quote:Please explain to me how Halloween, Marti Gras, and most holidays other than Christmas and Easter (as they are celebrated today) are in any way a Christian holidays. Not just having been started by Christians
In practice, I don't think that they are--they're secular. Individual communities may celebrate them as Christian holidays, but the country as a whole does not.
That brings up a related point. Earlier in this thread, SC Carver, you described Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, and the Super Bowl as pagan. Why do you think that? I'd agree with you if you said that they were secular, but I'm not having much luck in seeing them as pagan. Are you using "pagan" as a synonym for "secular", or do you actually view these holidays as honoring some pantheon or another?
quote:If all the Christians in this country started doing their best to live like Christians instead of worrying about what the non Christians were doing I think our public image would take care of itself.
Now there I agree with you.
Can you imagine how much different the world would be if everyone who professed to be Christian started actually living by Jesus' teachings? Man, I'd like to live in that world.
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Secular would be the correct term. I don't believe I actually called them Pagan, just non-Christian. If I did, secular was what I meant.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I'm not sure I like you equating secular and non-Christian. I'm not a Christian, but I'm about as far from secular as you can get.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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But I doubt that you celebrate the secularized versions of Christmas or Easter, so you weren't who he was calling secular.
Edit: to put it another way, secular things are non-Christan, but not everything non-Christian is secular.
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Didn't mean to offend, I think I've done enough of that on this thread. I've always thought of secular as non-Christian, not as non-religous or faithful.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…
For what it's worth, SC Carver, you haven't offended me in the least, and while I don't think you've quite said exactly what you've set out to say in some of your posts in this thread, I think that you've been very gracious in clarifying and correcting yourself as you've gone along. You may be feeling a bit beaten up on, so let me just add that you're definitely someone who I've enjoyed interacting with here, and that I'm glad you're a part of the forum.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Well, today was my holiday of choice, and not one person wished me Happy Midwinter Solstice. In fact, I believe at the exact time of the Solstice, I was listening to my nieces sing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" at their school Christmas concert. The irony!
I've always used the word "Secular" to mean "opposite of Sacred", and vice versa, regardless of what kind of sacred, or sacred to whom. Christmas might be sacred to one person, and secular to another, even though they do exactly the same rituals.
Also, I would say Hallowe'en is as sacred/secular as Dec. 25 in that regard, only it's a Pagan/Secular split instead of a Christian/Secular split. I would agree that you could call October 31st a pagan (in the true sense of the word) holiday, at least as much as you can call Christmas a Christian holiday. The difference is that a lot of secular folks still say they celebrate "Christmas" whereas very few non-Pagans will call Hallowe'en Samhain/New Year. (However, some might, just as some Pagans may call it Hallowe'en or another name as well.)
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I disagree, Astaril. I think that Halloween is further removed from it's sacred origins than Christmas is. There are communities who celebrate it as a religious holiday, just as there are Christians that celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, sure, but it isn't uncommon for Christmas displays to contain overtly Christian imagery, for nativity plays to be put on in grade schools, for grade schools to put on performances of Christmas music that is clearly inspired by the birth of Jesus, etc. You really don't get anything equivalent to that on Halloween, that I can think of.
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Hmm. I didn't phrase that thought very clearly. I do agree that it is further removed in the general sense, and that people are much less aware of the religious significance it has for those who do celebrate it. By "as secular/sacred as Christmas", I meant that, just like Christmas, it is still an important religious holiday for some people while at the same time being vastly pervasive as a secular holiday for many others (in Canada/USA at least). Does that make more sense? (Basically, I was trying to say "those two things are both blue, and not green or yellow or another colour" but not "those two things are both the same shade of blue".)
There are a lot of pagan-origin traditions that still take place on Hallowe'en, but I think it's less obvious that they're based on old religious customs. Samhain isn't based so much on a story, like Christian Christmas is with the birth of Jesus. Everyone (or most everyone Western, I'd wager) knows the basic story of Jesus' birth. Fewer people probably know the myth behind jack-o-lanterns or why people apple-bob on Hallowe'en or where the tradition of dressing up in costumes and trick-or-treating comes from. Also, there's no central hero to the Pagan traditions like there is with Christmas and Jesus, so it's hard to compare the two holidays in that regard, when their focuses are so different.
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You know, I'm sure I don't know most of the Samhain backstory for Halloween. Would you be willing to share what you know? Of the three things you listed, I only know one of them.
quote: Well, today was my holiday of choice, and not one person wished me Happy Midwinter Solstice.
Well...I rather specifically included pagans in my holiday wishes. Posted yesterday on purpose to be on time. Could that count?
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quote:Originally posted by Astaril: Everyone (or most everyone Western, I'd wager) knows the basic story of Jesus' birth.
I've definately had a long conversation with my Indiana born and raised boyfriend about how no, Easter is not when Jesus was born, that's Christmas. Which then degenerated (from his point of view, I was enjoying myself, there's not that much that I know and he doesn't) into a discussion of the significance of both Easter and Christmas, because he had no idea.
I realize that's just one sample, but I was shocked that anyone could grow up in the US and have no idea what Christmas and Easter meant. Especially as his mother is nominally Christian.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Thanks, Kate! Of course it counts. I was meaning people in real life, in stores and whatnot; I wasn't really expecting it or anything! Also, offtopic a bit, I feel like I should mention I'm a little wary of the pagan label for myself as I'm not Wiccan, nor do I cast spells or heal myself with gemstones or try to divine the future and so forth, and the word "pagan" is still synonymous with many such things in a lot of minds.
