posted
I hear a lot of you saying that Happy Holidays is just an all-encompassing greeting, which includes any December/Winter holiday. I used to agree. I would say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, depending. Now, though, I feel it is a deliberate move to replace Merry Christmas with Happy Holidays--not as an all-encompassing greeting, but solely to avoid offending anyone PC enough to get riled up from being wished a Merry Christmas. The result has been people who celebrate Christmas being unable to wish each other a Merry Christmas, unless they check first to make sure no one is around to be offended. Offices pass down the law that the word Christmas is not to be uttered, as do retail establishments.
I work for a public institution, and we have to be careful not to call our Holiday party a Christmas party. That's fine. But what we get is coworkers who are timid about wishing each other Merry Christmas. I volunteered to take care of the music for the party, but I'm thinking I'll just let the restaurant pump music into our room because the dilemma of how to find holiday music that doesn't mention religion or now even Santa Claus is too daunting.
But my real problem is that retail stores are clamoring for their share of Christmas shopping. It's a big season for them financially, and it is all about sell sell sell. Fact is, Christmas is known for gift giving. Kids wake up to a zillion presents under the tree (the Christmas tree, I might add). It's a huge market, and stores aren't going to mention Christmas to me in their ads? Am I missing something? Are there big gift-giving traditions in the other holidays? I know that there is Hannakuh giving, but is it anywhere near the scale of the overdone Christmas giving?
That's not to say I want there to be a decree from the corporations that all of their employees need to wish us a Merry Christmas. I want them to shut up about it, and let their employees say what they want to. Then if someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas gets wished a Merry Christmas, I want them to be graceful enough to say Happy Holidays or whatever they want back--or even politely say, I don't celebrate Christmas, but a Merry Christmas to you. And if someone who does celebrate Christmas gets wished a Happy Holidays or a Happy Hannakuh, or Ramadan or Kwanza or whatever, to be graceful enough to say Thank you and wish them a happy whatever back.
I'm not going to pretend that Christmas doesn't exist, and I don't expect others to pretend that their holidays don't exist.
And finally... most people I know celebrate Christmas. The ones I know who DON'T celebrate Christmas are Christians who believe that it is a pagan holiday. At most, they might have a toned-down Christian version of the holiday. To me, this isn't about taking Christ out of the holiday. If He's in it, He's not put there by stores or offices or any other establishment. If Christ is in the holiday, it's a personal thing for families and that can't be taken away. It's about changing the name of the holiday for stupid PC reasons.
I know plenty of people who celebrate Christmas who aren't Christians, and some who give lip service to Christianity, and some who are dedicated Christians. Christmas is a religious holiday?? Coulda fooled me. Frankly, if you're a religion other than Christian, why not celebrate Christmas anyway? You get tons of gifts, and it's not like there's anything sacred about the holiday (unless you want there to be).
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I back up Verily on this issue. I'm an atheist who loves Christmas and delights in telling his Jewish coworker "Merry Christmas" because it's so delightfully ironic that we are both cool with the holiday. Irritatingly, the new head of business operations at the charter school where I work, an atheist like me (but of a militant bent), insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).
I'd love to hear it called "Yuletide," however. Has a nice ring to it.
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I should start wishing people a Happy Festivus .
But what can I, as an atheist leaning agnostic celebrate this time of year? Well, one thing which stands out is that there is the Winter Solstice right near Christmas. It looks like the 22nd this year. Being the shortest day of the year, I can certainly celebrate the fact that my days will be getting longer and longer for the next six months. That should be enough cause for me to celebrate .
Of course there are most likely many different peoples that celebrate the solstice. I wonder if there is any group who does it in a secular manner...
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Of course there are most likely many different peoples that celebrate the solstice. I wonder if there is any group who does it in a secular manner...
I would say that most of the America already does. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Katarain, where have you seen anyone here saying that specific Hannakah, Kwanza, or Ramadan greetings are okay but "Merry Christmas" is not?
The whole point of businesses encouraging employees to say "Happy Holidays" is to NOT preference one over the others.
