But I do know that I am repulsed by most aspects of business, am horrific at science related things, and I dislike math greatly. So that narrows my career field considerably. But when looking at the options I have left (Law, teaching, archeology, politics, journalism, etc) nothing jumps out at me. Therefore my aim in choosing a major was to choose something that I not only enjoyed, but also fit into my scheme of things, or lack thereof. And History seemed to fit the bill perfectly. I very well may change my major after my first semester, but as of right now, History seems to be the most intelligent choice, considering my strengths and desires.

Back on a more practical note, I'm not entirely sure if this means a great deal, though it very well might, but I will be a transfer. I'm currently dual-enrolled at a local community college and will be graduating in the spring with my highschool diploma and AA degree.

By the way, as it appears there is no real clear choice I should be aiming for, does anyone have an opinion on FSU? And I don't mean football wise, please. lol. I know some people up in Tallahassee and have always enjoyed that area, but I don't know a great deal about the school itself, except what I can get from the website. Any opinions would be appreciated.

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pH
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I didn't have a good impression of Tallahassee or FSU students, but I was only there for five days, and I was rather distressed for other reasons at the time. A girl from my high school went there for drama, and she seems to like it a lot.

I want to go to school in St. Augustine. [Frown] You have no idea how much I love that city.

Also, requirements for transfer students are often much more lenient than requirements for incoming freshmen, though you'll also likely have fewer scholarship opportunities.

-pH

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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by pfresh85:
I'd expect though that for a given open job (in business since that was the example you used), an employer would take someone with a business/management major over someone with a history major, since they would have more training in the field they were going into.

That's what many people expect, but that's not what's necessarily true. As I said, I've been told by HR people, CEOs of large firms (Tim Solso of Cummins, Patricia Miller of Vera Bradley, etc.), and other various VIPs that they would prefer a person with a degree in philosophy, psychology, history, etc from a liberal arts college over a person with a degree in business from just about anywhere, as long as the history major had a class or two in math or economics (so that the employer would know they could handle data and numbers).

Why?

Because a company will teach you how to do marketing or HR in the way they want you to do it, whether or not you've learned the basics beforehand. What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job. And a person with a background in demanding history or psychology program is not only more likely to have the necessary skills of communication and the ability to learn, they're also bringing something more to the table than just a knowledge of marketing.

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pfresh85
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.

*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
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Jhai
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Sorry to have hijacked your thread, Dr. Strangelove.

I don't know many (or any, really) schools in Florida, but I do have some advice for you:

A) Strongly consider a liberal arts college: you'll have a better chance at making relationships with your professors (important if you want to go to grad school) and you'll probably be exposed to a larger number of different subjects, which might help you choose what to major in.

B) Consider trying out a different part of the country. As much as I dislike midwest winters, choosing to go to school out here rather than back home in California has given me a chance to see a different lifestyle (and further soldified my feeling that California is the best state in the Union [Wink] ).

C) I also had the option of getting my A.A. degree at the same time as my high school diploma. I deliberately chose to not fulfil the A.A. requirements by one class, rather than get the A.A. I did this because I knew that all of my college classes would transfer anyways, making me one class short of junior status, and because, by not completing my A.A. I could apply as an "entering freshman," which means that I was able to get an excellent scholarship that would not have been available had I gone in as a transfer student. Now, this may not be the case for you... however, it's something you might want to consider.

D) If you're that close to getting your A.A., then I would hope you've experienced a pretty wide variety of college-level courses - I know to get an A.A. at the college I attended, you had to take at least two courses from a number of different "groups" (history & philosophy, math & science, etc.). Which of these classes have you enjoyed the most, and which ones have you disliked? An A.A. is suppose to be the general education part of college, allowing you to decide which subjects you'd like to study in greater depth during your junior and senior years. So try to use the knowledge you've gained from those classes to help you decide not only what to major in, but also what type of class structure you like (big lectures or small discussions?) and what type of student body you want to study with. Different colleges often have a different emphasis on the learning process, and you'll enjoy your last two years in school a lot more if you find a school to match your tastes.

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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by pfresh85:
quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.

