I think that your post makes a great deal of sense. Please, though, bear in mind that when some of us describe some of the positions you list as "un-Christian" it is because we believe that they are, and we are rather desperately fighting to keep some Christians from defining Christianity for the rest of us.
I am afraid that we are losing. Even in your post you talk about "Christian views" as if we all held a single view on those things. We don't . I hope that would clear, at least to someone who spends time here.
While I don't believe that exempts me from responsibility for what people do in the name of Chrisianity (any more than my disagreement with the US government policies exempts me from responsibility for that), please believe that some of us are trying to do better.
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quote:I wonder if there is a historical reason for a lack of festivals during January and February. Perhaps it was just too much of a hassle to travel during the winter months.
I expect that historically February has been a time when food was running low, which isn't really when you want to be throwing a big feast.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: While I don't believe that exempts me from responsibility for what people do in the name of Chrisianity (any more than my disagreement with the US government policies exempts me from responsibility for that), please believe that some of us are trying to do better.
I do. Honestly, I do. But it's the ones who aren't that are the loudest voices.
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quote:And the food you do have is the food you're sick of by now.
yeah, you might start turning those rotten potatoes you've been eating for six months into some kind of, I don't know, doll head with changeable eyes, ears, mouths, and hats.
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quote: I do. Honestly, I do. But it's the ones who aren't that are the loudest voices.
I know. Scares me, too. But you could help by not adding your voice to theirs when they try to represent all of Christianity. Don't buy it!
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posted
Jon Stewart had a couple of clips on the show the other night that were hysterical.
Clip of O'Reilley Factor, Bill O'Reilly: I don't believe most people who aren't Chritian are offended by "Merry Christmas." I think those people are nuts. I think you're crazy if you're offended by the words Merry Christmas.
Cut to Jon Stewart.
Jon Stewart: I actually agree with that. I think they're just words. Merry Christmas. I think it's innocuous. I don't think there's really any way that a sane person can be offeneded by a silly two word phrase. You know what Mr. O'Reilly? You're a reasonable man.
Clip of O'Reilly Factor, guest Philip Nulman says: Seasons Greetings and Happy Holidays, Bill, does not offend Christians.
We got it in church again on Sunday. "So many people are trying to take Christ out of Christmas." Felt a little ironic to me. I mean the people who are Christian and are really celebrating Christ's birth aren't trying to take Christ out of Christmas; and those who aren't Christian and celebrate Santa Day anyway aren't trying to take Christ out of Christmas, because for them it never was a religious holiday; and the stores are neutral, they don't care what you celebrate as long as you buy from them.
A reminder at Church of what this holy day is all about is fine. What's ridiculous is intolerance of the fact that not everybody considers it a holy day. Doesn't bother me to be wished Season's Greetings. I don't expect to be wished "God bless you" by everyone I meet every day, even though I hope He will! It's the forcing of people one way or the other - either to say Merry Christmas or to ban them from saying it - that is offensive.
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I for one think much of the argument is silly. The ones doing all the changing are businesses and companies. Does it really matter what they think? They aren't out to effect social change, they're out to absolve themselves of discrimination liabilities and to make sure they get more butts in their stores buying crap.
I wish everyone I know a Merry Christmas. Am I assuming they're Christian? Maybe, but I've never heard an angry reply before. Just the other day I wished a girl a Merry Christmas, and she replied, smiling, "And a Happy Hannakuh to you." I smiled back and laughed.
I'll continue to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Even if they aren't of another religion, the 25th is still Christmas, whether you like it or not, what problem does anyone have with me wanting you to have a nice day on the 25th? If you don't want to, then bah humbug, that's your business.
Further, regardless of what religion you are, Christmas IS a part of American culture, in the same way that Star Wars is a part of American culture (under the subheading of pop culture, but still culture). It doesn't matter if you like Star Wars, it's still there. Same thing with Christmas.
I honestly don't see how anyone can be offended by Merry Christmas. On the same note, I wouldn't at all be offended by Happy Hannakuh, Happy Holidays, Joyeaux Noel, Feliz Navidad, or any other form of well wishing for the season. Were someone to wish me a Happy Holiday to be PC, I would find it highly amusing, but certainly would not be offended.
Just say whatever feels right.
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posted
Sorry guys, but I just scanned through this and haven’t read the entire thing so you may have covered this.
The reason Christians get upset about people saying “happy holidays” is because we are tired of being marginalized and told we are offensive. It’s just one more thing in the long line of the politically correct pushing us out of society. No prayer in school, no ten commandments in the court room, they what to take God out of the pledge of allegiance and now there’s no “Christ” in “Christmas”. So some people get upset. For a lot of reasons these things are gone or going away, so we will either have to learn to accept it or find a way to make them relevant to the vast majority of this country again.
I personally feel the people who get upset about this either way are really focusing on the wrong things.
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posted
I always assumed Happy Holidays meant a combination of everything including New Years and Thanksgiving.