And there is a big difference between a business, or a school, asking employees to use a specific greeting when speaking as a representative of the store or school talking to customers or students and the ridiculous examples people are mentioning of getting "in trouble" for being overheard saying "Merry Christmas" in a private conversation. Can anyone point to ONE example of that actually happening, or is it just some posters' exagerated paranoia/hyperbole?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Katarin said above that her coworkers have become afraid of saying "Merry Christmas" to each other...
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).
I don't understand how you think it's right for the school to exclude students just because they only make up like 10% of the population.
---
Honestly, I think that this whole thing is a little bit silly on both sides, but with the history and the makeup of our country, I'm much more inclined to come down on the side of the people that get offended by everything being about Christmas than the people who think that including people who don't celebrate Christmas into things means that you're being anti-Christian.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Katarin said above that her coworkers have become afraid of saying "Merry Christmas" to each other...
I know she said that. I'm asking if they have any basis for that fear, or if they're exagerating it. Has anyone ever been reprimanded for such a thing?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:The whole point of businesses encouraging employees to say "Happy Holidays" is to NOT preference one over the others.
If that were true, and I used to think it was, then I'd be okay with it. But it certainly seems like it's not the case.
And my coworkers aren't "afraid." I WAS exaggerating. But there have been similar conversations.
This whole thing annoys me. Stores want my Christmas dollars, but won't admit it. They say Happy Holidays, but everybody knows what they really mean=Buy your Christmas gifts HERE. After all, they're using traditional christmas decorations, aren't they? And one of the things that bothers me is that non-Christmas celebrators (Or, as I suspect is more often the case... Christian-hating Christmas celebrators) get so offended when they hear someone say Merry Christmas.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I'm much more inclined to come down on the side of the people that get offended by everything being about Christmas
This is exactly the attitude that annoys ME. Celebrating Christmas isn't mandatory, but they just happen to live in a country where most people celebrate it. Would I go to an Islamic country and complain about celebrations they have? Would I go to Canada and complain about their emphasis on the Canadian Thanksgiving rather than the American one? Uhh... No.
There is nothing to be offended about. Everything being about Christmas?! Yeah, well, we are celebrating it, and you choose not to participate. That's fine. But getting offended by it? That's just plain stupid.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
A Jewish comedian came to our school and said that it's okay to wish your Jewish friends a Merry Christmas. Usually he gets a "Merry !... shit." And no one wants to be wished a merry shit.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I am a Jew, and do not celebrate Christmas. I am not bothered when people wish me a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holiday, or Happy Channukah, or A Nice Day. These are all meant in a friendly way, and are not intended to offend, and no offense is taken.
If someone wishes me a whatever, I will smile warmly, and say "You too!" It is SO not worth my time and energies getting worked up about it.
And as for shopping experiences, if the store has what I want, at a good price, and I don't have to wait in line forever to pay for it, I leave satisfied, no matter how the poor cashier greets me. If not, I leave unsatisfied no matter what the poor cashier says.
Who the heck is going to Wal-Mart for a dose of religion? You want religion, go to church. You want a good deal on shopping, go to Wal-Mart.
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: A Jewish comedian came to our school and said that it's okay to wish your Jewish friends a Merry Christmas. Usually he gets a "Merry !... shit." And no one wants to be wished a merry shit.
This would happen when you wish a Jewish friend a Merry Christmas out of habit (because you say it to everyone), but stop midway, not wanting to offend, because you just remember that that person doesn't celebrate Christmas. He's saying he'd rather have the greeting.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).
I don't understand how you think it's right for the school to exclude students just because they only make up like 10% of the population.
I'm guessing Catholic school. Or Rhode Island. Which is more like 65% Catholic overall. In the former case you certainly should be able to say Merry Christmas.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I would be insulted if someone suggested that my (atheist) meaning of 'Christmas' was somehow less important than a Christian's.
And the word "Holiday" is only slightly less denominational in the way that in all its original forms it referred to a religious holiday, either "holy" or "hal-" being the earlier word meaning saint or holy personnage.
Even Yule, although used often to mean the winter season, is connected with religion (both Christian and Pre-Christian/Pagan). Although I have to admit Yule is a lot less denominational than "holiday".
Even the "mas" of saying something like "Wintermas" has Christian connotations.
"Winterday" might work. "Midwinter's Day" also would: "Midwinter", "Solsticeday" etc.