*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
Not necessarily, of course. Philosophy majors, on the other hand... [Wink]

Anyways, given two students of equal intelligence and creativity, would you rather take the one that just knows stuff you're planning on teaching him anyways, or the person who will learn the business stuff just as easily, but also has some knowledge about another subject which may or may not be helpful in the business, but at least gives him a more interesting character and a broader knowledge set?

The people I've talked to have all chosen the second applicant, with good reason, I think. The only classes I've been told to take to do well in business (and I've talked to around 20 business leaders by this point in my college career) are language courses (preferably Asian or Spanish) and sometimes a basic accounting or economics course.

Also, I think there is a selection bias in effect here: the people who tend to choose business majors over other subjects tend to not be the most creative people, and the business major track tends to not rigorously challenge students to develop their logic as much as say a math major would, or their writing ability as much as a philosophy major. At some school the business major is only one step up from Comm as a joke major. [Evil] This is a generalization, mind, so I'm not saying that there aren't good business programs anywhere, nor that there aren't creative and intellegent business majors. But interviewers can't know how creative, intellegent, or good at learning their applicants are, so they too need to generalize.

Also, I want to make it clear that I don't feel the same way about business school. Getting an MBA will teach you quite a bit of valuable information, and allow you to network quite a bit.

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Teshi
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Come to Canada!
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pfresh85
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I won't disagree that business is a joke major, but then at the same time I'd say most liberal arts degrees are joke majors as well. I think if we are going to go into a discussion of interesting character/creativity in a person (as far as getting a job goes), then it totally goes on a case by case (or individual by individual) basis. It's hard to make broad sweeping generalizations about it, since what may happen in one situation may not in another.
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blacwolve
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Jhai- I just want you to know that I'm reading this with great happiness. I'm a poli sci major and am perpetually worried about whether I'll be able to get a job, but I have a stat minor and hope to be fluent in Spanish when I graduate, so maybe I'm good.
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Jhai
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Edit: this is in response to pfresh's commment on liberal arts degrees:

I'm not saying that people should get liberal arts degrees (i.e. major in liberal arts), but that they should get liberal arts educations, which typically focus on developing good communication skills (writing and presenting) and getting a broad range of knowledge.

For instance, at my liberal arts college (and Raia's), students are required to take one physical science lab course, one other math/science course, one lit-based course, another lit or fine arts course, two courses in history/philosophy, two courses in a foreign language, and two courses in "Self-Expression" (p.e., music, theatre, journalism, etc). We're also required to take a course that is specifically devoted to writing at a high level to get our W certification, a course that teaches logical/quantitative reasoning (math courses, some science and econ courses, and Logic from the philosophy department) to get our Q certification, and a course that emphasizes presentations (typically the senior seminar of your major) to get S certification. These broad requirements develop students into well-rounded individuals with good communication skills, and businesses notice that.

(Boy, I sound like an ad for DePauw University. Dr. SL, come here! [Wink] )

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pfresh85
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Well my argument there would be that a good high school could give you most of that stuff. I know for a fact (as a history major with only 3 semesters left on my bachelor's degree) that I haven't learned a single thing in college about good communication skills or increasing my range of knowledge. Then again I went to a really good high school.

You sound like the type of person who would be pro-RHET1101 at UTD (RHET1101 is a generic class all freshmen must take that it supposed to teach you how school is in college, like how to properly present things, write things, do projects, etc.). I'm very anti-RHET1101, but then it's because I came in knowing these things and not needing to waste 4-5 hours of my life each week on it.

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Jhai
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Oh, I went to a really good high school too - lots of Asian students with obsessive study habits pushed up the level of the education. And, with the help of my high school, I was able to attend a local C.C., which allowed me to "enter" college with almost junior status. If I were required to take a course like your RHE1001 I'd be pissed as all heck.

