posted
OK, I withdraw about what I said earlier about the link being false. I've only witnessed religious circumsisions. I figured hospital ones must be even less painful since it's in a, well, hospital. Apparently I was wrong. I've seen the video of when I was circumsised (in a Jewish ritual) and I saw my brothers' circumsisions and it didn't seem all that bad. I was wrong. My bad. My opinion still stands about the analogy, though.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
It's funny that so many people say that they want to have the child circumcised so it would fit in. We've had this discussion on another forum and there were medical pictures linked that showed the difference which was the first time I'd ever seen an uncircumcised penis. Has anyone, circumcised or not, ever had someone draw attention to the cut/uncut state of their penis?
I've been so sheltered.
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quote:Has anyone, circumcised or not, ever had someone draw attention to the cut/uncut state of their penis?
I'd have something to say about this, but I have the feeling my husband might object to my sharing it.
Actually, he says he doesn't. I was fascinated when I saw his because I'd only ever had extended exposure to my brother's before, and my brother's uncircumcised. But I have a feeling that wifely attention wasn't what you were talking about.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob the Lawyer: Has anyone, circumcised or not, ever had someone draw attention to the cut/uncut state of their penis?
Other than my parents and girlfriends? No.
I have some other things I'd say, but I think they'd be outside the PG-13 territory Hatrack stays within.
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posted
I was circumcised, and I have to say that, first of all, I have no memory of it, and secondly, I tend to laugh at people who get worked up about it. Especially when they use emotionally-charged words like "mutilation". I've lived with it for twenty-five years now, and I am no less whole or less manly or less whatever for it. I am, in fact, completely indifferent to it.
I also don't understand any of the arguments based on "fitting in". Fitting in with what? I, for one, don't go around looking at other guys' penises and taking note of whose looks like mine and whose is different. Maybe I'm just weird.
I've never actually seen one that wasn't circumcised--but again, that's primarily because I don't go around looking. Sure, I could take a peek next time I'm in the locker room at the gym. But why? I don't care what they look like, and that would be a weird thing to do anyway.
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quote:I tend to laugh at people who get worked up about it. Especially when they use emotionally-charged words like "mutilation". I've lived with it for twenty-five years now, and I am no less whole or less manly or less whatever for it. I am, in fact, completely indifferent to it.
Well, as a mother, I have no interest in anything that causes my baby unnecessary pain or discomfort. Even for a second. Even if he'll never remember it.
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posted
Well, that's your choice. And I've certainly never done a scientific study--or even so much as brought it up to a male friend--to see how many people remember the pain or resent the result. I can only give you my own personal opinion that it's nothing to get worked up about.
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posted
For the kid, I'd agree, they don't usually care either way about the end result. (Except the ones for whom the procedure goes horribly wrong.) But as a parent, it's a whole different kind of concern. I'm old enough to remember every trauma my children go through, minor or temporary or not.
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posted
My two cents probably counts for very little in this case, but I'll give it anyway: I once dated a very nice, very hygienic boy who happened to be uncircumcised. Although he kept that area very clean, I could never quite get used to it (I'm sure, had our relationship been stronger/more mature, it really wouldn't have mattered one way or another). At the time, however, it led to some initial awkward moments in our relationship, and he often said he wished he had been circumcised as an infant. Most other guys in my general age group (17-25) that I've spoken to about this situation have felt much the same. Call me shallow, but I'm likely to have a better initial reaction to a circumcised guy than an uncircumcised one. It's just what I'm used to seeing. And I know that as a girl I can't really relate to the guys discussing this, I'm just trying to give my point of view.
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posted
Same here. I'm glad I got a circumcision, for Jewish reasons, when I was young, for pain and humilation reasons. I never even thought about what it would be like if I was uncircumcised until today. It just never mattered to me.
Edit: I'm a really slow typer. This was in response to Verily.
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posted
Avadaru, I expect that my sons will probably marry a girl who hasn't seen other ones (except perhaps her father's, fleetingly, or her brothers' as small children, like me.) So I would hope that situation wouldn't come up.
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posted
(Oh, and according to my brother, most of the guys his age he's caught a glimpse of are uncircumcised-- about 70-75% is his estimate. It depends where you live.)
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posted
Saw a talk by a nursing student who surveyed local hospital practice. They're supposed to apply topical anaesthetic, and sometimes they do, but they usually don't wait for it to take effect. Maybe it's just in my locality. I don't know what makes adults so careless of avoidable pain in infants.
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I'm reading this thread and impressed with how civil it has been. Much more so than I expected, especially given the recent atmosphere here.