Personally, I'm in favour of celebrating "Midwinter" as a universal celebration of the winter season. I do not see this happening in my lifetime or the lifetime of my hypothetical grandchildren, however. People would percieve it as an attack on Christmas. I believe the search for a celebration we can all participate in during the winter is important, simply because so-named Christmas, as well as any of Winter celebrations of the same period, is a beautiful time of year to celebrate.
I would happily change "Christmas" to "Midwinter". It wouldn't change anything for me.
Never going to happen though.
And I would describe Thanksgiving as a religious holiday in the way that it's usually interpreted as thanking a great power for the harvest, rather than the earth or something like that.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I would happily add an extra secular festival called, let's say, Winterfair. Could we have it in January or Febuary, though? There's a serious dearth of festivites in those months.
Maybe we could just really ramp up the celebration of Presidents Day or MLK Day.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The problem with having Winterfair in January or February is that by then, people are sick of winter and are looking forward to the spring.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I wonder if there is a historical reason for a lack of festivals during January and February. Perhaps it was just too much of a hassle to travel during the winter months.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
In the context of my current job, I'd be more than happy to cancel Christmas simply because I'd like to be able to take those five days off at some other time of year -- in addition to the statutory holiday, my company gives us five "vacation" days that can only be used at Christmastime. I would much prefer to have taken those days in the summer. However, I recognize that I also have other reasons for wanting to cancel Christmas this year in particular.
As to this whole "debate," I can't say that I care one way or the other. I think that if you're offended by Merry Christmas, you're oversensitive; I also think that Happy Holidays is not part of an insidious assault on Christianity.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I actually get six days if you include the statutory (federal) holiday, which normally falls on Christmas Day.
Those five days are part of a set of seventeen "RDOs." There's one RDO each month (that you can schedule whenever, but only within the month) and five at Christmastime that are assigned. I put "vacation" in quotes because all of this is on top of actual vacation time (which doesn't have these sorts of restrictions). Some companies assign all seventeen days so that you essentially get every third Friday off, rather than one per month and five at Christmas. In my experience, both practices are not uncommon in my industry -- but I have no idea how common it is in other industries in Canada.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
They didn't have any problem with the goddess Pomona, which is the largest symbol on the LA seal. Only with the tiny cross off to the side.
About Happy Holidays: this only became an issue recently. We've been saying that to each other since, well, before I can remember. The difference now is that some organizations are setting policy forbidding references to Christmas. Excluding references is exclusive, by definition of "exclude," and it's the issue.
Wish me a Happy Hanukah or a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, and I'll be happy to hear it, but don't tell me what *I* should say.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I get from Christmas Eve through New Year's Day off with pay. Of course, I work for a Catholic college that literally shuts down over that period, and I'm still technically on call if our webservers go down or something over break, so YMMV.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Wow. I get almost no time off. Besides my limited vacation days, I get eight days off per year -- New Years, Memorial, Independence, Labor, 2 for Thanksgiving, and 2 for Christmas.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Yeah, I have to be on call for at least one of the XRDOs, and at least one person from our group has to be on call every weekend (including holidays).
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: The difference now is that some organizations are setting policy forbidding references to Christmas. Excluding references is exclusive, by definition of "exclude," and it's the issue.
Wish me a Happy Hanukah or a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, and I'll be happy to hear it, but don't tell me what *I* should say.
I strongly suspect that such policies are dealing with official corporate/governmental references only, and thus are perfectly within the rights of the entity establishing the policy. There's nothing wrong with standardizing corporate conduct. I'd be very surprised at a corporation actually forbidding an employee from uttering "Merry Christmas" in a personal situation. Requiring sales clerks to say "Happy Holidays" verbatim is no different than requiring employees to say "WelcometoMcDonaldsmayItakeyour order" verbatim instead of "Yo, whatcha want" or whatever else they'd prefer to say.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
There was quite a controversy over the Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas thing here in Ottawa a few years ago. I wasn't here at the time, but I think there was even a city bylaw that stated that Christmas could only be known as "Holiday" or something. My brother was working at a health-food store at the time, and his boss gave him strict instructions not to say Merry Christmas.
He purposely did it anyway, of course, and the customers would thank him for it.
The controversy died down afterwards. I think they got rid of the bylaw, if my memory is correct and there even was any such thing.