But at DePauw you aren't forced to take College Writing I, or Speechmaking for Dummies, or anything like that. You are required to take a difficult course that focuses on writing at a high level (typically a lit course), but those courses should be a challenge to anybody. If you aren't up to the task, then there are lower courses, such as College Writing I and II to help prepare you to take a W course. Likewise, to get your Q certification, you can take Calc I, or you can take Differential Equations - it's your choice. People typically get their S certification in their senior seminar, which, again, is a pretty difficult course. For Economics (one of my majors), it involves writing five or six 15-page research papers over the course of a semester, and then presenting these research papers to your seminar class (which has no more than 12 students in it). Philosophy majors write a 50-100 page thesis over the course of two semesters and then have a two-hour presentation/oral examination by the whole philosophy staff.

The distribution requirements keep students from focusing only on the subjects that they're strongest in. Does UTD have large distribution requirements? If you're not learning as much in your college physics, math, lit, history, or philosophy classes as you did in high school, then there's a problem with the college itself. Just because there are bad colleges that don't fulfill their responsibility to teach students doesn't mean that the idea of a liberal arts education is an invalid one: that learning deeply (beyond even the "very good high school" level) about a broad range of subjects is a good thing.

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pH
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In defense of my major (marketing):

It really does depend on the school. My school requires courses in logic and business ethics as well as three philosophies, plus calculus, statistics, science, fine arts, religious studies...a lot of things, really. And since I'm in the honors certificate program, my requirements were even more strict.

So really, that sort of thing depends more on the school than anything else.

Go to school for what you feel like studying and what you think you'd want to have a job in.

-pH

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Icarus
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quote:
Originally posted by pfresh85:
quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.

*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
Wow.
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Jhai
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to pH:

Yes, I agree that there can be very good programs in business or business-related majors. And your school is probably known as a school that has a strong business department (or at least marketing degree), as well as making its students explore more fields than just business. Thus employers will be more likely to hire students from your school, as they can be fairly certain that they're getting high-quality "goods."

But I don't think that's true for all business majors, or even the majority of them. In general, I'd hire a philosophy major over a business major, because I know it's very, very difficult to graduate with a major in philosophy and not learn how to reason and write well. There's a lot of asymmetrical information in the job market (you know how good you are, but the interviewer doesn't), which is why a lot of "signaling" goes on - interviewers judge applicants on their grammar, dress, school, major, etc. as indicators of the ability of the person to do the job. Networking is also a result of this asymmetrical information: if an applicant is referred to you by someone you trust, then that's an indication that the person is a probably a good choice to hire.

If a school is failing to educate its students, like pfresh's seems to be, from his history majors comment, than I would be generally hesitant to hire from that school at all - even if some of its graduates are very good, I can't always know that from a simple interview and coverletter.

Edit: clearing up a confusing sentence (or two)

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Teshi
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quote:
I'd say most liberal arts degrees are joke majors as well.
Hogwash.
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pH
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I'd also like to say that I'm a huge fan of networking. It's gotten me some really awesome opportunities.

And I may have just found a new internship with an internet marketing company. [Smile] Not as cool as working for the record label, sure, but still with the flexible hours. Basically, I was told that if I end up doing it, I only take on the projects I want.

Unfortunately, I will probably not have that option in the real world. Slave labo-I mean, interning has its advantages.

-pH

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Dr Strangelove
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I am so printing out this thread and showing it to my dad. I think he sort of dissapointed that I am bored rather quickly by most things business related, since that is something of a passion for him. And incidently, I created this thread with the hope a discussion like this would occur. I did struggle with the decision to major in History as a direct result of people telling me that it would make me unhirable. My decision came pretty much when I said "screw that". History has always been my 'thing' and I'm not going to change that just because it's a business mans world. Heck, money isn't even all that important to me anyways. I just want to be able to travel.

Jhai, you seem to have some experience in the HR department. Are there any colleges which will draw attention on an application or interview just as a result of their names and reputations that you would recommend?

And as for my AA, yes I have had to take courses in psychology, history, political/social, physical science, biological science, etc, as well as a number of electives. This semester was (by choice) my business semester, taking Economics and Intro to Business. In both classes I am regularly in serious danger of falling asleep. Whereas in every historical course I've taken, the only reason I was bored was because I already knew much of the material. So that also reaffirmed my previous conclusion that business is boring. *braces for the storm of denunciation that will follow that statement*.