Blacwolve, that's interesting! I've never met someone raised in Western culture that hasn't known either.
Noemon: Gladly! Nothing like derailing a Christmas thread to talk about Hallowe'en... It's actually really interesting just from a mythological point of view. I tried to find a good website about it, but a lot of the ones I found are very... well, non-scholarly. There's some information here. There's also some info here.
From my own head:
Basic background: The Celtic New Year begins Nov. 1st. The night of Samhain is a liminal time, between one year and the next, and also halfway between Mabon (Fall Equinox) and Winter Solstice. At such liminal times, the Celts believe the veils separating this world from the World of the Dead, and the Land of the Sidhe ("the good folk" or Tuatha De Danaan of Irish myth) are at their thinnest. (This also occurs at Beltaine, 6 months later in May).
Samhain celebrates the end of the harvest and the beginning of the new year. It is a 'fire festival'. Sacred bonfires were lit on hills where people would gather to celebrate. People would extinguish their hearths and relight them for the new year with fire from these bonfires, which they would carry in hollowed out turnips.
The dead could return on Samhain to visit their families, and so the custom was to set an empty place at dinner to honour them, and to leave food out at night for them as well. The Sidhe were also out in full force at this time, so in Ireland at least, food and milk was often left for them as well.
The traditions I mentioned:
Apple-bobbing was traditionally a means of divination, I believe. Being such a liminal time, Samhain was considered the best time of the year for divination of various means.
Jack-'o-Lanterns descend partly from the practice of carrying the new hearth-light home from the bonfire, and partly from the non-Pagan myth of Irish Jack. He tricked the Devil in life, and so was denied entrance to both Heaven and Hell upon death. Satan gave him a lighted coal to put in the turnip he'd been eating with which to light his way as he wandered earth for eternity.
Trick or treating: In medieval times, folks would go begging door-to-door for 'soul cakes', and in return for food would pray for that family's deceased. There's also question about whether trick or treating stems from the earlier practice of going round to houses to collect food and kindling for the bonfire and feast.
As for dressing up, there's the idea that people dressed up in order to confuse the Sidhe and the malevolent spirits that were out (this origin of dressing up is something I read from websites - I can't vouch for its truth).
Also, another interesting tradition is Guy Fawkes Day in the UK, which bears obvious similarities to the bonfire feasts of Samhain.
Whew! That was exceedingly long! Hope it was mildly interesting.
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Hi guys I just got an email on this topic. In case you don't feel like reading the whole thing. It basically is a Christian calling for Christians not to get upset about the whole "Happy Holidays" thing. Its interesting because I think I've seen half a dozen other emails calling for people to get upset about it.
quote: December 22, 2005
Holiday Warsby John Fischer This Christmas, Christians have been caught in the throes of a war on semantics. We are seeing and hearing more “Happy Holidays” and less “Merry Christmases.” The beloved “Christmas tree” has turned into being a “Holiday tree." One television ad plays regularly with carolers singing: “We Wish You A Happy Holiday” to the tune of “We Wish You A Merry Christmas.”
One can surely see why a general mood of fighting back could prevail. I have seen numerous emails floating around with pictures of Christmas trees lamenting the secularization of Christmas. The underlying tone of these messages so far has been one of anger and partisanship, as if to say: “They can't take our Christmas away from us!”
It's an interesting question and one we need to consider seriously. If this a battle, on what level do we fight it? If someone wishes us “Happy Holidays,” do we respond with a hearty “Merry Christmas,” thus striking a blow for the kingdom of God?
I'm not so sure it's as important as all this. After all, it's Christ that is the issue, not Christmas. I don't even think Jesus cares very much about what we or anyone else call an evergreen with lights on it in December. Jesus never cared much about labels anyway; He always cared more about what was in the heart.
Here's how you put Christ back into Christmas: you celebrate Him as Lord of your life and ruler of your heart, and you love even those who want to take Christmas out of the Holiday equation. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it (John 3:17). He came to forgive sins -- mine… yours… everybody's. Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Let's not let religious pride get in the way of the core message of the gospel. It's never been us against them; it's us for them. We mustn't forget that Jesus came to die for the very people who are trying to secularize our country.
In our zeal to keep Christ in Christmas, lets be careful not to alienate the very people who need Him the most -- those who don't know Him. People are more likely to be set on the road to salvation by loving, caring believers who are secure in the hope of the real Christ living in their lives, and whose faith is brighter than any Christmas tree.
It's what's in your heart that really counts this Christmas. Let's not get so taken up with fighting to save a name that we forget to live out the reality of the hope of Christ to the world. If people end up encountering the real Christ of Christmas, it will matter little what we end up calling the holiday itself.
John Fischer is the Senior Writer for Purpose Driven Life Daily Devotionals. He resides in Southern California with his wife, Marti and son, Chandler. They also have two adult children, Christopher and Anne. John is a published author and popular speaker.
quote: I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.
So did she want you to wish a Merry Christmas to people who dob't celebrate Christmas or did she expect you to be able to correctly guess that she did?
Shouldn't good wishes (like gifts) be tailored to fit the recipient? And, like with gifts, when in doubt, giving greetings that are "one-size-fits-all" makes a certain amount of sense.
That's what I thought, anyway....she obviously didn't agree.
And I couldn't care less...as a matter of fact I rather enjoyed the exchange. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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It's actually really interesting just from a mythological point of view. I tried to find a good website about it, but a lot of the ones I found are very... well, non-scholarly. There's ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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