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posted
I don't know SC, I'm a Christian, but I think it made perfect sense to take God out of the pledge, seeing as how it was added way after the fact, and also makes perfect sense to take the 10 commandments out of the courtroom, seeing as how what, 8 out of 10 of the commandments aren't even laws, and never have been. And prayer in school is skirting the line towards state sponsorship of religion, and either way, it makes non-Christian kids feel left out, and school is the last place you want to do that.
Those things aren't just political correctness. But all this removal of the word Christmas from everywhere, they might have a reason to be annoyed, though I personally find it much more amusing than offensive.
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quote: The reason Christians get upset about people saying “happy holidays” is because we are tired of being marginalized and told we are offensive.
When did we start marginalizing Christians in this country? I must not have been paying attention. Maybe I was distracted by all the atheist senators, pagan festivals, and noontime calls to Allah.
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posted
My point is that Christianity was once involved in every part of this culture, and now it is not. I don't necessarily think all of it is bad, but it makes people who were used to it, feel like they are loosing control. That is why they get upset.
When you tell some one that saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive then, you are telling them their religion is offensive.
I would say Christmas is not even remotely a Christian holiday to most people. It’s not about going to church and/or reflecting on the birth of Christ; it’s about a fat man in a red suit.
pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…
Don't get me wrong I like Santa Claus, Halloween and the rest of it. I just think this culture is a lot less Christian than people make it out to be. Especially once you get past the face value of things.
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posted
See, the point is that we shouldn't, as Christians, have control.
And how on earth are 70-some percent of the population going to be "marginalized"? All that is happening is that people are making an attempt to stop marginalizing everybody else.
And holidays named after saints can safely be classed in the "christian" category.
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quote:pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…
That would be--All Saints Eve, The Celebration of and preparation for Lent, St. Valentines Day, and a sporting event. Yep, all heathen parties there.
The problem you have with such Pagan festivals losing their Christian concepts is that they are opened up to market forces which by their nature are inclusive. The open market says, "lets get as many people as possible to buy our stuff and our liquor and celbrate in our cities." not "Lets just keep this a nice Christian celebration."
The more you have stores call it Christmas, the more you genericize the word Christmas to include non-believers emphasising Santa Claus.
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quote: And how on earth are 70-some percent of the population going to be "marginalized"?
I am sure if you ask people if they are Christians, then at least 70% will respond yes, just like if you ask them if they always wear their seatbelts or if they don't drink and drive they will give the “right” answer. But I would be willing to bet a large portion of those who say they are Christians don’t have a true Biblical based faith. They more likely believe in some sort of God and spirituality which may or may not affect their lives at all.
I don’t claim to be able to say who is and isn’t a Christian, that is between them and God, and I don’t really want to get into a big discussion on if we can tell if someone is a Christian. But if you are a Christian then there should be some sort of indication in your life beyond your words. Going to church more than twice a year, or meeting with other Christians in some sort of fellowship, praying or reading their Bible regularly, doing community service or doing anything that shows their faith affects their life.
So I don’t really think that this country is 70% Christian, even right here in the heart of the Bible Belt, I don’t think we come close to it.
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quote:All Saints Eve, The Celebration of and preparation for Lent
Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.
There is nothing christian about how any of the things I listed are celebrated. Just becuase Valentines day was named after a Saint doesn't make it's modern version is Christain. Thats like saying L.A. is a Christian city becuase it was named after Angels. Besides V-day is more for the greating card industry anyway, like Mothers, Fathers and grand parents day.
And if you don't think the Super bowl is a nation wide celibratrion then you must be out of the country when it goes on.
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posted
So my point that we are in considerably less danger of being marginalized than other religions have been in for generations...?
And perhaps, if we weren't so concerned with propagating Christianity, our holidays (and they are ours) might not be so watered-down.
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quote: Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.
Your not serious, are you? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Most Christian holidays were moved around so they would occur on pagan holidays.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.
She got all up in arms because she thought I said it because my work (JCPenney) wouldn't allow me to say Merry Christmas.....she didin't ask me if that was the case, though, she just got all worked up about it.
She got even more disgruntled when I told her it was MY choice of words, not the company..and at that very moment the store manager came on the loudspeaker wishing everyone a wonderful Christmas season.
quote: Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.
Your not serious, are you? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Most Christian holidays were moved around so they would occur on pagan holidays.
Marti Gras/Carnival was started as an excuse to party as much as possible before lent started.
Yes, I know most Christain holidays were move or created to cover esisting pagen holidays. I used to wonder how much of this actually happened, but look at how many churches have “Fall feastivals” now instead of Halloween carnivals.
You may be right for Halloween I don't know which came first; Halloween or All saints day.
My point was niether are Christian holidays
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.
So did she want you to wish a Merry Christmas to people who dob't celebrate Christmas or did she expect you to be able to correctly guess that she did?