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posted
Just for the record, (and I haven't read any medical journals or studied up on the matter, this is just my experience) "the procedure" isn't always a "cut" or "mutilation". My son had what they called a "bell" and my husband was there when they put it on him. He said it wasn't traumatic to our son and it wasn't a big deal. We treated it as we did the umbilical stump and the bell with the foreskin fell off in a couple days. I, too (Verily), find it strange to be such an emotionally charged topic.
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Fahim was circumcised for religious reasons, but in discussing whether we'd circumcise our kids if we had any, we both agreed that we wouldn't. It's not necessary given the risks, and if the child wants it done, he can do it when he's old enough to make the decision for himself.
I've also never seen an uncircumcised penis that I know of. Or recall.
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quote: Avadaru, I expect that my sons will probably marry a girl who hasn't seen other ones
I don't mean any disrespect, so please try not to take offense, but what you expect from your children and what actually happens don't necessarily end up being the same. I'm just trying to cover everything here.
I personally would want to spare my son any potential humiliation later in life, but I don't think one way is right or wrong.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I've seen several say he should be allowed to choose to have it done later if he wants.
My husband & I were sort of "on the fence" and trying to decide before our first son was born. When the doctor indicated that occasionally (rarely) they need to be circumcized later for medical reasons, we decided to do it at birth. I REALLY didn't want to have to do it when they were older and would remember it, or be in a lot of pain. I mean I know babies feel pain, but it seems they don't feel it as long, or something; my boys both recovered really quickly, but I understand it takes longer for older males to stop hurting.
I didn't want them to ever have to come back to me and say, "Why didn't you get this done when I was a baby?!"
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Well, if it's going to be done, it should be as a baby. Of course babies can feel pain, but at that stage the memory of it will be very brief. I shudder to imagine having to go through it now.
Oh, and somebody mentioned the so-called "female circumcision" earlier. I just want to say that that is a completely different procedure, done for completely different purposes. So that's not even remotely a fair comparison.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I know many, many, many girls like Ava who are just not used to seeing an uncircumcised one. Whether you are against doing things to "conform to the norm" or not, the standard is still there (at least in the areas I've lived in - there are certainly areas where the opposite is true, I'm sure).
Wikipedia (which is not always the most reliable source) states that males with an uncircumcised penis are 10 times more prone to UTIs than those with circumcisions.
On the flip side, what I've gathered over the years is that very often guys with uncircumcised penises are able to hold off on ejaculation longer during sex - which may lead to more fulfilling sex for everyone involved.
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quote:males with an uncircumcised penis are 10 times more prone to UTIs [. . .] guys with uncircumcised penises are able to hold off on ejaculation longer during sex
Well, there ya go. You win some, you lose some.
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Actually, I don't think that number is completely accurate. I'll check later. (In the middle of SVU right now.)
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(But very quickly, Babycenter doesn't cite numbers, but says that although the risk for UTIs is higher in uncircumcised males, it is at most 1% for any male, uncircumcised or not. That's less than the risk for a lot of things, and UTIs are very treatable.)
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Human Papilloma Virus causes the large majority of all cases of cervical cancer anyways (I've heard 93% to 97%)--And recently an HPV vaccine was shown to be successful at nearly eradicating the possibility for cervical cancer, although the treatment is not yet approved in the US. Also, cleaning is no problem.
quote:BobTheLawyer: Has anyone, circumcised or not, ever had someone draw attention to the cut/uncut state of their penis?
I don't think anybody really cares.. The most I've ever heard of is a little high school teasing.
quote:ketchupqueen: Avadaru, I expect that my sons will probably marry a girl who hasn't seen other ones (except perhaps her father's, fleetingly, or her brothers' as small children, like me.) So I would hope that situation wouldn't come up.
I wouldn't worry for a moment about it. No offense to Avadaru and erosomniac, but I think their experience is very very rare. I've never heard of anybody being humiliated because of this particular decision that their parents made anyway. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but around here (PacNW) I've never heard of anybody caring either way.
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quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: Well, chreese...to bad your father didn't bother saving his semen.
Hanging on to traditions and chosing things which are not at all needed for your infant to be pure.
You're fighting a lost war here, if you're saying your child will suffer because he didn't follow his fathers tradition it can be considered a failure.
My father lost his virginity when he was 16 years old, lived his life up til his 20's and he also sniffed glue, did some minor drugs and was an alcoholic for a good period of his life.
Does that mean that I have to **** up my youth as well to be considered a proper offspring?
<snip>
Or not. Putting sarcasm aside: No, it's not hard. Please do not hang on to traditions, you're not helping your children.
quote:Originally posted by luthe: Yeah, cause that damn foreskin is always in the way.</sarcasm> [/QB]
*grin*
quote:Originally posted by Will B: My non-expert opinion is that * elective cosmetic surgery on babies is not a great idea * if he wants it done, he can do it when he's older; but he can't un-do it
To the point.