So by all means, continue with the hijacking. I find it immensly fascinating. But if anyone spontaneously thinks "I know the school for him!" that would be appeciated also. [Smile]

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Amanecer
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quote:
History is a very common undergraduate major for businesspeople and corporate executives. More obviously it's also common among librarians, journalists, museum workers . . .
I did over generalize; there are many jobs that you can get with a history major. However, I still think it wise to only seek out a history major if you want a job that that major will specifically prepare you for. I know multiple people who have graduated with liberal arts degrees in the past five years who decided on their degree based on their interests rather than what would prepare them for a job. All of them are working at jobs that don't even require a college degree: bookstore worker, day care worker, and a low level business job. They have all said to me that they wished they had picked a major that would have better prepared them for the job market. Their combined advice is what led me to get another major, because I know that I am not interested in any of the jobs for which a history major would specifically prepare me.

quote:
If a school is failing to educate its students, like pfresh's seems to be, from his history majors comment, than I would be generally hesitant to hire from that school at all - even if some of its graduates are very good, I can't always know that from a simple interview and coverletter.
I get very annoyed with pfresh's comments about UTD because it leads people to reach the above mentioned conclusions, that UTD is a bad school. He is correct that the history major here is far less than top notch. It is part of the Arts & Humanities School here and that is far from the focus of the school. UTD itself is very new. It only offered graduate degrees until 1975, and its first freshman class came in 1990. In that short time, it has made a very good name for itself in many areas. Most undergrads come to UTD as Computer Science, Engineer, Biology, or Business majors because those are the fields in which the school excels. The scholarships that pfresh and I have come partially from money donated from the local IT industries because they believe UTD will prepare students to come and work for them.

At a recent luncheon, I sat next to the dean of the Business school. He told me that UTD’s undergraduate Business program recently became ranked the second best in Texas. The MBA program is nationally recognized, and the business school is one of the leading universities in the country in regards to business research. Further, UTD recently received a grant to build a massive Nanotechnology laboratory because of its excellent biology programs. UTD’s chess team won the 2004 Intercollegiate Chess Championship Tournament, beating Harvard and every other team in America. UTD has plenty of things to take pride in. Just because the Arts & Humanities school is not one of them, that doesn't mean people should give UTD a bad name.

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Dr Strangelove
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I don't quite understand how you can be interested in a field of study such as history and not be interested in any of the jobs which stem from it. Even if its only journalism or librarian or teacher or lawyer or archeologist or something along those lines. If you're interested enough in it to not change your major in college, then it stands to reason you can find something in that field to pursue as a career. Or at least go to graduate school to make yourself more hirable. Or accept another job while searching for something more applicable. I just don't understand that. But then, perhaps I am abnormal. When my mom picked up my first copy of the histories of Herodotus at a yard sale I spent the next 3 days reading it. And I was 9 at the time. For my last birthday my sister got me a "historical yardstick" which extended to six feet and had all of the important historical facts and dates on one side and the different era's on the other side. One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. I have 3 copies of the complete works of Josephus on my bookshelves (which consist of 3/4 of my room). People randomly come up to me and say "Hey, do you like Josephus? Here's his complete works". Chaucer and Beowulf were my bedtime companions in middle school. Livy, Cicero, Seneca, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine ... my companions through highschool. When asked to do a presentation on a pop culture icon, I chose Napoleon Bonaparte on the grounds that he influenced much of our current America (Lousiana Purchase and all). So perhaps I am a bit of a freak. But pardon me if I don't spend 2 years and thousands of dollars studying something I have not the remotest interest in, while I could be studying my passion.
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pfresh85
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
I get very annoyed with pfresh's comments about UTD because it leads people to reach the above mentioned conclusions, that UTD is a bad school.