Shouldn't good wishes (like gifts) be tailored to fit the recipient? And, like with gifts, when in doubt, giving greetings that are "one-size-fits-all" makes a certain amount of sense.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I disagree. Your point was that non-Christian made up holidays to counter Christian holidays, which is exactly the opposite of what happened. Christians co-opted pagan holidays by moving their holidays to coincide with the pagan holidays, making the transition to Christianity more palatable. All Saints Day was moved from May to November.
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posted
I believe I admitted I may have been wrong about Halloween. (Which I know is something that rarely happens on this forum) But I maintain that Marti Gras was a reaction to Lent.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
No. Easter was originally the spring harvest festival, which Christians decided to incorporate into their religion. Mardi Gras was was usually a circus like event held in mid-February to honor Lupercus. Surprisingly, the 12th night of Christmas (aka Feast of the Epiphany) is on January 6th, which, wait for it, was the original date for the season of Carnivals.
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posted
The important part of my post is "by Christians." It is not a reaction to Lent by, for example, Buddhists.
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I don't doubt that we "converted" every holiday that we could get our hands on. I also don't think that recognizing this makes them less Christian. To Christians. We just need to remember the debt that we owe to other traditions.
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posted
I've got no problems with it at all. I just didn't like the inference that non-Christians created holidays to counter the Christian holidays by SC Carver is all. Sorry.
And Merry Christmas. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Sorry guys, I had to do some Christmas shopping, no one wished me a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays at all. Not that I would have minded either way.
Again, if I got side tracked, my point on the other holidays was, regardless of how they got started, now they are not Christian Holidays. That some of what people call Christian today isn't related at all.
I am not trying to decide who is and isn't Christian. As I said to start with, that is between them and God. But I do strongly feel that if you are a Christian, then your beliefs should manifest themselves in your life somehow. I'm am not limiting how they manifest themselves, nor am I saying that those manifestations should look the same as mine, nor conform to the traditional church model, but there should be some sort of affect on your life.
If I was raised in a country where the majority of the country was Buddhist, and I claimed to be Buddhist, but Buddhism didn't have any direct influence on my actions, my feeling, my thoughts or my decisions, I wouldn't say I was a true Buddhist.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: Again, if I got side tracked, my point on the other holidays was, regardless of how they got started, now they are not Christian Holidays. That some of what people call Christian today isn't related at all.
You have said this, but you haven't yet said anything that backs this up.
Nor have you said anything that bolsters your claim that Christians are being marginalized.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Please explain to me how Halloween, Marti Gras, and most holidays other than Christmas and Easter (as they are celebrated today) are in any way a Christian holidays. Not just having been started by Christians
The word "Marginalized" was an exageration used to get reaction. That being said, Christians have been push out of a lot of area's where they once had influence; schools, court rooms and now holiday greetings. This is why we feel like we have been marginalized and is why some people get upset about "Happy Holidays". It's just another reminder of how we are loosing our influence on todays culture.
I realize we are not a minority and as a whole still carry alot of clout, but it seems like every time you turn around some one is trying remove any sign Christianity in America.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
There are ways that Christians can celebrate all of those holidays in ways that are Christian, as long as we remember what it is that we are really doing. But I do agree that for many, the holidays have been watered-down and secularized.
But what people are missing is that Christianity's domination of Western and American culture is a big part of why the holidays have become less than what they should be. By almost shoving Christmas down the throats of everyone else, we, ourselves, rob it of its meaning. It is two sides of the same problem. Perhaps if we quit forcing Christianity into the public sphere, public schools, courtrooms, shopping malls, it will be easier for us to remember what is is supposed to be about.
And it is not about having clout.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SC Carver: The word "Marginalized" was an exageration used to get reaction. That being said, Christians have been push out of a lot of area's where they once had influence; schools, court rooms...
And well they should be. It's called separation of church and state.
[ December 21, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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quote:Perhaps if we quit forcing Christianity into the public sphere, public schools, courtrooms, shopping malls, it will be easier for us to remember what is supposed to be about.
I can agree with this completely. I know it may sound like from this thread that I want this country to go back to the 50's or something like that. But I really think that we Christians spend way too much time worrying about politics or only a few political issues, instead of looking for ways to go out and show people the love of Christ. If all the Christians in this country started doing their best to live like Christians instead of worrying about what the non Christians were doing I think our public image would take care of itself.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I also don't have a problem with Separation Of Church and State. It may get carried too far sometimes, but I certainly wouldn't want the government telling me how to worship.
I apologize for going off on a tangent. I was in a bad mood and am now stepping off of my soap box.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I'm really glad my work doesn't have a policy on holidy greetings and that I can say whatever I want to costumers. Which generally is nothing that isn't absolutely necessary.
I have found, though, that I automatically answer Merry Christmas to any holiday greeting. I'm the kind of person who needs time to process what the other person says and then formulate my reply, which really isn't possible when echanging casual holiday greetings with costumers. *shrugs* I'll apologize if they're offended, but since they always initiate the greeting, I don't see anything wrong with replying in the way that comes most naturally to me.
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