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: I am very firmly of the belief that irreversible procedures should not be inflicted on anyone without their consent. It is possible to get circumcised as an adult, and some men take advantage of that.
I have nothing more to add.
And a slam attack ! I have nothing else to add either. I find it unhealty to remove ones foreskin based on the "höh, I did it meself, so yuo shalt be cut as welleth" reasoning.
[Edit: circumcised some over the line portions of the post. --PJ]
[ December 08, 2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posts: 21 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Just wanted to say I am uncircumcised and live in the US. All of my friends are circumcised, some for religious reasons some not.
I have never had a girl express any confusions, disgust, horror, or even a little unease at my penis. It just hasn't come up.
I am very firmly of the belief that irreversible procedures should not be inflicted on anyone without their consent. It is possible to get circumcised as an adult, and some men take advantage of that.
I have nothing more to add.
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posted
BadGuy, it isn't necessary to use words like dick or cock. It also isn't necessary to yell, which is what bolded all caps look like.
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quote:Originally posted by jennabean: I care. I don't think I'd tease, but I definitely have my preference.
Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with having a preference one way or another. I imagine that very few males have any way of objectively evaluating what their preference would be due to lack of experience one way or another, but I imagine that if one were to have the required experience, he would prefer it the natural way. Not to be crude, but I bet ya'd lose a lot of 'sensitivity' to be so unprotected while wearing anything but silk underwear for year after year.
I don't really think that many people who have the procedure as an infant have very many regrets about it. And I suppose only the rare person who contracts a UTI cares about it the other way... So probably more thought has gone into this issue than is necessary.
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quote: It also isn't necessary to yell, which is what bolded all caps look like.
(Unless someone implies that Heinz is not the Only True Ketchup. Then you have every right to yell in all bolded caps.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Just wanted to say I am uncircumcised and live in the US. All of my friends are circumcised, some for religious reasons some not.
Hmm. All of your friends are circumcised? You and your friends must be very close, or you only make friends with people you shower with.
I mean, I couldn't even say what percentage of my friends is circumcised and I imagine on average I'm way more curious to know than the next guy. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
(As a point of intrest, my friends-- mostly male-- and I discussed circumcision as teenagers. Among them, about 2/3 were uncircumcised, excluding the 3 that were circumcised for religious reasons. But it was a very, very small sample group. )
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Quote from Badguy: "You should not choose things for your childrens "assumed" wellness."
(I hope I did this quote thing right...being a newbie and all) Edit to say that I didn't but now see the "" button...darn.
I was just wondering if you are a parent, Badguy, because in reality, be it right or wrong, this IS what parents do. Hopefully we're more often right than wrong!
Posts: 697 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
KQ, Unless you plan on your sons being home schooled and never visiting a gym, you might reconsider.
Just through years of locker rooms I've seen hundreds of penises.
Not trying to, just one of those things you can't help when everyone's getting naked together. Over the course of 10+ years. And of course, I don't think anything's more homophobic that changing while staring at the ceiling lest you catch another guy's junk in your peripherals.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I survived growing up, uncircumcised (while my dad was), without much of a problem. My wife does think it's a bit weird, but then, she thinks the concept of a penis is a bit weird, aesthetically.
She certainly has no problem, we, uh, get right down to it.
--- My children will be circumcised, since my wife is Jewish (it won't be a bris though, the thought grosses her out), and my only strong objections were that they wouldn't look like me. And that's just plain selfish. The health concerns aren't strong enough either way (IMO) to really be a factor... They can be used to rationalize your pre-existing wish, but it's best to come to grips with those pre-existing ideas, rather than throw statistics around.
posted
It all comes down to the wishes of the parents. Even though my sons have been, I don't think it will matter much whether they were or not; since circumcision is becoming less common than it was generations ago, there will be both types in their groups of friends and it really won't matter. And their wives will get used to it.
I'm normally on the side of "don't mutilate your body unnecessarily," but in this case I don't think it's harmful, since I really do believe it was commanded by God at one time as a sign of a covenant. (Weird sign, huh?) Anyway I really doubt whether it will matter much to the child; it'll just be "the way things are."
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: My children will be circumcised, since my wife is Jewish (it won't be a bris though, the thought grosses her out), and my only strong objections were that they wouldn't look like me. And that's just plain selfish.
Too bad she doesn't want a bris. Having seen it done both ways, I much prefer a bris, which I think is much easier on the baby. She doesn't have to stand right there while it happens, you know. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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