I thought most of my comments were very history specific, with the exception of pointing out that a broad "liberal arts" education wasn't a college only thing. I will agree with you: UTD does quite well with CS and EE (and to some extent Business, although it'll be forever and a day before it trumps UT-Austin). My complaints in this thread have been directed mainly at the Arts & Humanities department and any general requirement of sorts. They are all sub-high school leve in terms of difficulty and intellectual challenge/stimulation, and they shouldn't really be college classes in my opinion. I know you'll disagree with me though, since you and I have had the pro-UTD vs anti-UTD argument before. [Razz]

EDIT: Just to make sure I'm clear, I'll say UTD is one of the best schools (if not the best school) in the state of Texas if you want to do CS or EE. It's also up there if you want to do business of any kind. Those programs are the ones that get most of UTD's attention and money. My complaints against UTD are all against the Arts & Humanities (among other non-academic complaints). Amanecer should know what I'm talking about, although it wouldn't surprise me if she disagrees.

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Jhai
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Dr. Strangelove, I don't have any experience in HR - I'm still in college! [Smile]

But I'm in a couple of programs at my university that bring into direct contact with DePauw's huge alum network - and these people aren't just cubicle workers. I had lunch last Thursday with Tim Solso, CEO of Cummins, which does billions of dollars of sales in 60 different countries. A question that often comes up with these businesspeople is how to distinguish yourself from the pack of college grads. Everyone has mentioned foreign language as an important skill to have, and other things mentioned have been basic accounting and economics skills, the ability to communicate effectively in writing and speech, and the ability to learn. No one has ever said that a business or econ major is needed to get a job - most, in fact, have emphasized that they want a student who has a broad range of knowledge, the ability to apply that knowledge, and the ability to learn - major doesn't matter. They have said, however, to major in the things that excite you intellectually - the jobs will follow. Business leaders said this, mind, not hippies or anything like that. [Wink]

Of course, a major is only part of the whole package. You can get the best liberal arts education in the world, but lose out in the interview to someone who has had multiple internships in that specific industry. Internships and networking are key to getting a job after graduation (if you're still reading this, blacwolve, try to get an internship for this summer - and start looking now). However, all other things being equal, I've been told point blank that some companies, at least, would prefer to hire a humanities major from a liberal arts college over a business major from State U.

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Amanecer
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pfresh- we have had this argument before, and I really don't think we disagree as much as you think. While there are several exceptions, I agree that many of the history classes here are lacking in intellectual challenge/stimulation. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm disagreeing with your method of expressing them. I don't think you realize the effect that your posts have. When you publicly bash the program and say things like "hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning", it is unsuprising that people come away with the general impression that UTD is a bad school. I think that this is untrue and that you are doing a great disservice to every UTD student when you continue to say these things. If you hate UTD so much that you can't help but tear it down every chance you get, I think you should transfer schools. If you instead choose to stay here, and choose to be at UTD knowing full well what it's good at and what it's bad at, I think you should choose to refrain from diminishing our school in the eyes of others.

Dr. Stranglove- It sounds like History is totally your thing and that you would enjoy many of the jobs associated with it. I was not trying to attack your decision, but just ask why you were doing it. To me, it sounds like you are doing it for very good reasons. [Smile]

Since you asked about me, I guess I'll share. I'm not as passionate about anything as much as it sounds like you are about history. When I was applying to colleges, I felt like I was pretty good at a lot of things. I like learning. About the only subject I didn't enjoy in high school was science, and I think that was because I took regular instead of AP because I didn't want to over burden myself with all AP classes. I did however, enjoy my history classes more than any of my other classes. Having no idea what I wanted to do career wise, I decided to major in history. For my first two years, I went through a couple of different ideas of what I wanted to major in. At different times I thought, history, psych, and/or government Through all of these majors, I was interested in the subject, but could not picture myself in any specific job associated with them. Last year, I decided that I was going to major in Business Finance. While I do find it interesting, I don't find it as interesting as the other fields. However, for the first time I can see myself pursuing a career in this field and that makes me feel like I've made the correct choice. The reason why I haven't dropped the history major, is because when I made this decision I was 12 hours away from finishing my history major (now 9). I'm so close to finishing, that it would be ridiculous to throw away all of that work. I also have a psych minor from this whole thing. If I didn't have a scholarship, I would definately feel as though I 'd wasted a lot of money with my changing plans. This is why I posted the initial comment asking why you were doing it. If it was the same reasons as me, I would warn you against it. However, you seem to be incredibly passionate and from what you've said, I'd imagine you'd be unhappy if you majored in anything else.