Posts: 609 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I get Dec. 23, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, Jan. 2, 3, and 4. Plus weekends--but I always have weekends. So I guess that's 9 vacation days.
Plus, I get 12 vacation days a year (2 or 3 of which have to be used for certain holidays the university takes over the gov. mandated holidays) and government holidays and 8 sick days a year.
posted
I do not have enough vacation days, and I have to go back to Dallas on the 27th because I used all my vacation days in Paris and New York.
However, they also do not count personal or sick days. Don't abuse it, but you can take personal days for things you need to get done, and it isn't recorded. I often leave early on Tuesdays for school because of this, and I'm very grateful.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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"All I want for the Holidays are my two front teeth..."
Nope, doesn't quite cut it. And after shopping last weekend, I would have been far too tempted to grant people their wish.
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I used all my vacation days in Paris and New York.
My heart bleeds for you.
I only get Monday the 26th and Monday the 2nd off (since the holidays are on the weekend.) But the plant where Chris works closes down from Christmas to New Year's so I'm taking vacation time to be off with him.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Wow. I get almost no time off. Besides my limited vacation days, I get eight days off per year -- New Years, Memorial, Independence, Labor, 2 for Thanksgiving, and 2 for Christmas.
Well, you've got me beat. I have off New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day. Six holiday days off for the whole company.
By the way, my kid goes to a Jewish School, and he always has school on Christmas Day. Even this year, when it is on a Sunday. However, he gets off for a ton of Jewish holidays, especially in the fall.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
As a member of the LDS church, we don't believe that Jesus was born on or around Christmas time, but in the spring. Although many other Christians are aware of the Roman/pagan connection to the origin of the holiday , I doubt most are. So Christmas isn't even a holy day for me. Additionally, rather than focus on celebration of his birth, His atonement and resurrection are so much more important to Mormons. However, I do enjoy the spirit of the season in which people generally try to be more charitible, loving, and caring and Christians in particular focus on the Savior. If it was just a Christian holiday, I'd just as soon celebrate it all around Easter.
That being said, Christmas to me has a more traditional significance. I enjoy the candy canes, lights, trees, treats, Santa Claus myths, yummy treats, falling snow outside while being warm inside (not trying to be anti-pro-inclusive with you Florida and SoCal folks), and especially meeting with family. I greatly dislike the commercialization. To me, that has taken more out of the meaning of Christmas than the ACLU has.
I guess my point is that I hate to see our holidays neutered to make them more politically correct. Wherever I've been I've always enjoyed the culture and traditions of the people there. Saying our American Christmas holiday is Christian is like saying Halloween is Wiccan. Stop trying to make all our holidays into Labor Day equivalents.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:As a member of the LDS church, we don't believe that Jesus was born on or around Christmas time, but in the spring.
Symbolically, that makes a lot of sense, but I don't see anyone giving up Christmas Carols . In The Bleak Midwinter just doesn't have the same meaning when applied to drippy old February.
Despite being an atheist I am totally fascinated by Carols, candles, advent, and all the traditional trappings of the event. I am also fond of the Baby Jesus story. I don't mind people wish me a Merry Christmas because to me Christmas is the name of my celebration, that's all.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think a lot of Christians are aware that it is more likely that Jesus was born in the spring. And we are aware of the pagan solstice celebrations.
Since we can't know the actual day, isn't it a lovely symbol to celebrate light coming into the world during the darkest time of the year?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I was just going to mention that for my half of my wife's family (still in Argentina), and other South American countries, they celebrate things quite a bit differently--rather like our 4th of July with fireworks, parties, dances, and barbeques.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
So what everybody is implying is that Christmas has already gone to public domain, and that Christians have, sorry, already lost their hold on that brand.
Consider this, there are two main forces in the Republican Party--the Social Conservative/Religious Right and the Big Money Corporate Interests. While President Bush has given a lot of lip service to the Religious Right, he hasn't always followed through. However he has done more than many Republican congressmen who have found themselves bought by these big money interests.
Before you yell, yes, Democrats have been bought too. However, this is a Republican internal matter.
What this push for Christmas in the Workplace is about is an powerplay by some Christian Conservative leaders to show that they, not the big-business money men--have the true power.
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