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Amanecer
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I feel bad about hijacking your thread with my UTD talk, so I tried researching the best history programs. Since undergrad history departments aren't ranked and grad history departments are, I think it's reasonable to assume that if a school has a good grad program it probably has a good undergrad program. According to US News & World Report, the top three history programs are Yale, Princeton, and University of California Berkeley. Since I'm not paying for the premium edition, I can't see beyond the top three. But I bet your school counselor has a copy of US News & World Report that you could look at if you wanted to see the rest. I hope that's helpful. [Smile]
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pH
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I have the premium edition for grad schools. [Razz] So if you want to know anything specific, let me know.

I go nuts comparing these things. I made a ridiculously long Livejournal post comparing various graduate business programs by average entering gpa, GMAT score, starting salary, percentage employed at graduation, etc.

I think I have an obsession.

-pH

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blacwolve
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I'm applying for at least one this summer, I'm trying to find more, but there aren't that many available that are paid in the political science field. The government seems to be inordinately fond of the words "valuable work experience" and much less fond of the words "paid internship." I really can't afford not to earn money this summer, so I need something that pays living expenses at the very least.
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ambyr
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Oh, more relevant to the question at hand than my last post. . . .

One way I can think of to evaluate the history programs at the schools you're looking at, Dr. Strangelove, would be to try and get your hands on a couple of undergraduate history thesis from each school. Maybe they post them on-line, or maybe the department head has some s/he'd be willing to send you, or if you're doing school visits maybe you can take a peek into the department library. They'd give you a good picture of how far the professors are willing to push the students and how much students learn from the program by its end.

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ambyr
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quote:
The government seems to be inordinately fond of the words "valuable work experience" and much less fond of the words "paid internship."
Most of the federal agencies offer paid summer internships, if you're willing to work there. If you're set on working for Congress or the White House, you may indeed be pretty much out of luck.

Err, where geographically are you looking for internships, anyway?

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Icarus
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It doesn't matter which is the top grad school, because you won't get it. [Razz]
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pH
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I seem to recall some government internship programs in DC that offered housing and a stipend...

How much help is your school being in your search?

-pH

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pfresh85
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
pfresh- we have had this argument before, and I really don't think we disagree as much as you think. While there are several exceptions, I agree that many of the history classes here are lacking in intellectual challenge/stimulation. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm disagreeing with your method of expressing them. I don't think you realize the effect that your posts have. When you publicly bash the program and say things like "hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning", it is unsuprising that people come away with the general impression that UTD is a bad school. I think that this is untrue and that you are doing a great disservice to every UTD student when you continue to say these things. If you hate UTD so much that you can't help but tear it down every chance you get, I think you should transfer schools. If you instead choose to stay here, and choose to be at UTD knowing full well what it's good at and what it's bad at, I think you should choose to refrain from diminishing our school in the eyes of others.

The comment you quoted of mine was poking fun at all history majors, not at just UTD history majors (I figured that was clear since I said history majors and didn't mention UTD in taht post).

As for telling me not to say my opinions in public for fear of diminishing the school, I say maybe it needs to be diminished. People like me get suckered in by tours and large scholarships. There needs to be a more vocal minority like me to make sure that people looking into the school don't get just a "UTD is peachy" view. As for transferring, we've had this discussion. You know I would if it wasn't for the scholarship issue. I think UTD is a lackluster school (aside from the three majors we've already listed numerous times), and I think that should be made clear (so that other intelligent folks don't get suckered in by smooth talks from tours and honors teachers and large scholarships).

Sorry to hijack your thread, Dr. Strangelove. If you want to discuss this further, Amanecer, you know how to really get hold of me.

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ambyr
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To be more specific, if you want a federal job, check out http://www.studentjobs.gov/.
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pH
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pfresh, there are displeased students at every school. It's not as though the school is really TRICKING you into going there. How many students did you talk to before you applied? How many professors? That made a huge difference for me.

-pH

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